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Post by OtisGreying on Jun 9, 2022 16:42:32 GMT -6
I need something absolutely brutal that wastes no time telling me things are off.
I have PMC’s which tend to fool me in the mids, low mids, and hearing harshness.
I have Yamaha HS7’s which help in hearing some low mid issues but not much other places I think.
What do you guys feel really helps?
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Post by RealNoob on Jun 9, 2022 20:01:18 GMT -6
Someone once told me about 2 classes of monitors, in layman's terms. I'm sure there's more. One camp is like American muscle cars, they sound full and strong. The other is like F1 Racers, seemingly thinner but still full bodied.
The latter is how I would describe the A21M's from PSI. I remember sitting and listening to the whole Journey catalog and how different issues would jump out at me. I found that they are fun to listen to, not fatiguing, but seemingly precise at all octaves to the extent where any bloat or poke jumped out at you immediately - low mid buildup, sibilance, whatever. Even still, with that quality and ability, I miss listening to them. I will own them again.
Using them for a few months even trained my ear to hear the same differences on other sets, though more subtly.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2022 20:12:49 GMT -6
Lots of "monitor" loudspeakers just sound good but are entirely useless for solving problems or balancing mixes. So many pairs of expensive monitors will play back whack balanced because they have so much detail they let you hear everything, or they make everything sound good, or they make everything sound like crap. There can be crossovers right in the middle of problematic regions. How they sound to you at first listen doesn't count. What they make you do and how that translates is what counts. A monitor that makes you debate taking 1 or 2 db off a resonance is a waste of time. That's nothing for a real world playback system or a car where the tweeter is shooting at your leg.
These have always worked:
Yamaha NS10M Studio, not the regular NS10, getting some weight from a desk.
Yamaha HS8 in a well-treated room. These are cheap but work. The HS5 and HS7 are voiced for abominable and worse rooms respectively and have worse crossovers but work.
Yamaha MSP7 Studio. Sadly discontinued. Great monitor. Evil as hell. Sadly discontinued and uses STK chip amps so... yeah don't pay the used prices
Fostex 6301. Amazing little speaker if the driver isn't blown.
KRK 6000 and the various V6. These work but the Focal tweeters and electronics are fragile. Do not pay the used prices for the 6000 if they do not have fully intact or mint JM Labs / Focal Kevlar tweeters! No Fecal translates like this.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 9, 2022 21:17:57 GMT -6
Quad ESL, soundlab ESL, ATC, and we can’t forget Bob O,s big Duntechs.
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Post by drbill on Jun 9, 2022 21:33:43 GMT -6
NS10's. Hate em, never will listen to a pair again. But I can mix on em pretty dam good.
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Post by christophert on Jun 9, 2022 22:47:41 GMT -6
Someone once told me about 2 classes of monitors, in layman's terms. I'm sure there's more. One camp is like American muscle cars, they sound full and strong. The other is like F1 Racers, seemingly thinner but still full bodied. The latter is how I would describe the A21M's from PSI. I remember sitting and listening to the whole Journey catalog and how different issues would jump out at me. I found that they are fun to listen to, not fatiguing, but seemingly precise at all octaves to the extent where any bloat or poke jumped out at you immediately - low mid buildup, sibilance, whatever. Even still, with that quality and ability, I miss listening to them. I will own them again. Using them for a few months even trained my ear to hear the same differences on other sets, though more subtly. Agree - I have PSI A21m's and A17m's - both are incredible unforgiving monitors, accurate, great low end - but above all FUN to mix with. Accurate and fun to mix on monitor speakers are hard to find. I also have Dutch and Dutch 8c that are insane, and the combo with A21m's is killer.
My A17ms are in my spare room, and again these are excellent revealing small monitors - with surprisingly great low end.
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 10, 2022 4:01:40 GMT -6
I need something absolutely brutal that wastes no time telling me things are off. I have PMC’s which tend to fool me in the mids, low mids, and hearing harshness. I have Yamaha HS7’s which help in hearing some low mid issues but not much other places I think. What do you guys feel really helps? Brutal. Unforgiving. Scream at you when something is even slightly off in a mix. Easy - no brainer. ATC 25’s |
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Post by christopher on Jun 10, 2022 11:11:33 GMT -6
If you go NS10 route I highly recommend not turning them up louder than laptop speakers. They still work the same, better actually because you can work all night and switch speakers and not have hearing fatigue
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Post by viciousbliss on Jun 10, 2022 11:29:28 GMT -6
Lots of "monitor" loudspeakers just sound good but are entirely useless for solving problems or balancing mixes. So many pairs of expensive monitors will play back whack balanced because they have so much detail they let you hear everything, or they make everything sound good, or they make everything sound like crap. There can be crossovers right in the middle of problematic regions. How they sound to you at first listen doesn't count. What they make you do and how that translates is what counts. A monitor that makes you debate taking 1 or 2 db off a resonance is a waste of time. That's nothing for a real world playback system or a car where the tweeter is shooting at your leg. These have always worked: Yamaha NS10M Studio, not the regular NS10, getting some weight from a desk. Yamaha HS8 in a well-treated room. These are cheap but work. The HS5 and HS7 are voiced for abominable and worse rooms respectively and have worse crossovers but work. Yamaha MSP7 Studio. Sadly discontinued. Great monitor. Evil as hell. Sadly discontinued and uses STK chip amps so... yeah don't pay the used prices Fostex 6301. Amazing little speaker if the driver isn't blown. KRK 6000 and the various V6. These work but the Focal tweeters and electronics are fragile. Do not pay the used prices for the 6000 if they do not have fully intact or mint JM Labs / Focal Kevlar tweeters! No Fecal translates like this. Will the HS5 and 7 work well in a completely untreated room? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2022 12:27:11 GMT -6
Lots of "monitor" loudspeakers just sound good but are entirely useless for solving problems or balancing mixes. So many pairs of expensive monitors will play back whack balanced because they have so much detail they let you hear everything, or they make everything sound good, or they make everything sound like crap. There can be crossovers right in the middle of problematic regions. How they sound to you at first listen doesn't count. What they make you do and how that translates is what counts. A monitor that makes you debate taking 1 or 2 db off a resonance is a waste of time. That's nothing for a real world playback system or a car where the tweeter is shooting at your leg. These have always worked: Yamaha NS10M Studio, not the regular NS10, getting some weight from a desk. Yamaha HS8 in a well-treated room. These are cheap but work. The HS5 and HS7 are voiced for abominable and worse rooms respectively and have worse crossovers but work. Yamaha MSP7 Studio. Sadly discontinued. Great monitor. Evil as hell. Sadly discontinued and uses STK chip amps so... yeah don't pay the used prices Fostex 6301. Amazing little speaker if the driver isn't blown. KRK 6000 and the various V6. These work but the Focal tweeters and electronics are fragile. Do not pay the used prices for the 6000 if they do not have fully intact or mint JM Labs / Focal Kevlar tweeters! No Fecal translates like this. Will the HS5 and 7 work well in a completely untreated room? Nothing will work positioned randomly in an entirely untreated room with nothing at the first reflection points. The Yamaha HS5 is all mids so it is the most likely to work if you can position it well. www.sonarworks.com/blog/gear-reviews/yamaha-hs5-studio-monitor-review |
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Post by jmoose on Jun 10, 2022 14:19:46 GMT -6
My favorite rhetorical question... If every speaker builder says their box is flat then why do they all sound really different?
Probably time to get out there and listen to some things with the same source material.
What's an "unforgiving" speaker? Two main kinds of balance... internal & external. Internal is how all the sounds relate to each other... like top end content of cymbals vs guitars. External balance is how those sounds translate to the outside world. Not all speakers are good... even great at both.
Internal balance you might look at hi-res things like PMC & Dynaudio mid fields? Full bandwidth & microscope vibe for all the hyper detail. External balance & mix translation? Yeah NS10's are unforgiving. Not pleasant to listen to either but when your dialed into what they offer?
One of my favorite mix speakers are the cheap KRK Rokit 5's. They're kinda hyped, not detail monsters... but something about the voicing kinda works for me and generally mixes translate without many surprises. Think of them like as a car stereo reference..? When I need detail I'm on the Dynaudio's.
Speakers are kinda like shoes everyone fits a little different... normally I'd think of PMC as "unforgiving" and a great box but if they aren't working for you its not a crime. Like for all the people who love & use ADAM's I really can't get along with their voicing. Nothing ever translates for me without surprises. So like I say, its a big world go listen to some speakers in person.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2022 14:59:35 GMT -6
It really depends on what you mean by "unforgiving", some monitors are intentionally out of whack and push elements in your face. They're clinical, detailed (insert buzz word here) but frankly I don't find them very helpful. There needs to be an element of real world translatable or I end up reaching for Auratones, a second pair or some equivalent to sort out translation issues.
On the flip side we have "relative" monitors which are nearer to your average Hi-Fi speaker, I find them equally as unhelpful. You generally don't get enough information and trying to balance can be difficult. Sure it's all relative but it's too easy to miss things on these type's of speakers..
Personally I'd look into ATC or Dynaudio core's, they manage to do both.
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Post by ericn on Jun 10, 2022 15:42:38 GMT -6
I need something absolutely brutal that wastes no time telling me things are off. I have PMC’s which tend to fool me in the mids, low mids, and hearing harshness. I have Yamaha HS7’s which help in hearing some low mid issues but not much other places I think. What do you guys feel really helps? Which PMCs? There is a huge difference once you get to the models using Volt. I always feel disappointed with the less expensive PMC models. |
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Post by OtisGreying on Jun 10, 2022 17:11:23 GMT -6
I need something absolutely brutal that wastes no time telling me things are off. I have PMC’s which tend to fool me in the mids, low mids, and hearing harshness. I have Yamaha HS7’s which help in hearing some low mid issues but not much other places I think. What do you guys feel really helps? Which PMCs? There is a huge difference once you get to the models using Volt. I always feel disappointed with the less expensive PMC models. I have the Result 6s. As far as I know they’re the same as the Two Two 6s without the EQ on the back I can mix well on them but I find the window for things sounding acceptable in the harsh upper midrange and low mid/mids is very wide and doesn’t jump out to me as wrong as clearly as lesser speakers |
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Post by avgatzeblouz on Jun 10, 2022 17:41:35 GMT -6
Honestly, any speaker of a certain price of lots of major brands can work. PMC, ATC, Focal, Yamaha, Dynaudio, etc... But the most important thing is how the speaker reacts to YOUR room. I already said it on this forum : I'm working daily with ATC 25 in a studio downtown where they sound fabulous, clinical, detailed. When I brought them home on several occasions, they sucked big time. No low-end, muffled, not able to work on them. A speaker is nothing by itself. It's the couple made of the speaker and the room that matters. Like the microphone and the instrument. The microphone is nothing by itself, can shine on some sources and be a real garbage on others. So try the speakers in YOUR setup.
Edit : I may add that in my room, Focal Trio6 speakers are great. But they sound way different than in a studio where thay have them too, even with digital room correction applied on both locations. The couple is what matters.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2022 18:31:14 GMT -6
Honestly, any speaker of a certain price of lots of major brands can work. PMC, ATC, Focal, Yamaha, Dynaudio, etc... But the most important thing is how the speaker reacts to YOUR room. I already said it on this forum : I'm working daily with ATC 25 in a studio downtown where they sound fabulous, clinical, detailed. When I brought them home on several occasions, they sucked big time. No low-end, muffled, not able to work on them. A speaker is nothing by itself. It's the couple made of the speaker and the room that matters. Like the microphone and the instrument. The microphone is nothing by itself, can shine on some sources and be a real garbage on others. So try the speakers in YOUR setup.
Edit : I may add that in my room, Focal Trio6 speakers are great. But they sound way different than in a studio where thay have them too, even with digital room correction applied on both locations. The couple is what matters.
IME that's only somewhat true, it entirely depends on the design of the monitor (waveguides, correction, DSP etc.). Genelec "The One's" seem to work in most rooms because they're specifically designed to be very close nearfield monitors with GLM (correction) as an integral part of the solution. The Core 59's for example are somewhere in between, flick a couple of reflection / bass correction switches and they begin to focus far more although they are very much affected by the room. The KH310's are more inline with the Genelec's (they work well in many spaces hence all the great reviews) and ATC are traditional quality over correction style monitors which are completely dependant on you having a well designed space. I listened to the Genelec's in a showroom, an untreated large room and my very well treated studio. The difference wasn't massive. Although I agree with the overarching message, you really need to try them in your own space. |
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Post by ericn on Jun 10, 2022 18:45:56 GMT -6
Which PMCs? There is a huge difference once you get to the models using Volt. I always feel disappointed with the less expensive PMC models. I have the Result 6s. As far as I know they’re the same as the Two Two 6s without the EQ on the back I can mix well on them but I find the window for things sounding acceptable in the harsh upper midrange and low mid/mids is very wide and doesn’t jump out to me as wrong as clearly as lesser speakers I remember doing a long listening session at NAMM in PMCs well treated whisper room. I was really listening too the 3 way in the Two Two series and kept wondering why the mids were lifeless, came home put the same demo stuff on the Questeds and couldn’t believe how much better that same $75 mid dome was in the Questeds. might be amp or DSP but the PMC was just dull. |
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Post by OtisGreying on Jun 10, 2022 19:45:16 GMT -6
Lots of "monitor" loudspeakers just sound good but are entirely useless for solving problems or balancing mixes. So many pairs of expensive monitors will play back whack balanced because they have so much detail they let you hear everything, or they make everything sound good, or they make everything sound like crap. There can be crossovers right in the middle of problematic regions. How they sound to you at first listen doesn't count. What they make you do and how that translates is what counts. A monitor that makes you debate taking 1 or 2 db off a resonance is a waste of time. That's nothing for a real world playback system or a car where the tweeter is shooting at your leg. These have always worked: Yamaha NS10M Studio, not the regular NS10, getting some weight from a desk. Yamaha HS8 in a well-treated room. These are cheap but work. The HS5 and HS7 are voiced for abominable and worse rooms respectively and have worse crossovers but work. Yamaha MSP7 Studio. Sadly discontinued. Great monitor. Evil as hell. Sadly discontinued and uses STK chip amps so... yeah don't pay the used prices Fostex 6301. Amazing little speaker if the driver isn't blown. KRK 6000 and the various V6. These work but the Focal tweeters and electronics are fragile. Do not pay the used prices for the 6000 if they do not have fully intact or mint JM Labs / Focal Kevlar tweeters! No Fecal translates like this. Dan do you feel the Fostex are a speaker that would showcase problems similar to how a car speaker does? If so I’d be really interested. As far as the drivers do they not last long/ would you recommend purchasing them? |
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 10, 2022 20:06:24 GMT -6
I really really really like my NHT SuperOnes. They translate great. If the mix sounds off on those, it is. If it sounds good, it is.
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Post by lowlou on Jun 11, 2022 4:28:33 GMT -6
My APS Klasik (2015 version) are honest speakers. I like them. Probably not on par with more expensive suggestions above. The PSI A17-M sure look attractive for small rooms. Their active bass trap also...
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Post by skav on Jun 11, 2022 4:39:27 GMT -6
Yamaha HS8!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2022 5:11:36 GMT -6
Honestly, any speaker of a certain price of lots of major brands can work. PMC, ATC, Focal, Yamaha, Dynaudio, etc... But the most important thing is how the speaker reacts to YOUR room. I already said it on this forum : I'm working daily with ATC 25 in a studio downtown where they sound fabulous, clinical, detailed. When I brought them home on several occasions, they sucked big time. No low-end, muffled, not able to work on them. A speaker is nothing by itself. It's the couple made of the speaker and the room that matters. Like the microphone and the instrument. The microphone is nothing by itself, can shine on some sources and be a real garbage on others. So try the speakers in YOUR setup.
Edit : I may add that in my room, Focal Trio6 speakers are great. But they sound way different than in a studio where thay have them too, even with digital room correction applied on both locations. The couple is what matters.
Well the ATCs have no bass and are meant to be boundary loaded. They’re like smaller than HS8 Yamahas that cost thousands of dollars. That’s why they work. You will never, ever get that “raw tracks are raw” rawness out of most other brands of speakers. |
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Post by EmRR on Jun 11, 2022 8:28:41 GMT -6
OP is kinda describing Auratones or similar. Something tiny that makes it obvious if you can't hear something. Generally if something passes the tiny speaker test, it's mostly there everywhere else. It's kinda like the iPhone on a table test. I use a 1RU powered monitor panel with 1 inch-is speakers and a 4" sub (!) and it's almost always right.
On the opposite end, I have giant horn loaded Klipsch La Scala, and they'll let you know right away if something is remotely harsh or something in the low mid bass is off.
Without a completely tuned room, more speakers and comparisons seems like the best answer.
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Post by jmoose on Jun 11, 2022 11:31:04 GMT -6
Dan do you feel the Fostex are a speaker that would showcase problems similar to how a car speaker does? If so I’d be really interested. As far as the drivers do they not last long/ would you recommend purchasing them? Fostex was more lo fi think clock radio speaker. Maybe the car stereo in a '79 pinto... average car system today even stock is much nicer & has more bandwidth. Those fostex boxes were mainly used in broadcast, like remote news vans & mobile NPR rigs. The speaker itself was nothing special... $20 vifa driver. The thing that separated it from all the other boxes with 4" speakers was the box itself was designed for everyday pro use... little metal brick with onboard power not a wall wart etc Great thing about those & similar... auratones, minimus 7 was what they didn't reproduce. Since its a big ball of midrange you switch over from the main pair to the mono box and realize wow... this vocal is way too loud... or way buried... or the snare just disappeared... wow were did all the reverb go? Lots of boxes will do the same thing. If you want that maybe get a $59 Bluetooth speaker. Mix balance check. |
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Post by chessparov on Jun 11, 2022 11:52:54 GMT -6
I sold my (mint) Minimus 7's, to Dave Martin... Many moons ago.
Nice to know they went to a great home.
Same thing with some sleeper mics and hardware I sold to Harvey Gerst.
Chris
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