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Post by bossanova on Feb 16, 2022 12:04:16 GMT -6
I guess I'm a slow learner Martin. Still learning my mics after having some for decades. LOL. For me, that's a big part of the "magic" of recording. Here's what I've learned: I instantly know what I hate . . . takes me a while to know what I like. About anything. The little wow factor lasts a few seconds, then I have to find out what I like about a thing before I can fully appreciate it. With nearly every piece of new gear I have the Wow Factor, then a “Dark Night of the Soul” where I wonder why the hell I bought it, and finally a long period afterwards where I explore the item in a more objective way and get a better sense of where it fits as a tool. I sometimes skip that last step and sell it instead, only to find myself in a situation where I think, “Damn, I wish I still had ‘X Unit’! It would have been perfect for this problem.”
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 16, 2022 16:14:26 GMT -6
I guess I'm a slow learner Martin. Still learning my mics after having some for decades. LOL. For me, that's a big part of the "magic" of recording. I think your use of mics is probably way more refined than mine, so that makes sense. I never had to set up mics to track a band by myself, I always worked with engineers when doing live tracking. Typically, it's only me doing acoustic guitar and vocals mainly at home. Then I overdub some parts. So my criteria for mics is mainly how does it sound on my voice. I'm with you also, recording is a lifetime of discovery no matter how long you've been at it. There's clearly a magic moment we all strive for. For me, when the headphone mix is good, I'm usually good. I had to do a session last week with a real crappy headphone mix, it was a drag, but came out well when I suggested I play in another room, ha!
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Post by drbill on Feb 16, 2022 16:32:24 GMT -6
I guess I'm a slow learner Martin. Still learning my mics after having some for decades. LOL. For me, that's a big part of the "magic" of recording. I think your use of mics is probably way more refined than mine, so that makes sense. I never had to set up mics to track a band by myself, I always worked with engineers when doing live tracking. Typically, it's only me doing acoustic guitar and vocals mainly at home. Then I overdub some parts. So my criteria for mics is mainly how does it sound on my voice. I'm with you also, recording is a lifetime of discovery no matter how long you've been at it. There's clearly a magic moment we all strive for. For me, when the headphone mix is good, I'm usually good. I had to do a session last week with a real crappy headphone mix, it was a drag, but came out well when I suggested I play in another room, ha! I totally get that Martin when you're recording your own voice, on your own guitar, and especially with your own songs. <thumbsup>
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Post by paulcheeba on Feb 18, 2022 13:54:23 GMT -6
I'm not a big U87 fan. I prefer the Sm69 Fet or much prefer the Soyuz 017. That said I thought B & C were the best sounding, least sibilant examples here and the sweetest to listen too. I'm surprised I found the Warm so round and pleasant with a good depth of field.
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Post by the other mark williams on Feb 18, 2022 14:04:09 GMT -6
I'm not a big U87 fan. I prefer the Sm69 Fet or much prefer the Soyuz 017. That said I thought B & C were the best sounding, least sibilant examples here and the sweetest to listen too. I'm surprised I found the Warm so round and pleasant with a good depth of field. Welcome, Paul! Nice to see you here. While there are a bunch of U87 fans on RGO, there are several of us Soyuz fans, as well. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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Post by plinker on Feb 18, 2022 14:56:24 GMT -6
I'm not a big U87 fan. I prefer the Sm69 Fet or much prefer the Soyuz 017. That said I thought B & C were the best sounding, least sibilant examples here and the sweetest to listen too. I'm surprised I found the Warm so round and pleasant with a good depth of field. Welcome, Paul! Nice to see you here. While there are a bunch of U87 fans on RGO, there are several of us Soyuz fans, as well. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. And Mark is both!!!
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Post by the other mark williams on Feb 18, 2022 15:36:35 GMT -6
Welcome, Paul! Nice to see you here. While there are a bunch of U87 fans on RGO, there are several of us Soyuz fans, as well. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. And Mark is both!!! Why yes, yes I am!
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Post by christopher on Feb 18, 2022 18:10:02 GMT -6
What I'll say about the AI is it's a chameleon and can really change in color based on the preamp you use with it. My U87ai through the Demeter VTMP is a great sounding chain. It's pretty darn good through my Neve 1073 and 1272 as well. I downloaded the wavs, renamed each to the same long serial number with 1 digit difference so I could keep blind testing. So far I've done about 8 blind sessions. With no EQ my original opinons are pretty much always same, but I do notice the ai isn't as bad as I initially seemed- its just that it stands out as different while the others have a similarity. playing with EQ - all blind- I try to make the best take and the AI started to get some good ratings, typically it lands in the top3. It just takes EQ a little different than the rest. VERY clean and pure tone, so that was very relieving and cool to hear! I'm still trying to figure out which clone I like the most. Results from pushing on faders and EQ have been somewhat surprising and not as straighforward as the flat results. I'll need to do more tests this week with fresh ears.
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Post by timcampbell on Feb 19, 2022 10:45:43 GMT -6
Well this thread does raise the question if a microphone in a shootout doesn't sound like the original, no matter how likeable the sound, is it a good clone?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 19, 2022 11:26:16 GMT -6
Well, by definition, that would make it not a good clone, but not necessarily a bad mic.
I had a Blackspade UM-17 R and B for a while with the Thiersch capsules. The sound was somewhere between a U47 and an M49. The B was more M49-ish, the R, more 47-ish.
The thing was it still wasn't quite the right fit for me. What I didn't realize was just how great it actually was. That's because I could only afford one high end mic, so it had to be the right one for me personally.
So I guess it's all about your needs when choosing mics. I've seen many videos showing Neumann U67's or 87's as overhead room mics or as drum mics.
Some of these clones might make fantastic overheads and save you a ton if you can't swing Neumann U87's just for overheads..
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Post by seawell on Feb 19, 2022 14:30:42 GMT -6
Well this thread does raise the question if a microphone in a shootout doesn't sound like the original, no matter how likeable the sound, is it a good clone? That's a great point. When I went in to this shootout I asked myself 2 questions: 1. Which one sounds the most like a vintage U87? 2. Does that matter? As far as what mic or mics I'm keeping, I decided that didn't matter as obviously I'd want the mic that sounds the best to me. As far as manufactures marketing and selling something as an 87 clone, I do think that matters a lot.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 19, 2022 14:49:51 GMT -6
I should read my own board!
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Post by seawell on Feb 19, 2022 15:26:37 GMT -6
I should read my own board! I was thinking…”well, I guess this is how you find out you’ve been blocked 🤣”
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 19, 2022 15:28:06 GMT -6
Well, a clone is only a real clone to the extent that the original circuit is replicated and the original parts recreated.
We all know about the effect of unobtanium, and any clone can/will be opened up to establish/critique the parts/build quality.
Personally, I can’t or likely wouldn’t afford the real thing, so really only care about the sonic quality of the piece of gear.
I thought all these mikes very usable, interesting price vs sonic variation , ie price varied far more than price to my ear, but like any mike, you would choose it based on best fit for the singer’s voice and the song.
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Post by gwlee7 on Feb 19, 2022 15:29:50 GMT -6
I should read my own board! Where’s the fun in that?
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Post by ml on Feb 19, 2022 15:55:37 GMT -6
The warm was surprisingly good. I also liked the Serrano and the vintage. The Serrano seemed a touch more open. I didn't care for the beesneez. If I were in the market for an 87 I'd skip the AI and get the warm or Serrano, they are in the 87 ballpark for a lot less coin. Thanks for the shootout!
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Post by seawell on Feb 19, 2022 16:44:14 GMT -6
The warm was surprisingly good. I also liked the Serrano and the vintage. The Serrano seemed a touch more open. I didn't care for the beesneez. If I were in the market for an 87 I'd skip the AI and get the warm or Serrano, they are in the 87 ballpark for a lot less coin. Thanks for the shootout! I'm glad you found it useful! The Warm was definitely the biggest surprise for me. I'm still deciding what to do as far as what to keep but I'm leaning towards the Serrano or Warm because I want a pair and that would be tough to do with the AI and especially the vintage.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 19, 2022 17:21:37 GMT -6
I should read my own board! I was thinking…”well, I guess this is how you find out you’ve been blocked 🤣” Ha no dude. I love your videos.
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Post by seawell on Feb 19, 2022 17:30:29 GMT -6
I was thinking…”well, I guess this is how you find out you’ve been blocked 🤣” Ha no dude. I love your videos. Haha just messing with ya! I'm going to try to do more this way where when I'm working on a review or shootout I can do some kind of RGO exclusive sneak peek. The feedback here is the best 👍🏼
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Post by gwlee7 on Feb 19, 2022 17:32:48 GMT -6
I am certainly getting a Serrano sometime. @the other mark williams sold me on it when he posted his tracks using it. Well actually, I am talking my lead singer into getting it. It hasn’t been hard.
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Post by timcampbell on Feb 19, 2022 18:17:05 GMT -6
The one factor not mentioned here is resale value. Early U87ai's can sell for less tha 2000 dollars and sound terrific. If you to want sell that mic again you are almost garanteed to recoup your investment. With Warm, Serrano, etc microphones you are literally losing at least half if not more of your purchasing price at resale. There is also the appeal for yourself and clients about using name brand equipment.
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Post by WKG on Feb 19, 2022 18:17:22 GMT -6
What a great shootout. I actually liked all the clips and it was surprising how close they were, they all sound great to me. For me the vintage and the Serrano had a slight edge. The Serrano has something in the mids/low mids that I really like and the top end sits very nicely.
Thanks for taking the time to put this together, really well done and a great resource.
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Post by bossanova on Feb 19, 2022 18:37:39 GMT -6
The warm was surprisingly good. I also liked the Serrano and the vintage. The Serrano seemed a touch more open. I didn't care for the beesneez. If I were in the market for an 87 I'd skip the AI and get the warm or Serrano, they are in the 87 ballpark for a lot less coin. Thanks for the shootout! I have the Serrano, but I’ve also recorded with the WA87 R1 and I loved it. Very smooth, especially compared to some of the other designs that have a bit more “bite” in there.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 19, 2022 20:30:55 GMT -6
I've been helped by mic shootouts many times. I've actually purchased a few based on them and wasn't the least bit disappointed. That doesn't mean that time spent with a mic won't reveal subtleties you couldn't notice in a shootout. My buddy Dusty Wright bought the Warm 47 and Chad Kelly did mod it. It was a good sounding mic to begin with and got even better after Chad's upgrade.
That said, when you've spent quite a bit of time with it, you'll see that it's not as transparent or detailed as the other mics. It sounds good, nicely balanced, but doesn't touch the Neumann's. It definitely a good value, much better than many fake ass "classic" clones, but it's really not great just a good value for the money.
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Post by tkaitkai on Feb 19, 2022 20:36:41 GMT -6
A bit late to the party here, but man, the Warm is seriously impressive. If I were dead set on a U87 as a flagship mic, I'd probably opt for an AI or a vintage, but for $700, that's one hell of a mic. I want one. Thanks for putting this together seawell .
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