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Post by EmRR on Oct 25, 2020 9:16:41 GMT -6
Over the years I’ve identified a big side effect of streaming. I think streaming causes people to not buy the CD and also NOT LISTEN to the stream! Does this happen to you as listeners? Yes. As well, my wife listens to a lot of playlists, and I hear songs I like in the background. I have no idea what it is or how to find it again. I have songs in playlists I’ve heard a hundred times and still really like, and I couldn’t tell you the artist or title because I’ve barely ever seen that info. We’re making and selling wallpaper, that’s the department we’ve been moved to.
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Post by christopher on Oct 25, 2020 11:43:09 GMT -6
When we allow something to be assigned no value, it has no value. The I oy reason we look back and think, “man, I listened to that album backwards and forward” is because we spent $15 on it - basically because of the single and then eventually got around to listening to the rest of the album. Ultimately the rest of the album grew on us too. I think songwriters will ultimately figure it out again, but it will probably take another 20-50 years. Blockchain (from what I’m told) could fix it immediately. Unfortunately, that’s too late for me. And when the CDs were $15 minimum wage was $3 something. And those jobs are the worst. I had to endure half a day in hell with the nastiest low life jerks as bosses and co-workers, just to get an album. Even if I hated it, as long as it was listenable it grew on me. Today I guess equivalent price would be $35-$40
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Post by christopher on Oct 25, 2020 11:56:24 GMT -6
Wiz... I’ve been wanting to tell you: I’m pretty sure I heard one of your songs in a dinner playlist at my in-laws. I thought it was great that it’s getting out there, even if it’s not generating cash. I also agree it’s impossible to know what we hear on the playlists. There’s no DJ’s to inform the listener, and they just keep moving on. I tried to look at the playlist history to confirm it was your song, there was no playlist history. So it’s about as bad as it can be in terms of tech respecting the art.
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Post by Quint on Oct 25, 2020 12:39:17 GMT -6
Over the years I’ve identified a big side effect of streaming. I think streaming causes people to not buy the CD and also NOT LISTEN to the stream! Does this happen to you as listeners? Yes. As well, my wife listens to a lot of playlists, and I hear songs I like in the background. I have no idea what it is or how to find it again. I have songs in playlists I’ve heard a hundred times and still really like, and I couldn’t tell you the artist or title because I’ve barely ever seen that info. We’re making and selling wallpaper, that’s the department we’ve been moved to. You know, I'm certain that I'm still a complete outlier, compared to most of the population, but I still almost exclusively listen to music (vinyl, CD, streaming) in the album format. By that, I mean that I typically only listen to albums, front to back. I seldom do singles or playlists. I do this, to such a point, that I often don't even know the names of a lot of the songs on most of my favorite albums. But, like I said, I'm sure I'm an outlier... A ton of people consume music pretty much as background noise these days, unfortunately. Which would, in a certain way, still be okay if streaming actually paid anything. But it doesn't. Granted, the "best" way to consume art is to actually sit down and respectfully give it your full attention, but a stream would still be a stream and help to pay the bills if, again, it actually paid anything. None of this will ever change unless someone comes up with a way to actually get artists what they are truly owed for their work.
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Post by Guitar on Oct 25, 2020 12:55:21 GMT -6
Quint I am an album listener also. Usually 2-4 full albums per day. Single tracks don't work so well for me, or playlisting. I think human attention is the real commodity, and that is being sold to social media platforms and their advertisers, in many cases. Willingly, by the users. Or simply competed with by other media, like film or the printed word. I know there are still some hardcore music listeners out there, but they probably have been for life I would guess. It's certainly not the norm, these days.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 25, 2020 12:58:17 GMT -6
Yes. As well, my wife listens to a lot of playlists, and I hear songs I like in the background. I have no idea what it is or how to find it again. I have songs in playlists I’ve heard a hundred times and still really like, and I couldn’t tell you the artist or title because I’ve barely ever seen that info. We’re making and selling wallpaper, that’s the department we’ve been moved to. You know, I'm certain that I'm still a complete outlier, compared to most of the population, but I still almost exclusively listen to music (vinyl, CD, streaming) in the album format. By that, I mean that I typically only listen to albums, front to back. I seldom do singles or playlists. I do this, to such a point, that I often don't even know the names of a lot of the songs on most of my favorite albums. Yes, I mostly do to, but that also means I'm listening mostly to catalog I'm already familiar with. I'll put on a catalog artist I know, and let it play though albums I DON'T know, but at least there I have a point of reference to go back and identify. I started using the 'liked' playlist recently, and there's newer things on there I couldn't identify without looking.
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Post by the other mark williams on Oct 25, 2020 13:02:59 GMT -6
[...] I think human attention is the real commodity, and that is being sold to social media platforms and their advertisers, in many cases. Willingly, by the users. Or simply competed with by other media, like film or the printed word. [...] This is my perspective, as well. There's just an enormous amount of STUFF competing for the free time people have, whether that "stuff" is Instagram/Facebook or Netflix or YouTube or music listening. Generally speaking, most people have time to listen to music. But there's so much more media-on-demand to pay attention to in the snippets of time that people have open.
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Post by Quint on Oct 25, 2020 13:18:20 GMT -6
Quint I am an album listener also. Usually 2-4 full albums per day. Single tracks don't work so well for me, or playlisting. I think human attention is the real commodity, and that is being sold to social media platforms and their advertisers, in many cases. Willingly, by the users. Or simply competed with by other media, like film or the printed word. I know there are still some hardcore music listeners out there, but they probably have been for life I would guess. It's certainly not the norm, these days. Yep, the modern world provides for a lot of competing forms of media to occupy people's time beyond just listening to music. That's part of why I said, in one of my previous posts, that the music boom in the 20th century may be somewhat of an aberration. Though more equitable compensation for streaming would be a great thing, I have my doubts that things can ever get back to even a healthy fraction of where they once were. We just live in a different world now. I'd be happy to have my cynicism proven wrong. On a related note, this live stream thing that has been going on during Covid has given me some interesting thoughts. Though I was initially frustrated at the fact that I couldn't just watch it whenever I wanted, and had to find time to watch it when it was actually being livestreamed, I've decided that the fleeting nature of that may provide a model for a future way to grab people's attention and potentially turn that into income. As an example, Tom Petty's Bday bash this weekend was great. That was a fleeting thing that required a person to set aside time to watch it. You couldn't just watch it whenever, because it was livestreamed and, to my knowledge, isn't even available in an archived format online. The same thing happened with the John Prine Bday celebration recently. Anyway, the point is that, and I'm just thinking out loud here, I suppose there could be a way to provide people with some artistic output via streaming or physical media such as vinyl, but then offer companion material only available via fleeting events such as livestreams or listening parties. And monetize it. Example: Here's the new single from my album available now on Spotify to stream, per usual. If you want to listen to the rest of the album, we'll be having a livestreamed listening party on such and such date/time on my website. $5 (or whatever) gets you in for this special event. The album will be available for streaming at a later date (three months later or whatever) but, if you want to hear it NOW, it won't be archived. You have to tune in and pay for the livestream or wait a while to be able to stream it or otherwise listen to it. So maybe livestream it first, offer it up for sale a while later (so it isn't so easy to just pirate it right out of the gate), and then ultimately allow it to be streamed on Spotify at some later date. Maybe even incentivize a potential earlier release on streaming formats based on predetermined sales thresholds of the livestream and album purchases (physical and download)? At least that way the artist gets a chance to take a bite before everyone else does, and the exclusivity breeds a little excitement. Just a thought.
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 25, 2020 14:17:18 GMT -6
Interesting, how are you getting the single on Spotify?
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Post by Quint on Oct 25, 2020 14:44:28 GMT -6
Interesting, how are you getting the single on Spotify? Well to be clear, when I said "my album" I was just speaking in the first person, from a hypothetical standpoint. I haven't done any of this myself. It was just a thought that had occurred to me. An artist would get their stuff on streaming platforms, same as has always been done.
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 25, 2020 14:48:36 GMT -6
All good !
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Post by christopher on Oct 25, 2020 14:56:44 GMT -6
With this discussion I can see a possible ray of hope. We switched to Verizon last year and they gave us 1 year of Apple iTunes for free. I never got into MP3s when they were $1 because the quality was terrible 128, (even though for years it was “all my imagination“.. ). Anyway now they are higher resolution and I can enjoy them. And it’s so incredibly convenient it’s amazing, and I can listen while working, the day is actually worth living. The biggest downside is the guilt knowing the art is being exploited. I’ve noticed something though, it’s a tiny little annoyance to look up albums I want to hear, so when I listen to something I like, I’m allowed to “add to my library”. In the past I would have had to purchase it I believe. Anyway, now I’m putting stuff I never EVER would have checked out into my library. And the best of those I’m definitely going to buy a physical copy or at least digital downloads. It’s like I have to own full res copy. But for convenience, iTunes is just perfect so I won’t be listening to physical copy much, just iTunes.
Here’s how I think they could do it:
when I add an album to library they should charge me a monthly fee for as long as it’s in my library. If it starts really low.. less than 50 cents, then eventually over the years it’s going to earn much more than a single album sale. For example, 50 cents a month for 10 years, $60.. Apple keeps 30%= $42 to the record label.
If it’s cheap, it will allow people to want to fill their libraries and be too lazy about weeding out the stuff they don’t listen to anymore.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Oct 25, 2020 15:04:34 GMT -6
But, like I said, I'm sure I'm an outlier... I do the same - mostly album format, even if streaming. And if I really like something, even just a couple of songs (Metric's last album comes to mind) I buy the vinyl. Usually, that's very rewarding both in the physical aspects of the record and in the mostly high-quality releases being put out. Doves' latest, I bought in deluxe format and the presentation is just awesome. Same with the anniversary editions of Oasis' first two records that I just picked up. Problem is, it's at least $3K to make a run of records and all but maybe 2% of artists can really sell them. The days of thumbing through the racks were so good and there's a small comeback being made there. All that said, most people don't do music that way anymore. Lots of great perspective and interesting points in this thread. Thanks for that.
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Post by Quint on Oct 25, 2020 15:13:37 GMT -6
But, like I said, I'm sure I'm an outlier... I do the same - mostly album format, even if streaming. And if I really like something, even just a couple of songs (Metric's last album comes to mind) I buy the vinyl. Usually, that's very rewarding both in the physical aspects of the record and in the mostly high-quality releases being put out. Doves' latest, I bought in deluxe format and the presentation is just awesome. Same with the anniversary editions of Oasis' first two records that I just picked up. Problem is, it's at least $3K to make a run of records and all but maybe 2% of artists can really sell them. The days of thumbing through the racks were so good and there's a small comeback being made there. All that said, most people don't do music that way anymore. Lots of great perspective and interesting points in this thread. Thanks for that. Plenty of the albums I listen to are on streaming platforms, probably the majority, these days. I still do love vinyl though. Vinyl buys are generally reserved for my favorite albums, but I've got a few 100 so far. It's always growing.
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Post by michaelcleary on Oct 25, 2020 16:20:22 GMT -6
This is an interesting time for me as I just released a record. I posted it in the whatcha working on thread but here it is as well, michaelclearyband.com/album/1752847/last-man-standingThe background of how I made the record and who contributed is here. mailchi.mp/6a5d28dad4da/michael-cleary-releases-new-album-last-man-standing?fbclid=IwAR3vNvDffoOCW8NZen3RKqMlCKj2_89SQcV8VPgltQDO1VTWUlQUpm-2-58when Covid hit, I decided to retire from performing. I embraced the downtime and made this record in about 6 months, as opposed to usually taking years with my band. I credit the speed to being the only person making decisions and not having to do art by committee, along chipping away at it every night. I am lucky that I have a decent day gig to support my music habit and usually it is has been self sufficient enough to fund itself as well. This time I sunk some actual money into some promotion to see what happens since I have never tried that before. I'll be happy if I get some airplay and a write up or two. Initial sales directly from my website since the release yesterday have earned just over $100.00. 6 physical CDs and three album downloads. I have 1000 people on an email list and am connected to about 10k people on social media. I'm not famous by any stretch but fairly well known in my area, kind of a medium fish in a tiny pond. I'm not expecting to make any real money, as I have never made any real money selling music in 30 years, and this album will never recoup what I have put into it but I knew that going in. My expectation is to enjoy what I'm doing, finally using my studio to its full potential in a way that is efficient and productive for me as an artist. I know I am extremely lucky and I am very grateful to be in the position that I am in. Most musicians that I know are truly struggling. Its been nearly impossible for a full time musician to live above the poverty level without some supplemental gig and now, with covid, its really impossible. I just wanted to chime in with my experience as someone tagged me in this, but I am one of the lucky ones to be able to be self sufficient and not have to earn from my art alone. I'll keep ya posted on how it goes but I dont expect to actually sell much more after these first few days. With that being said, I'm getting ready to do the next one with the goal of having another release ready to go by this time next year.
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Post by indiehouse on Oct 25, 2020 16:39:21 GMT -6
Years ago, I was at a bar in my hometown having a drink with friends. There was a band playing, young kids. They were decent. I went up during their break to tell them that I dug their sound. They proceeded to tell me that they knew me and watched me play in bands when they were younger, and inspired them to play in a band. Made my day. For me, if I can inspire something, anything, in one person with a song, then it's worth it. I mean, you can't pay your bills with inspiration, but I never tried to go down that road. For what it's worth, wiz, you inspired me countless times. I have been meaning to buy your record. Time is a relentless beast right now. If I buy your record, can you just send me some wav files? No need to ship me a CD halfway across the globe. I don't think I have a CD player anymore.
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Post by michaelcleary on Oct 25, 2020 16:48:38 GMT -6
Years ago, I was at a bar in my hometown having a drink with friends. There was a band playing, young kids. They were decent. I went up during their break to tell them that I dug their sound. They proceeded to tell me that they knew me and watched me play in bands when they were younger, and inspired them to play in a band. Made my day. For me, if I can inspire something, anything, in one person with a song, then it's worth it. I mean, you can't pay your bills with inspiration, but I never tried to go down that road. For what it's worth, wiz , you inspired me countless times. I have been meaning to buy your record. Time is a relentless beast right now. If I buy your record, can you just send me some wav files? No need to ship me a CD halfway across the globe. I don't think I have a CD player anymore. Great story right there. I had the opposite experience with a long time musician in my area that was in one of the 1st, and best, local bands I have ever seen. I saw him outside a club and told him how he inspired me as a musician and it made his day, he was so grateful and happy. We ended up becoming good friends and would sit in with each other whenever possible. When he checked in with me end of last year, I told him I working on a new album, sent him some demos and he co-wrote some bridges for three of the songs.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 25, 2020 17:12:17 GMT -6
I teach beginner's guitar to kids as one side gig. So I hear directly from young people between 8 and 16 years old. They get music on a streaming service for $10 month. They never buy anything. Everything they ever want to hear is right there.
They look at me with a strange look when I mention buying music, like they just don't understand. It's not their fault.
The only way for singer/writers to ever make a dollar now would be if streaming services are required by law to pay a mandatory minimum amount to creators. Until then, we're fucked, unless you're 20 years old and can tour.
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Post by wiz on Oct 25, 2020 17:35:24 GMT -6
Thank you all for your considered responses.... some gave me a laugh, which is just what I needed.
Thanks also to those who reached out, appreciate it....
In some ways I knew this was coming, and I guess subconsciously why I dumped so much gear and changed the setup ... get while the going is good sort of thing.
Thanks again
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by wiz on Oct 25, 2020 17:38:25 GMT -6
Years ago, I was at a bar in my hometown having a drink with friends. There was a band playing, young kids. They were decent. I went up during their break to tell them that I dug their sound. They proceeded to tell me that they knew me and watched me play in bands when they were younger, and inspired them to play in a band. Made my day. For me, if I can inspire something, anything, in one person with a song, then it's worth it. I mean, you can't pay your bills with inspiration, but I never tried to go down that road. For what it's worth, wiz , you inspired me countless times. I have been meaning to buy your record. Time is a relentless beast right now. If I buy your record, can you just send me some wav files? No need to ship me a CD halfway across the globe. I don't think I have a CD player anymore. Thanks for the compliment.. of course, pm me... cheers Wiz
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Post by yotonic on Oct 25, 2020 17:42:57 GMT -6
I am not looking for sympathy... but I felt it would be good for me to share this....as I share good things about my music....and honestly I need to get it off my chest. The last album i released , was number 7. I have a pretty good profile in the area I live in...well known...respected. Now I am in regional Australia...so don’t think star,...think local muso... Album sales have been slowly going south....over the last few years. For this album I got more “exposure” than any previous. lots of radio...print etc. My locals sales in shop this time around...... wait for it... 2. that is not a typo. that is between July to now. 2. it’s humiliating. a few years back that would be hundreds locally. 2. I have sold some online and a few in person. I couldn’t buy a round of beers for you guys with the proceeds....and I do everything myself and apart from time doing it I have no overheads. Now I know what a lot of you are going to say.....CD sales blah blah...touring blah blah.... I just need to share it or I am gonna slump..... You guys are my peers and will understand the struggle....sure tomorrow I will dust myself off and go back to the studio.... F;::k I make more money playing poker.... Sorry, man...I know the feeling. I put together one little ep years ago...when there were still actual album sales. I sold 11. I have more than 11 people in my family. Even they didn’t buy it. I’ve been doing some solo writes and cutting them with session guys. Been sending them to some publishing guys that said “sure, man, love to hear what you’re doing these days...” can’t get a single one of them to listen to them. I know because I track the pitches. All I’d want to do is have an admin deal and give away half my publishing in trade for their creative staff. No interest. The truth is, being a singer songwriter is like being a blacksmith. There are still a few around that make a living at it - but there’s just not a lot of demand for horseshoes. And oh yeah - our “horseshoes” are free. The primary way to make a living is to be able to tour and sell merch and music that way...then hopefully you get a big enough social media following that a label sees you as a commodity that they can come in and exploit to make even more money. That’s for the young dreamers to chase...I don’t have the will or the foolishness to play those odds anymore. At this point, it’s got to be purely about your love for it. Only for yourself. I mean - I know you know that...but that’s where we are these days, unfortunately. This reply should be pinned "Reality of the music business"
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2020 18:15:30 GMT -6
I teach beginner's guitar to kids as one side gig. So I hear directly from young people between 8 and 16 years old. They get music on a streaming service for $10 month. They never buy anything. Everything they ever want to hear is right there. They look at me with a strange look when I mention buying music, like they just don't understand. It's not their fault. The only way for singer/writers to ever make a dollar now would be if streaming services are required by law to pay a mandatory minimum amount to creators. Until then, we're fucked, unless you're 20 years old and can tour. This exactly. Just a reminder also that the Spotify guys made a bunch of cash as pirates first. "After selling Advertigo, Ek briefly became the CEO of μTorrent, working with μTorrent founder Ludvig Strigeus. This ended when μTorrent was sold to BitTorrent on December 7 of 2006. Strigeus would later join Ek as a Spotify developer.[7]" We have let thieves steal all the music, "go legit", and then set the terms for how they will pay the creators pennies, while selling it all back to the world for billions. It wasn't bad enough to give the world Abba and "melodic death metal"; this is just some salt in the wound.
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 25, 2020 18:50:02 GMT -6
Only classics, metal bands, and golden age hip hop acts seem to sell CDs now. Most people seem to care neither about sound quality nor even music really. They don’t even have decent hifis anymore. Hip-hop is Golden Age?
Man, I really AM getting old!
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 25, 2020 18:58:11 GMT -6
When we allow something to be assigned no value, it has no value. The I oy reason we look back and think, “man, I listened to that album backwards and forward” is because we spent $15 on it - basically because of the single and then eventually got around to listening to the rest of the album. Ultimately the rest of the album grew on us too. I think songwriters will ultimately figure it out again, but it will probably take another 20-50 years. Blockchain (from what I’m told) could fix it immediately. Unfortunately, that’s too late for me. How is Blockchain supposerd to do that? From what I hear it's essentially just another digital currency scam.
Please elucidate.
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 25, 2020 19:02:41 GMT -6
I teach beginner's guitar to kids as one side gig. So I hear directly from young people between 8 and 16 years old. They get music on a streaming service for $10 month. They never buy anything. Everything they ever want to hear is right there. They look at me with a strange look when I mention buying music, like they just don't understand. It's not their fault. The only way for singer/writers to ever make a dollar now would be if streaming services are required by law to pay a mandatory minimum amount to creators. Until then, we're fucked, unless you're 20 years old and can tour. This exactly. Just a reminder also that the Spotify guys made a bunch of cash as pirates first. "After selling Advertigo, Ek briefly became the CEO of μTorrent, working with μTorrent founder Ludvig Strigeus. This ended when μTorrent was sold to BitTorrent on December 7 of 2006. Strigeus would later join Ek as a Spotify developer.[7]" We have let thieves steal all the music, "go legit", and then set the terms for how they will pay the creators pennies, while selling it all back to the world for billions. It wasn't bad enough to give the world Abba and "melodic death metal"; this is just some salt in the wound. The real pisser is that they TOLD US IN ADVANCE that their intention was to destroy the music industry.
What I'd like to see (but will never happen) is for all of us to file a class action suit, take ALL their money, and destroy their business.
Yeah, I watched Erin Brockovitch on TV last weekend. Twice.
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