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Post by Mister Chase on Sept 30, 2022 13:04:25 GMT -6
I tend to feel like tubes do a decent job of this effect. I'm using my Sebatron Axis 200vu on the 2bus of a track at the moment(solo intimate felt piano) and enjoy what it brings to the table.
Are there any processors that seem particularly good at this? I know the Black Box is a thing, and the plug in seems decent. Tupe is very nice but it feels like the Sebatron does a better job with that width/depth thing. I would just prefer another option or something that could live on the 2 bus and not be fiddled with so much as is the case with the Sebatron being used as preamps.
Does a pair of tube pultecs do this?
Any non-tube equipment? Silver Bullet?
I feel like part of this might be the subtle changes you get in the analog world between L/R. The plugins are dead-on the same L/R...
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Post by indiehouse on Sept 30, 2022 15:44:14 GMT -6
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Post by Tbone81 on Sept 30, 2022 16:12:16 GMT -6
This doesn’t help but the second I read your headline i thought, “he needs to hear a sebatron pre across the 2bus!” Lol…turns out you’re way ahead of me.
Like you, I love the sound of my seb Pres on the stereo bus…and also like you, hate fiddling with the controls to get it stereo match.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2022 16:17:46 GMT -6
Klanghelm SDRR 2 Tube and Desk modes
Drawmer 1968 is cool but far too colored for a lot of pianos
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Post by kristoferharris on Sept 30, 2022 18:08:08 GMT -6
When I want the thing you're describing (which is often), I turn to the Manley Vari mu and run it with the threshold fully open, drive the input until it spits out some glow. Rarely use it as a compressor.
The Pulse pultecs without any EQ going on are very open and unimposing and really don't stamp a whole lot into the sound in the same way that something like a HG-2 does. The HG-2 tucks in the tops and bottoms and it most cases gives a presentation of more depth but maybe less width. More complexity and more for me to worry about. It's a really great sounding box but also super fussy with the gear that might go before or after it. Something that isn't mentioned in comments I've read about it. I don't own a pultec of any description and have never been all that into them. So there's probably some bias there.
A touch of red silk on the RND MBP can be a really gratifying thing on a mix. I'd imagine the RND silk function is the same across the line. You could think about a pair of the pre's or whatever else they put it in.
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Post by kristoferharris on Sept 30, 2022 18:15:18 GMT -6
Sorry, not really paying attention. Noticed you're specifically talking about using it on piano. I think I'd make similar comments still.
I agree that the 1968 is a very cool sound and in my opinion more overtly tubey than a lot of gear with tonnes of tubes in them. Wouldn't be the one for felt piano though I don't suspect.
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Post by smashlord on Sept 30, 2022 19:06:32 GMT -6
I like API 550As if I need some color on the 2 bus. No EQ, just running signal through them.
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Post by robo on Sept 30, 2022 20:55:26 GMT -6
I like recording piano through my Sebatron or Hamptone pres (both of which are tube+transformer). I usually also go through a pair of RND 542’s also, which do lovely things on piano.
Depending on the style your going for, some tasty compression might also do the trick. VLAII is good on a budget.
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Post by Mister Chase on Sept 30, 2022 21:10:50 GMT -6
That does look really cool. Did not know that existed!
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Post by ab101 on Sept 30, 2022 21:11:37 GMT -6
David Hill personally demoed his Titan compressors for me using a solo grand piano recording and it was phenomenal. I really like the Silver Bullet for grand piano and the bonus is one can use the Silver Bullet for so much more!
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Post by Mister Chase on Sept 30, 2022 21:14:00 GMT -6
This doesn’t help but the second I read your headline i thought, “he needs to hear a sebatron pre across the 2bus!” Lol…turns out you’re way ahead of me. Like you, I love the sound of my seb Pres on the stereo bus…and also like you, hate fiddling with the controls to get it stereo match. Hah! Isn't that funny. We're in the same boat. Great sounding gear, that Sebatron is. Have to run tones through it to get it set and all that. No stepped knobs. It would make the most sense to have one just for the bus but then what a waste of great pre's. Just doesn't make sense. However that is what I am using now on this project. So maybe it'll have to stay there for a while. I also replaced the JJ tubes in the 200vu with NOS Mullards. A little more colored and dark but again, I like it for preamp duties. I might like a more hi-fi tube for the 2 bus...
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Post by Mister Chase on Sept 30, 2022 21:14:49 GMT -6
Klanghelm SDRR 2 Tube and Desk modes Drawmer 1968 is cool but far too colored for a lot of pianos Hmm I have SDRR. I will mess with it. Thanks for reminding me of that one!
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Post by Mister Chase on Sept 30, 2022 21:19:25 GMT -6
When I want the thing you're describing (which is often), I turn to the Manley Vari mu and run it with the threshold fully open, drive the input until it spits out some glow. Rarely use it as a compressor. The Pulse pultecs without any EQ going on are very open and unimposing and really don't stamp a whole lot into the sound in the same way that something like a HG-2 does. The HG-2 tucks in the tops and bottoms and it most cases gives a presentation of more depth but maybe less width. More complexity and more for me to worry about. It's a really great sounding box but also super fussy with the gear that might go before or after it. Something that isn't mentioned in comments I've read about it. I don't own a pultec of any description and have never been all that into them. So there's probably some bias there. A touch of red silk on the RND MBP can be a really gratifying thing on a mix. I'd imagine the RND silk function is the same across the line. You could think about a pair of the pre's or whatever else they put it in. Oh nice. Manley Vari Mu. I will have to keep that in mind. That does seem like a bit of a magic box. Also, did not realize that about the Pultecs. Good to know. The HG-2 seems like it does quite a lot, and can be set for a lot of color... so maybe not. The red silk on the 542 pair I have is pretty nice. Maybe I will revisit that. Possibly in line with my Sebatron... hmmmmmm. Thanks!
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Post by Mister Chase on Sept 30, 2022 21:20:37 GMT -6
I like API 550As if I need some color on the 2 bus. No EQ, just running signal through them. Perhaps I need to build another CAPI BT50 then... and try it on the bus. Thanks!
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Post by Mister Chase on Sept 30, 2022 21:21:55 GMT -6
I like recording piano through my Sebatron or Hamptone pres (both of which are tube+transformer). I usually also go through a pair of RND 542’s also, which do lovely things on piano. Depending on the style your going for, some tasty compression might also do the trick. VMPII is good on a budget. I have a pair of 542s but the style of this setup makes them a tad much with tape effect in, however I may revisit the silk red thing! I definitely need dual mono comps separate mono units for this to work it seems...
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Post by Mister Chase on Sept 30, 2022 21:22:33 GMT -6
David Hill personally demoed his Titan compressors for me using a solo grand piano recording and it was phenomenal. I really like the Silver Bullet for grand piano and the bonus is one can use the Silver Bullet for so much more! Hmm I don't know of the Titan compressors. I will check them out thank you! Silver bullet seems to be so useful that it might be inevitable...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2022 21:52:26 GMT -6
Klanghelm SDRR 2 Tube and Desk modes Drawmer 1968 is cool but far too colored for a lot of pianos Hmm I have SDRR. I will mess with it. Thanks for reminding me of that one! Try this on your stereo bus with SDRR2 Starting settings: HQ+ mode for linear phase oversampling filters Desk mode Stereo Medium crosstalk 3 Stages 1-2 drive try to hit 0 VU. Use the upper right thing to make it so you can hit 0vu on the meter without changing the volume levels.
You should notice a major veil and receding stereo image right away. that's your depth. Now you dial it back or increase it. The "stage" switch will bring forward the image. 2 is much less noticeable and 1 is subtle. 3 is instant depth/veil. Dual mono instead of stereo will make it wider more crosstalk will add a weird saturation type effect that can work. drive will add more crunch. If too much crunch, reduce drive or input.
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Post by Mister Chase on Sept 30, 2022 22:16:52 GMT -6
Hmm I have SDRR. I will mess with it. Thanks for reminding me of that one! Try this on your stereo bus with SDRR2 Starting settings: HQ+ mode for linear phase oversampling filters Desk mode Stereo Medium crosstalk 3 Stages 1-2 drive try to hit 0 VU. Use the upper right thing to make it so you can hit 0vu on the meter without changing the volume levels.
You should notice a major veil and receding stereo image right away. that's your depth. Now you dial it back or increase it. The "stage" switch will bring forward the image. 2 is much less noticeable and 1 is subtle. 3 is instant depth/veil. Dual mono instead of stereo will make it wider more crosstalk will add a weird saturation type effect that can work. drive will add more crunch. If too much crunch, reduce drive or input.
Nice. Just tried that. That is nice. Desk most seems to create some of that sense of space and depth just a bit in 3 stage mode. Thank you! Have you found the same thing to be possible with Tupe? So far I haven't gotten it. I can get nice saturation of course, but there seems to be more going on with image in SDRR and the Sebatron.
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Post by Mister Chase on Oct 1, 2022 8:33:12 GMT -6
One plugin that seems to have this effect to my ears is the Kazrog True Iron. The Western Electric setting(it's at 1 0clock on the dial) does some nice sizing up and spatial things.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 1, 2022 10:49:24 GMT -6
Not tube and shocked Bill hasn’t mentioned it but a Silver Bullet.
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Post by robo on Oct 1, 2022 11:23:55 GMT -6
I like recording piano through my Sebatron or Hamptone pres (both of which are tube+transformer). I usually also go through a pair of RND 542’s also, which do lovely things on piano. Depending on the style your going for, some tasty compression might also do the trick. VMPII is good on a budget. I have a pair of 542s but the style of this setup makes them a tad much with tape effect in, however I may revisit the silk red thing! I definitely need dual mono comps separate mono units for this to work it seems... Depending on the mics and preamp settings, I can see the 542’s being too strong of a sauce for solo piano. ART VLAII (what I meant to suggest) can be run dual mono, and although mine has some mods, I can vouch that it is really nice for vibey piano. If cost isn’t a concern, there are of course lots of great opto/vari mu comps that’ll do the trick. A pair of APA Leviathans are very flexible compression-wise and add a nice polished sheen.
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Post by Mister Chase on Oct 1, 2022 11:43:15 GMT -6
Not tube and shocked Bill hasn’t mentioned it but a Silver Bullet. Indeed. Curious about its effect on spatial sense...
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Post by drbill on Oct 1, 2022 12:31:19 GMT -6
Not tube and shocked Bill hasn’t mentioned it but a Silver Bullet. Indeed. Curious about its effect on spatial sense... I can speak to this if anyone wants. I've tried all the plugins mentioned. Honestly, they rarely get used and never on mix bus when they do. I have 8 Silver Bullets - 3 of the the newer mk2's, which are especially killer for height / width and dimension (the A and Aspect Ratio excell on this), and 5 of the originals which get used on individual instruments/vocals and busses primarily. I have the Manley VariMu which primarily gets used on Piano during mixing, and for mastering duties on final mixes pre SBmk2 (again) and Miad LCPQ4040's - very rarely to never on the mix buss during mixing. I have ZOD IDDI's which live on the 2 buss after the Silver Bullet mk2's 99% of the time during mixing. The ZOD IDDI's are incredible, insanely affordable for what they do, and they are used here constantly for lending that "tube" vibe. When I just need a tube vibe and don't need compression, they get the call over the Manley's, Coil CA70's, Locomotive 14B's, Weight Tanks, and 286A's, VComps, Tube EQP's, etc.. If I need to go very retro, the Coil's or VComps can come into play. The 14B's are very cool, but bring things to the front, which kind of works against me when mixing. Perfect for vocals for me. For instant mix goodness, the SBmk2's followed by the ZOD's instantly get me 150% further than anything I have ever tried ITB. Instantly - just my standard settings on the mk2 with the ZODs. So easy and simple it feels like cheating. Always easy, very rarely to never do they ever get in the way of the musical output. And rarely do I even have to twist a knob. They just work. I prefer the ZOD's over the Manley on the mix buss for size - although I must say, I've never tried the above technique of turning the threshold all the way up and not using it for compression - just box tone. That's sounds interesting, but I'm pretty familiar with the Manley's box tone, and for work flow and max dollar impact, I'd rather use the Manley on Piano and the ZOD's on mix buss. The Manley VariMu has been my absolute favorite piano compressor of all time. It's got high headroom so it doesn't crap out on transient hits, and it softens up ITB VSTi pianos that can easily get harsh. The softening it gives on the 2Bus in not what I'm looking for these days. The ZOD's give me some size that seems unique to tube gear, and the SB can open the mix up a bit more with it's AIR EQ if they get too "tubey" for a particular song. I have not tried the LTL Pentodes in the mk2's. I really should have. Nobody tell Brad. Hahaha! I'm enjoying the API>NEVE>SSL topology that it comes standard with though and am reticent to swap out the SSL for a tube mojo amp. Never been a big SSL fan, but honestly, the SSL circuit in the SB is pretty special for what it adds. The aspect ratio on the mk2 has really upped my mixing game considerably in terms of width/height - and I thought I was pretty good before mk2. LOL That's my thoughts. If you have any other questions, fire away. I use all the above every day when mixing. (Which is most days lately)
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Post by Mister Chase on Oct 1, 2022 12:37:40 GMT -6
I have a pair of 542s but the style of this setup makes them a tad much with tape effect in, however I may revisit the silk red thing! I definitely need dual mono comps separate mono units for this to work it seems... Depending on the mics and preamp settings, I can see the 542’s being too strong of a sauce for solo piano. ART VLAII (what I meant to suggest) can be run dual mono, and although mine has some mods, I can vouch that it is really nice for vibey piano. If cost isn’t a concern, there are of course lots of great opto/vari mu comps that’ll do the trick. A pair of APA Leviathans are very flexible compression-wise and add a nice polished sheen. Yea, this is a felted piano very close mic'd and meant to be somewhat noisy a la Nils Fraham/Olafur Arnalds etc. It's quite heavy from the start. Did some testing this morning and 542 tape was a bit much. Brought up stuff I was fighting. Silk red was pretty nice. So is SDRR actually. Sebatron seems to be the one doing it for me but I think part of that is it's frequency curve which is pretty mid scooped. Quite a bit of rise starting around 5khz. Some real lows being boosted so the smiley might be giving me a sense of size. RE: Art VLAII - I think I had some experience on a similar piece being used years ago in a vocal chain. Will keep the Leviathans in mind.
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Post by sean on Oct 1, 2022 13:56:57 GMT -6
Klanghelm is interesting in that it seems to do one of the things a desk does, which is add a bit of crosstalk which weirdly makes things wider but also more connected. But it doesn’t really have a “sound” or “box tone” to me
I’ve been interested in grabbing another ZOD to use on a mix buss…and I guess a Silver Bullet 😆
It’s a constant chase for what we are wanting to hear
I’m mixing a record and it’s been all in the box and for fun I thought I’d stem it out on a the Trident 80 at the studio. I liked the in the box mix better…which was a bit surprising and has kind of got me off the idea of a summing mixer and back to something like the Silver Bullet which just adds some tone and transformers.
Eventually I’m going to get my Auditronics hooked up again. I will say with outboard/a console is it nice just grabbing an EQ and being like “that’s better”. The Auditronics would be good for that since it’s just a couple frequencies per band (if you’ve used the Purple Audio ODD that what they are based on). I remember the last time I had it hooked up I pulled up a session and just did a quick mix and was like “oh, that was easy”
Anyway.
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