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Post by OtisGreying on May 9, 2022 23:24:30 GMT -6
Even with a limiter doing 10Db of gain my mix is reading at -20, -21 LUFS.
Anything wrong with that? All my compression is working as intended and gain staging etc. just feel like adding 20 Db of gain on a limiter to get it up to proper level seems extreme but perhaps its a good thing to have so much headroom?
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Post by svart on May 10, 2022 0:22:11 GMT -6
Seems really low to me. I'm usually hitting -12db RMS on the master bus before I even touch a limiter.
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Post by wiz on May 10, 2022 0:34:11 GMT -6
When you are reading these levels what is the peak level you are reaching?
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Post by OtisGreying on May 10, 2022 2:34:04 GMT -6
Seems really low to me. I'm usually hitting -12db RMS on the master bus before I even touch a limiter. Any disadvantages to just cranking the gain at the end to bring it up to level? Cause my analog & plug-ins are all gainstaged properly I guess I just happened to mix everything low |
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Post by OtisGreying on May 10, 2022 2:34:56 GMT -6
When you are reading these levels what is the peak level you are reaching? At the very end AFTER my limiter is upping by 10 db of gain, however its also limiting about 3db on snare hits. Peak LUFS is about -17.5 and its regularly hovering around -19-20 |
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Post by wiz on May 10, 2022 3:30:21 GMT -6
Take your limiters off and tell us peak level nothing to do with lufs
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Post by Johnkenn on May 10, 2022 8:49:52 GMT -6
Yeah Iām usually hitting -12 LUFS ish going into the Limiter. But might actually be a little louder because Iāll sometimes use a trim to take it down a little first thing on the master bus.
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Post by trakworxmastering on May 10, 2022 9:40:54 GMT -6
Seems really low to me. I'm usually hitting -12db RMS on the master bus before I even touch a limiter. Any disadvantages to just cranking the gain at the end to bring it up to level? Cause my analog & plug-ins are all gainstaged properly I guess I just happened to mix everything low No disadvantage if your session is 24 bit or 32 bit float. If 16 bit then the noise floor can become an issue when the level needs to be cranked. If 20dB is what it needs, and it sounds good, then crank away! |
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Post by bossanova on May 10, 2022 9:52:39 GMT -6
It only makes sense to use the headroom that you really need, so if you can figure out where your loudest peak is coming in, just gain the rest of the mix up so that peak is hitting -1db. That way you donāt have to worry about your lowest level details getting masked by noise floor from noisier playback devices or anything else along those lines.
Yes, if the gainstaging on the rest of your chain is good and sounding great, let it be and just add the gain to the end of the mix. The magic of digital! š
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Post by bossanova on May 10, 2022 10:01:39 GMT -6
When you are reading these levels what is the peak level you are reaching? At the very end AFTER my limiter is upping by 10 db of gain, however its also limiting about 3db on snare hits. Peak LUFS is about -17.5 and its regularly hovering around -19-20 LUFS is really hard to extrapolate from in isolation unless the peaks are around full scale, because a brickwalled mix can still come in at -23 LUFS if the final output level has been turned down to compensate. If you are coming in full scale, -19-20 LUFS might be a little too dynamic to the point where more dynamic elements pop out of the mix in unexpected ways or may not gel together. The good news it that itās easier to deal with that if itās mostly drum transients that are responsible for the dynamic extension. |
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Post by svart on May 10, 2022 11:25:50 GMT -6
Seems really low to me. I'm usually hitting -12db RMS on the master bus before I even touch a limiter. Any disadvantages to just cranking the gain at the end to bring it up to level? Cause my analog & plug-ins are all gainstaged properly I guess I just happened to mix everything low The only disadvantage is if your peaks are hitting 0db or higher if you gain up. I would have clarified that I'm hitting -12db RMS while my peaks are right at 0dbfs. |
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Post by bgrotto on May 10, 2022 11:29:42 GMT -6
Even with a limiter doing 10Db of gain my mix is reading at -20, -21 LUFS.
Anything wrong with that? All my compression is working as intended and gain staging etc. just feel like adding 20 Db of gain on a limiter to get it up to proper level seems extreme but perhaps its a good thing to have so much headroom?
10db of gain reduction? Or, just adding 10db of gain (as in, makeup gain)? If it's the former (which I doubt), your mixes are likely very, very out of balance. 2-3db of limiting, and a peak value of -0.5, and my mixes live between -12LUFS (at the quietest end, usually for mellow genres) and -7LUFS (for stuff like metal). |
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Post by Guitar on May 10, 2022 11:36:57 GMT -6
That's an, eh, good problem to have.
Just add Airwindows EveryTrim or PurestGain as the first processor in your mix bus channel, crank that gain into your mix/master chain.
My problem more often is having to go back and turn my channels down, not up. But yes, it does happen that way, too, fairly often.
I tend to worry more about RMS values than LUFS, but that's just me, what I'm used to. Either one seems to work fine.
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Post by bossanova on May 10, 2022 11:44:18 GMT -6
When I get home, I can share some of a thorough study Iāve done on where famous recordings land in terms of both LUFS and Peak to Loudness levels. Some of the most dynamic pop and rock tracks that still have a distinct *snap* in the rhythm section are pretty much anything from the first masterings of Aja, as well as Luther Vandrossās *Power of Love* and *Any Love* albums. āWhat a Fool Believesā is another great one.
As you might guess, these examples get incredibly few and far between past 1995 or so.
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Post by bossanova on May 10, 2022 11:48:40 GMT -6
That's an, eh, good problem to have. Just add Airwindows EveryTrim or PurestGain as the first processor in your mix bus channel, crank that gain into your mix/master chain. My problem more often is having to go back and turn my channels down, not up. But yes, it does happen that way, too, fairly often. I tend to worry more about RMS values than LUFS, but that's just me, what I'm used to. Either one seems to work fine. I use the auto feature on Hornet VU meter for this on every mix. It started out as a way to safely gainstage into Nebula, but now I use it for gainstaging in general to make sure Iām always in the sweet spot fader-wise. |
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Post by Guitar on May 10, 2022 11:48:54 GMT -6
When I get home, I can share some of a thorough study Iāve done on where famous recordings land in terms of both LUFS and Peak to Loudness levels. Some of the most dynamic pop and rock tracks that still have a distinct *snap* in the rhythm section are pretty much anything from the first original masterings of Aja, as well as Luther Vandrossās *Power of Love* and *Any Love* albums. āWhat a Fool Believesā is another great one. As you might guess, these examples get incredibly few and far between past 1995 or so. WHAT, I CAN'T HEAR YOU. WHAT WERE YOU SAYING. IS THERE MUSIC PLAYING, IT'S SO LOUD, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ANY MORE. |
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Post by bossanova on May 10, 2022 19:47:44 GMT -6
First up, Steely Dan - Black Cow (Steve Hoffman's MCA mastering). -18.7 LUFS integrated, crazy punchy drums and percussion, uses the entire available range of headroom. (Red marks indicate peaks over -1 db.) Attachments:
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Post by bossanova on May 10, 2022 20:01:51 GMT -6
Luther Vandross - Power of Love/Love Power, -15.5 integrated, the arrangement gets gradually louder and more dense over the course of almost 7 minutes. Attachments:
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Post by bossanova on May 12, 2022 19:44:40 GMT -6
Crash Test Dummies - Mmm Mmm Mmm Mmm. 1994, -11.6 LUFS, still sounds fantastic, but we're starting to lose headroom. Attachments:
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Post by bossanova on May 12, 2022 19:52:34 GMT -6
Annie Lennox - No More I Love You's. 1995, -10.7 LUFS. A year later, and the loud parts are getting *loud*. I love this album but this is where I really start to hear a shift. Attachments:
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Post by bossanova on May 12, 2022 20:14:00 GMT -6
Counting Crows - A Long December - 1996. -9.6 LUFS. Even less dynamic range, starting to see the trend of bumping the ceiling of the limiter for most of the duration and dropping the level to create dynamic contrast. Attachments:
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Post by bossanova on May 12, 2022 20:23:58 GMT -6
Harvey Danger - Flagpole Sitta - 1997, -8 LUFS. An even more extreme example of crushed dynamics with the now standard level drop during the bridge. Attachments:
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Post by bossanova on May 12, 2022 20:32:30 GMT -6
Ben Folds Five - Brick - 1998, -15.1 LUFS. A breath of fresh air (and an all time classic album), but definitely the exception that proves the rule. Attachments:
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Post by bossanova on May 12, 2022 20:37:40 GMT -6
Tal Bachman - She's So High - 1999, -6.9 LUFS. A bizarre mish-mash of a surprisingly dynamic opening section and final pre-chorus, and insanely crushed choruses that are more squashed than anything else I've posted to this point. Attachments:
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 13, 2022 11:57:42 GMT -6
I'm far from knowledgeable on the topic. I have noticed that when I send a mix to be mastered with fairly low levels it comes back quieter than mixes I sent that began with louder levels. This should not be, but it is.
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