2-bus Tube/transforme equipment for 3d soundstage/depth etc?

What do you think the reasons are for that?  I know you said the SB is like cheating, so of course, one should be all for something that makes the end result sound better and achievable faster, but is it just because of the extra "stuff" imparted on the sound by consoles and all that stuff?  Did people not tend to use the 2254's on a Neve console on the busses?

In the 70's, 80's, and into the 90's, it just wasn't "in vogue".  We hadn't arrived there yet.  The sonics of "mixing" were what they had been for years.  Tape and Consoles.  That was what was used, that's what generally got you there, and for most, that was good enough.  The huge racks of outboard came later.  You'd be amazed at the humble outboard collections of many of the studios in the 70's and into the early 80's.  The early 80's is when "outboard" started to grow and be a serious "thing".  The sound of "vintage" in large part is the sound of distortion, saturation, transient's being clipped off, etc. by transformer in analog gear and tape.  Of course, there were engineers that were VERY good at it, and others that made records that sounded like crap.  Same as today.

In any particular production path, a signal probably went thru a dozen or more transformers before making it to a final mix.  This is not achieved with ANY stand alone mic pre, EQ or compressor these days, and as time progressed in the 80's, chip based technology started to do away with a lot of the transformers, and the sonics began to change.  (some would say for the worse)

As I eased into the studio world in the early 80's, I never really saw anyone putting anything on the 2 bus aside from the (very) occasional compressor or maybe a pair of pultec's.  That realm of production was almost always left to the mastering engineers.  As we moved to DAW land in the 90's - especially with the initial 16 bit converters - folks figured out it didn't sound the same, and started in on the hunt to make things sound "like they used to" - "like a record".  For me, that started with doing something "wrong" - putting mic pre's on the 2 buss.  Later that evolved into a more ergonomic and better approach with the Silver Bullet.  I guess that search still continues for a lot of folks as 2 buss chains are a real thing now.

Even in 2014 - only 8 years ago - when we introduced the first Silver Bullet prototypes in LA at AES, no one knew what it was or what it was supposed to do - including us to some degree I suppose.  LOL. Buss saturation was not a thing as recent as 10 years ago.  At least no one had "defined" it and put products to market to solve the problems.  When I started putting API then CAPI and NEVE mic pre's on the 2 buss people thought I was crazy.  Now, many can't work without something in that position of the production chain.  Some people are still doing the mic pre thing from conversations I had with folks online even though many sophisticated products have evolved in the last 10 years.  Some of the 2 buss chains I see are insane.  6-10 pieces on the 2 buss.  All to achieve that "old school" sound and control for the most part.

"Wrong" is only wrong if it sounds bad.  The ZOD IDDI's are a great case in point.  They were designed to be a DI.  Now there are guys essentially making consoles out of them.  LOL. Including a lot of guys who use them on the 2 buss like I do.

So more directly to your question, yes, in Neve and SSL consoles there were often compressors, but they were not always used.  As a matter of fact, when working under the old school guys who are now mostly gone, they were not used more often than they were used in the studio's I grew up in.  (Plus, don't forget, not all studio's had Neve 80's and SSL 4000's.). And when used, they were mostly used for what they were designed for - clipping a couple dB off the peaks.  LOL. Not for their saturation or sonic imprint - which is how I use compressors for today.  It's as important as their dynamic limiting range for me.

So it's been an evolution over the years as engineers look for new, better, and unique ways to achieve the sound they hear in their heads.  Hope that answers your question a bit.  Sorry for the book....  

Mike- my problem with the Tubecore 3U is that it I'm looking to seriously drive my input to get that 60s sizzle and distortion like on old jazz albums. The 3U has an input that goes from 1 to 24, but the output knob will only let me attenuate down to -12. So that's 12 db (or whatever) of gain that I'll never be able to use because I can't turn the output down more. The tubecore 500s are set up with the input and output knobs each going from 1-10. It seems, at least to my ignorant ass, more balanced and easier to achieve what I want to achieve.


I started a whole other thread here asking "what happens when you seriously drive the Tubecore 3U, and nobody knew because oddly, none of the owners had ever tried it. No youtube videos show anybody pushing that input knob. However there are several videos of people driving the tubecore 500 to the point of distortion. That's why I think I would prefer the 500 over tbe 3U, but I'm willing to be talked out of that opinion if anybody would overdrive a 3u for me and let me hear what it sounds like.

Saw the same test, and agree about the Tubecore.  I also like the tone of the VCL Varis, which I ended up getting a nice deal on and purchasing.

Thank you, he has them listed on his website now, I’ll grab some! Are you running mic pre’s after the ZOD’s when running them on 2-bus?

Thank you for that, DrBill

I wanted that kind of insight and conversation about this.  I first dabbled in multitrack recording in the mid 2000s.  Guess that makes sense as someone born in '84.  I had tape recorder stuff growing up but any real recording I did was with a DAW.

Looking back as you are now, you can definitely see the sea change and evolution of the 2 buss.  I never made records in those days but I could tell things were certainly different sounding now.

It's interesting partly because as one learns their equipment they are better able to predict the sonic outcome of certain gear.  Which seems important to saving time and getting better results when recording.  X mic with Y preamp on Z source = approximately A.  So you just had to know that a 67 would sound a certain way on a vocal going through a certain 80 series console onto a certain kind of tape machine with tape formula and alignment etc.  I suppose all the aformentioned things that the sound went through helped in some cases but not others.  Same as now where I might be able to use a dark ribbon but going straight into a preamp and then conversion it's quite clear and up front where as it may be changed too much if going through miles of wire and tubes/transformers/tape.

So I don't totally mind that aspect and I don't find saturation and iron are totally necessary in every genre or mixing project, though there does seem to be benefits.  This is where I get a little confused, though.  Just where do I draw that line between 2 buss stuff and mixing individual tracks?  One can't really objectively say I don't think.  Psychologically, I find it somewhat difficult to "mix into" 2 buss stuff.  I'd rather start hearing things without that, yet when I slap certain stuff on late in the game, it usually takes me away from where I want to be.  Other times it is an obvious improvement.  I guess I need to get used to mixing into at least some saturation.  I have the Wes Audio Prometheus(solid state Pultec) which has adjustable THD on it which brings size and excitement.  As well as an AS Bus comp and RND 542 tape emulators.  Perhaps I should try to start with them on, but without compression or EQ changes.

Thanks for the explanation!

That's very helpful indeed, DrBill.  Much appreciated!  Sounds like I need to experiment and just find some 2 bus stuff I like to give some big picture enhancement.  Silver Bullet is on the to get list for.  Same with the ZOD.  Just gotta get those funds.

Currently exploring a Tube Mic Preamp first in line on my 2-Bus (Using an Avedis LPZ to go from line to mic level) before hitting my Tube Mixbus Compressors and Tube Mastering EQ. I might pick up a second ZOD to explore on busses, though not sure I need any more tube color on my 2-bus. Have there been other applications you dig the ZODs on?