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Post by seawell on Feb 15, 2022 10:37:11 GMT -6
If it makes you guys feel better the Warm was the biggest suprise of the bunch for me! Even knowing what it was while tracking, the first time I set it up I was kind of shocked. I've owned a Warm 1176 and Pultec Clones. The 1176 was ok but those pultecs really left me with a bad impression of the company as a whole so I expected this one to be my least favorite. That didn't end up being the case at all! The Warm is the cleanest, for lack of a better term to me, and I could see that being particularly useful for drum overheads! The Warm and the Serrano were by far the most pleasant to sing into while tracking(and that actually means a lot for me when deciding). With the Neumanns and the BeesNeez I always felt like I had to have one earphone off to be able to hear well enough to stay on pitch. I spent a good bit of time making sure I found a good representation of a vintage 87(it wasn't easy!). This one was owned by a multi grammy winner...blah blah...said all that to say it was in as good of shape as one could expect from that era. Has a little build up on the capsule, but I don't know how one of that age couldn't. It was important to me to have one that was original, no re-skin, etc... So, hopefully we can all make a pretty good decision based off of this shootout. No shootout is perfect for sure, but if this one falls short anywhere it definitely isn't for lack of effort I own a good bit of vintage equipment and tend to favor it more times than not during shootouts, but I have to agree with mike here, as far as U87 style mics go, I don't see the price they are now going for justified with the great modern options we now have!
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Post by notneeson on Feb 15, 2022 10:48:04 GMT -6
Some of the Warm stuff can work out great, despite the overall disdain for them on most audio boards. I’ve mixed great tracks cut with the WA47 and their API style four banger. Have had clients flip out over their 1176 too and we were already using a Fairchild on the same session, lol.
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Post by nick8801 on Feb 15, 2022 11:15:25 GMT -6
Wow, definitely some surprises in there! Now that I know D is the Beesneez, it's my favorite because that's what I own lol. Honestly, they are all super close and any one of them could do the "87" job on a recording. Glad I sold my vintage 87 before this shootout came out Thanks again for doing it. I love nerding out over this kind of stuff.
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Post by Vincent R. on Feb 15, 2022 11:16:53 GMT -6
Thanks again everyone for all the participation, this was fun! I’m going to release this as a 2 part video on my YouTube channel so please keep this key RGO confidential for now 👍🏻 Ok, here is the key(key stayed the same for parts 1,2 & 3). U87ai = A Warm = B U87 = C BeesNeez = D Serrano = E I'm sure you'll address this in your video, but how close were they all in gain needed? I'm curious how close that Serrano would be to my U87ai.
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Post by Vincent R. on Feb 15, 2022 11:18:56 GMT -6
If it makes you guys feel better the Warm was the biggest suprise of the bunch for me! Even knowing what it was while tracking, the first time I set it up I was kind of shocked. I've owned a Warm 1176 and Pultec Clones. The 1176 was ok but those pultecs really left me with a bad impression of the company as a whole so I expected this one to be my least favorite. That didn't end up being the case at all! The Warm is the cleanest, for lack of a better term to me, and I could see that being particularly useful for drum overheads! The Warm and the Serrano were by far the most pleasant to sing into while tracking(and that actually means a lot for me when deciding). With the Neumanns and the BeesNeez I always felt like I had to have one earphone off to be able to hear well enough to stay on pitch. I spent a good bit of time making sure I found a good representation of a vintage 87(it wasn't easy!). This one was owned by a multi grammy winner...blah blah...said all that to say it was in as good of shape as one could expect from that era. Has a little build up on the capsule, but I don't know how one of that age couldn't. It was important to me to have one that was original, no re-skin, etc... So, hopefully we can all make a pretty good decision based off of this shootout. No shootout is perfect for sure, but if this one falls short anywhere it definitely isn't for lack of effort I own a good bit of vintage equipment and tend to favor it more times than not during shootouts, but I have to agree with mike here, as far as U87 style mics go, I don't see the price they are now going for justified with the great modern options we now have! I still maintain that Warm's WA47 is a hell of a mic at it's price point. That was the first Warm mic that surprised me.
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Post by seawell on Feb 15, 2022 11:41:23 GMT -6
Thanks again everyone for all the participation, this was fun! I’m going to release this as a 2 part video on my YouTube channel so please keep this key RGO confidential for now 👍🏻 Ok, here is the key(key stayed the same for parts 1,2 & 3). U87ai = A Warm = B U87 = C BeesNeez = D Serrano = E I'm sure you'll address this in your video, but how close were they all in gain needed? I'm curious how close that Serrano would be to my U87ai. That's a great question! Not surprisingly the AI has the most output. The Serrano has the lowest, followed by the Warm, Beesneez and Vintage U87 in that order(from lowest to highest output). I'll look back through the gain matching I did in Pro Tools and see if I can get some more specific numbers for you later.
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Post by christopher on Feb 15, 2022 12:34:35 GMT -6
Thanks again everyone for all the participation, this was fun! I’m going to release this as a 2 part video on my YouTube channel so please keep this key RGO confidential for now 👍🏻 Ok, here is the key(key stayed the same for parts 1,2 & 3). U87ai = A Warm = B U87 = C BeesNeez = D Serrano = E Wow… this is the best news for me! I listened again last night and B,C,D,E all had the 87i vibe, A just didn’t. I’m pretty happy. As I went to sleep I realized E was right there with B and D. C was good too, kind of a middle road. So I’m pretty excited. Well the internet was right when it said U87ai, ain’t right. A was pretty behringer clone level imo. I recently used a behringer and u87i on 2 amps, and A gave me the same clean but un-usable vibe as the behringer, like it wants to be an 87 so bad. I didn’t want to say that in case it was a boutique builder experienced some build issues…you know the market is flooding with AI counterfeits right? You might want to make some extra close inspections. EDIT*******: after downloading and playing with the files in a blind testing way, the 87ai is way better than behringer! I was originally taken back at the extra modern brightness compared to vintage 87s in this. EQ can get an amazing sound in a blind test, which is just not possible with the behringer, although I meant my comment more as I was impressed w/behr as it sort of feels in the ballpark. When flat It’s pretty easy to figure out the ai if I listen for the bright exacting modern dynamic highs. After thinking about it, the bright thing is same with TLM102, which is very useable but requires taming w/EQ
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Post by seawell on Feb 15, 2022 13:06:32 GMT -6
Thanks again everyone for all the participation, this was fun! I’m going to release this as a 2 part video on my YouTube channel so please keep this key RGO confidential for now 👍🏻 Ok, here is the key(key stayed the same for parts 1,2 & 3). U87ai = A Warm = B U87 = C BeesNeez = D Serrano = E Wow… this is the best news for me! I listened again last night and B,C,D,E all had the 87i vibe, A just didn’t. I’m pretty happy. As I went to sleep I realized E was right there with B and D. C was good too, kind of a middle road. So I’m pretty excited. Well the internet was right when it said U87ai, ain’t right. A was pretty behringer clone level imo. I recently used a behringer and u87i on 2 amps, and A gave me the same clean but un-usable vibe as the behringer, like it wants to be an 87 so bad. I didn’t want to say that in case it was a boutique builder experienced some build issues…you know the market is flooding with AI counterfeits right? You might want to make some extra close inspections. Yeah lots of knock offs which is why I got this AI brand new from a reputable dealer.
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Post by Vincent R. on Feb 15, 2022 13:16:16 GMT -6
What I'll say about the AI is it's a chameleon and can really change in color based on the preamp you use with it. My U87ai through the Demeter VTMP is a great sounding chain. It's pretty darn good through my Neve 1073 and 1272 as well.
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Post by enlav on Feb 15, 2022 13:28:36 GMT -6
What I'll say about the AI is it's a chameleon and can really change in color based on the preamp you use with it. My U87ai through the Demeter VTMP is a great sounding chain. It's pretty darn good through my Neve 1073 and 1272 as well. This times 1000. The first time I heard the AI was through the console pre's on an Otari Status. Never beat out the run-of-the-mill 414's we had. (Pre digital switch)
A couple years later, I got to hear it through several other preamps and I felt very similar to Vincent. Very usable microphone, and still a VO favorite for a reason. (Though reading the sentiments here, I'm sure many of these other options would work just as well...)
Sorry for the off-topic rant; I still haven't listened to these tracks. Too scared, it's going to convince me to buy more microphones...
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Post by seawell on Feb 15, 2022 13:41:09 GMT -6
What I'll say about the AI is it's a chameleon and can really change in color based on the preamp you use with it. My U87ai through the Demeter VTMP is a great sounding chain. It's pretty darn good through my Neve 1073 and 1272 as well. This is a great point! In the video, I'll have tracks through the Antelope M32(very clean), Shadow Hills(Iron) and Shadow Hills(Nickel) so they'll be a little variance there.
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Post by Ward on Feb 15, 2022 14:58:05 GMT -6
A. Fairly balanced B. Murky C. Weak but balanced D. Distorted E. a little bit distorted. But overall balanced,
EDIT.
Just read Seawell's notes on what was what and my evaluation makes sense to me.
A. Fairly balanced. i have one U87ai and that is how I normally find it. B. No surprise there C. The vintage U87 is 10db weaker than a U87ai but more balanced. D. Understandable. Ben voices them towards the earlier incarnations, like my 71. E. Also makes perfect sense, although I can't really tell my Serrano from my 1973 87
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Post by plinker on Feb 15, 2022 15:02:03 GMT -6
Thanks again everyone for all the participation, this was fun! I’m going to release this as a 2 part video on my YouTube channel so please keep this key RGO confidential for now 👍🏻 Ok, here is the key(key stayed the same for parts 1,2 & 3). U87ai = A Warm = B U87 = C BeesNeez = D Serrano = E
Thanks for sharing this shootout and the reveal. While others may hear it differently, I thought "E" the Serrano was the closest to the vintage "C" and preferred them in my Senn600 headphones 1.(E) and 2.(C). Based on this shootout and my experience with the Serrano 87 I own, it's good to know that spending 4 figures on reverb for a vintage one just isn't necessary for me. And it only increases my optimism for the Serrano 84 I have on order. Thank you
#metoo!!
I listened to each one and quickly chose E -- good thing I own it! ;-}
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Post by dok on Feb 15, 2022 16:11:15 GMT -6
Not surprised that the Warm performed well. The original WA87 is a great mono acoustic guitar mic from my experience.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 15, 2022 19:22:57 GMT -6
I didn't post, but picked A for anything with vocals. C was so good on solo acoustic I would have to hear a comparison between A and C for myself in a track to make a fair choice.
I actually recognized the Warm because My friend Dusty Wright got the Warm when it first came out and had Chad do the upgrade. We did many tracks with it, and it sounds very good now.
My thing is transparency, so I'd go with the newer 87. The Serrano makes a good showing and I would happily use that in the classic stereo overhead situation, but not quite for vocals.
I wish you had the Stam in the mix, this was a really well done comparison Seawell, thanks.
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Post by seawell on Feb 15, 2022 19:31:00 GMT -6
I didn't post, but picked A for anything with vocals. C was so good on solo acoustic I would have to hear a comparison between A and C for myself in a track to make a fair choice. I actually recognized the Warm because My friend Dusty Wright got the Warm when it first came out and had Chad do the upgrade. We did many tracks with it, and it sounds very good now. My thing is transparency, so I'd go with the newer 87. The Serrano makes a good showing and I would happily use that in the classic stereo overhead situation, but not quite for vocals. I wish you had the Stam in the mix, this was a really well done comparison Seawell, thanks. Thanks Martin! I talked to Joshua right before doing this shootout and found out he is working on a new version of the Stam 87 so I decided to exclude it for now. Once he's done with that, I'll see if I can go back and add it in to expand the shootout. Very excited to hear what he comes up with!
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Post by wiz on Feb 15, 2022 19:37:16 GMT -6
If it makes you guys feel better the Warm was the biggest suprise of the bunch for me! Even knowing what it was while tracking, the first time I set it up I was kind of shocked. I've owned a Warm 1176 and Pultec Clones. The 1176 was ok but those pultecs really left me with a bad impression of the company as a whole so I expected this one to be my least favorite. That didn't end up being the case at all! The Warm is the cleanest, for lack of a better term to me, and I could see that being particularly useful for drum overheads! The Warm and the Serrano were by far the most pleasant to sing into while tracking(and that actually means a lot for me when deciding). With the Neumanns and the BeesNeez I always felt like I had to have one earphone off to be able to hear well enough to stay on pitch. I spent a good bit of time making sure I found a good representation of a vintage 87(it wasn't easy!). This one was owned by a multi grammy winner...blah blah...said all that to say it was in as good of shape as one could expect from that era. Has a little build up on the capsule, but I don't know how one of that age couldn't. It was important to me to have one that was original, no re-skin, etc... So, hopefully we can all make a pretty good decision based off of this shootout. No shootout is perfect for sure, but if this one falls short anywhere it definitely isn't for lack of effort I own a good bit of vintage equipment and tend to favor it more times than not during shootouts, but I have to agree with mike here, as far as U87 style mics go, I don't see the price they are now going for justified with the great modern options we now have! shhhh.. I own a vintage one...I want the prices hi.... 8)
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 16, 2022 8:34:59 GMT -6
A shootout can a helpful guide. I've chosen a couple of mics because of them and wasn't disappointed.
That said, when you've had the luxury of using a mic on the level of a vintage or new U87 for many years, you gain a kind of hands on insight with it. Many clones come very close and are valid in their own right, but rarely have I heard a clone totally equal or improve upon the original vintage models.
I have the wonderful Stam SA67. It got better and better as I used it. Perhaps a tube or diaphragm broke in? Everyone so far who has used it comments in the" wow, that mic is amazing" way ! I hope to shoot out against the Neumann reissue and a vintage one at some point, to see just how close it gets. My guess is it's equal, but different, the same as if you had three Neumann U67's and compared them.
So what matters most is if you like the sound of the clones compared here. It's finding a mic you LOVE that's much harder to do.
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Post by svart on Feb 16, 2022 8:44:46 GMT -6
Still a case of tiny differences that probably wouldn't make much difference in a full mix.
Also, nobody has ever accused a real U87 of being "clean" sounding.. lol. Cleaner is not better with a U87. It's all about that midrange.
I have the beezneez one and it does the chesty "U87 thing" and I couldn't be happier with it. If someone came along and gave me a vintage U87 I would take it, but I have zero interest in buying one now.
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Post by enlav on Feb 16, 2022 8:48:23 GMT -6
I have the wonderful Stam SA67. It got better and better as I used it. Perhaps a tube or diaphragm broke in? Everyone so far who has used it comments in the" wow, that mic is amazing" way ! I also wouldn't rule out your own adjustments to the microphone - I'd guess some of it could even be subconscious - small adjustments in placement, processing, even performance/projection to the microphone, that all better work with yours. Not second-guessing that it's a great microphone, but I think we (humans) have maybe more potential to adjust/adapt to our surroundings and tools.
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Post by drbill on Feb 16, 2022 9:32:48 GMT -6
I have the wonderful Stam SA67. It got better and better as I used it. Perhaps a tube or diaphragm broke in? Everyone so far who has used it comments in the" wow, that mic is amazing" way ! I also wouldn't rule out your own adjustments to the microphone - I'd guess some of it could even be subconscious - small adjustments in placement, processing, even performance/projection to the microphone, that all better work with yours. Not second-guessing that it's a great microphone, but I think we (humans) have maybe more potential to adjust/adapt to our surroundings and tools. This is definitely true. One of the reasons that random clips on the internet don't really do it for me. I need to use a mic for a period of time and adjust to it's quirks and idiosyncrasies. They are all tools. None are "perfect" on first listen. You learn how to better use them over time.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 16, 2022 10:35:47 GMT -6
Not saying you guys are wrong, but I'm kind of ruthless when it comes to gear. If there's the slightest thing I don't like, I guarantee I will eventually get rid of something. I've sold a 51' Fender Esquire, 62' Gretsch Country Club, a 68' Les Paul with a 59' neck, hand wired amps, Fender 66' Super Reverb, 66' ES-335, a 1980 U87, at least a dozen high end mics. My list could take up the entire page. Even my favorite currently made mic in the world, the Chandler REDD 47 was a pinch bright, but EQ fixes that easily. For sure, you learn speakers, but I've never "learned" a mic. For me, it works, or it doesn't.
I have tried to make myself like some very good gear, but I just can't. That's the way I am I guess..
I've also noticed over the decades that my first impression is inevitably the right one. I never talk myself into liking something even though I try on occasion. You could stick the cheapest ugliest mic in the world in front of me, and if it sounds good, I'll use it. I've had so many instances in my life where I've caught important things big name producers miss, I learned to trust my ears above everything else a long time ago.
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Post by drbill on Feb 16, 2022 11:08:55 GMT -6
I guess I'm a slow learner Martin. Still learning my mics after having some for decades. LOL. For me, that's a big part of the "magic" of recording.
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Post by Ward on Feb 16, 2022 11:44:52 GMT -6
I guess I'm a slow learner Martin. Still learning my mics after having some for decades. LOL. For me, that's a big part of the "magic" of recording. Here's what I've learned: I instantly know what I hate . . . takes me a while to know what I like. About anything. The little wow factor lasts a few seconds, then I have to find out what I like about a thing before I can fully appreciate it.
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Post by bossanova on Feb 16, 2022 11:50:08 GMT -6
I also wouldn't rule out your own adjustments to the microphone - I'd guess some of it could even be subconscious - small adjustments in placement, processing, even performance/projection to the microphone, that all better work with yours. Not second-guessing that it's a great microphone, but I think we (humans) have maybe more potential to adjust/adapt to our surroundings and tools. This is definitely true. One of the reasons that random clips on the internet don't really do it for me. I need to use a mic for a period of time and adjust to it's quirks and idiosyncrasies. They are all tools. None are "perfect" on first listen. You learn how to better use them over time. There's only 1 mic (the MXL 770) that I've given up on out of the 5 that I've owned. It had some horrible resonances that no amount of EQ could fix. Everything else can shine in the right situation with the right placement, room, etc
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