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Post by wiz on Oct 24, 2020 18:36:36 GMT -6
I am not looking for sympathy... but I felt it would be good for me to share this....as I share good things about my music....and honestly I need to get it off my chest.
The last album i released , was number 7.
I have a pretty good profile in the area I live in...well known...respected. Now I am in regional Australia...so don’t think star,...think local muso...
Album sales have been slowly going south....over the last few years.
For this album I got more “exposure” than any previous.
lots of radio...print etc.
My locals sales in shop this time around......
wait for it...
2.
that is not a typo.
that is between July to now.
2.
it’s humiliating.
a few years back that would be hundreds locally.
2.
I have sold some online and a few in person.
I couldn’t buy a round of beers for you guys with the proceeds....and I do everything myself and apart from time doing it I have no overheads.
Now I know what a lot of you are going to say.....CD sales blah blah...touring blah blah....
I just need to share it or I am gonna slump.....
You guys are my peers and will understand the struggle....sure tomorrow I will dust myself off and go back to the studio....
F;::k I make more money playing poker....
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Post by drbill on Oct 24, 2020 18:47:38 GMT -6
Sorry to hear that Wiz. I'm sure you feel horrible, but please keep in mind that the low sales are not a reflection of you - but of the industry and world we currently find ourselves in.
All I can say is that if we continue to do things the "traditional" way, it is most likely going to turn out similar to what you have experienced. Doing things differently - outside the box, taking on new tools to market yourself, etc. is the only hope. It still might end up in small amounts of income, but at least you/we did our best. I have a new plan for this coming year, and when I'm a couple to three years in, if it works, I'll share it. But it's EXTREMELY non-traditional.
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Post by the other mark williams on Oct 24, 2020 18:47:54 GMT -6
I've been wondering how it's been going for you with the Facebook ad project a few months/weeks ago.
I could go into a whole bunch of stuff here saying things like, "I wonder how many physical sales other bands/artists are having during COVID," and stuff like that, but honestly, what matters is that it's understandably hurtful to you. You spent a lot of time on and put a lot of heart into the album, and it feels to you like the world isn't listening.
So all I can answer with is to say that I appreciate you, wiz. I appreciate your writing and your authentic creative voice. I believe the world is a better place with your voice in it.
Thank you for sharing.
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Post by gwlee7 on Oct 24, 2020 18:55:49 GMT -6
I can’t say much about any of this except that you have helped me tremendously by your willingness to share your craft both as a musician and an engineer. That won’t feed the bulldog I know but also know how much you are appreciated here.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 24, 2020 19:09:21 GMT -6
Enjoying the record via streaming, several passes so far. Purely guessing, but Covid has to be having an effect.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 24, 2020 19:28:22 GMT -6
Only natural to feel the way you do, especially after all the work you put into crafting fine songs and albums. You are definitely appreciated here.
Sadly as musicians, who care about our music and the music and musical work of others, we live in a world with an insatiable appetite for our music but as cone to believe they don’t actually have to pay a fair price for it and just expect to both have it for pennies and for it to be there for them.
I hesitate to think what any 10 of us here have invested in total in our musical pursuits to date, not chump change that’s for sure.
I now see my songs like my children or like a fine new friendship, I put my best effort into raising them, but they are in their own path or I no longer harbour preconceived ideas about what will make a friendship good: it will be, what it will be.
We are always here for you, Wiz, thanks for letting us know how you feel, so we can help celebrate you. Tomorrow’s another day!
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Post by EmRR on Oct 24, 2020 19:41:39 GMT -6
CDs are dead. .... now that they're equaled by streaming and downloads .
I wouldn't say equaled, but damn close. It's not many things I want to buy the physical package anymore, but when I do it does usually sound a bit better. The streaming game seems to be about getting placed on playlists, apparently most music is consumed that way. The few clients I have who sell any quantity of CD's are the ones playing the wine bars for the older crowd, who WILL still buy on the spot....but the wine bars have to be open, and people have to be going out....
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2020 20:07:10 GMT -6
Only classics, metal bands, and golden age hip hop acts seem to sell CDs now. Most people seem to care neither about sound quality nor even music really. They don’t even have decent hifis anymore.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 24, 2020 20:20:17 GMT -6
I am not looking for sympathy... but I felt it would be good for me to share this....as I share good things about my music....and honestly I need to get it off my chest. The last album i released , was number 7. I have a pretty good profile in the area I live in...well known...respected. Now I am in regional Australia...so don’t think star,...think local muso... Album sales have been slowly going south....over the last few years. For this album I got more “exposure” than any previous. lots of radio...print etc. My locals sales in shop this time around...... wait for it... 2. that is not a typo. that is between July to now. 2. it’s humiliating. a few years back that would be hundreds locally. 2. I have sold some online and a few in person. I couldn’t buy a round of beers for you guys with the proceeds....and I do everything myself and apart from time doing it I have no overheads. Now I know what a lot of you are going to say.....CD sales blah blah...touring blah blah.... I just need to share it or I am gonna slump..... You guys are my peers and will understand the struggle....sure tomorrow I will dust myself off and go back to the studio.... F;::k I make more money playing poker.... Sorry, man...I know the feeling. I put together one little ep years ago...when there were still actual album sales. I sold 11. I have more than 11 people in my family. Even they didn’t buy it. I’ve been doing some solo writes and cutting them with session guys. Been sending them to some publishing guys that said “sure, man, love to hear what you’re doing these days...” can’t get a single one of them to listen to them. I know because I track the pitches. All I’d want to do is have an admin deal and give away half my publishing in trade for their creative staff. No interest. The truth is, being a singer songwriter is like being a blacksmith. There are still a few around that make a living at it - but there’s just not a lot of demand for horseshoes. And oh yeah - our “horseshoes” are free. The primary way to make a living is to be able to tour and sell merch and music that way...then hopefully you get a big enough social media following that a label sees you as a commodity that they can come in and exploit to make even more money. That’s for the young dreamers to chase...I don’t have the will or the foolishness to play those odds anymore. At this point, it’s got to be purely about your love for it. Only for yourself. I mean - I know you know that...but that’s where we are these days, unfortunately.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 24, 2020 20:22:43 GMT -6
Enjoying the record via streaming, several passes so far. Purely guessing, but Covid has to be having an effect. I think the thing having the effect is streaming, not Covid. There are literally zero sales of albums. Virtually no mechanical sales anymore - at least in the US.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 24, 2020 20:46:57 GMT -6
You know, THIS is what I was talking about in that thread about developing some sort of chart here at RGO. I don’t really want there to be competition per se - but maybe that would encourage people to listen...I don’t even know how I could implement something like that...but I do know there are hundreds of thousands of musicians and songwriters like us that feel completely lost and undervalued. Honestly, I look forward to posting my new stuff here because that’s mostly where I get clicks...and nobody else gives. A. Fuck.
But this site is no different. And I don’t mean this as an admonishment...but outside of one member who donates $20 a month on and off - to which I’ve told him it’s waaaay too much...(I think he might have it as a recurring payment so I don’t want to look a gift horse in the mouth lol) I’ve probably averaged around $75 total dollars in donations per year since 2013. I don’t bring it up because it’s not really that big a deal...I made this site because I wanted to and it was never about any money. I’ve made a little bit of money on banner ads in the past. Usually ask a company for six months or a year commitment...For the same amount of average ad impressions, Gearslutz was charging 25 times what I charge. And still - absolutely no one is interested. Same amount of impressions. Oh - and that was GS’s rates from like 7 years ago.
But just like doing what we do - it’s just too much to do it all. I can’t mentally handle being a songwriter, producer, multi instrumentalist, engineer, publisher, head of a record label, marketing guy, internet guy, web admin, SEO guy - and it goes on and on. It’s too much. I’ve had to just let go and focus on the parts that make me happy. And I’m happier.
But if anyone that has the internet marketing skills to blow this site up into a huge money maker content site...and wants to do the work, there’s half Ownership waiting for you lol. I can’t do it all on my own. None of us can.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 24, 2020 20:50:33 GMT -6
Well just think in some country some where you sold enough to go gold🤔
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 24, 2020 20:54:35 GMT -6
Hey wiz - if it makes you feel any better, I had a No.4 with Jasmine Rae on the Australian Country charts. Never saw a single cent. Not one solitary cent.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 24, 2020 20:57:29 GMT -6
Enjoying the record via streaming, several passes so far. Purely guessing, but Covid has to be having an effect. I think the thing having the effect is streaming, not Covid. There are literally zero sales of albums. Virtually no mechanical sales anymore - at least in the US. Yeah, I mean if Peter was gonna sell 20 in the local shops in 2020, Covid knocked that down to 2. This Avett record I just did had CD/vinyl/download first week sales of 11.5K, with 5-6 colors of vinyl, and many who bought one of each color. That's abysmally low for the chart positions (five different top 10) and fanbase size. #4 on the iTunes album sales chart on release day. If I ignore the other Avett back catalog I'm associated with, the first 2 days streaming of the advance single alone was greater than EVERYTHING ELSE I'VE EVER DONE IN 26 YEARS, COMBINED. The odds are not great! The 'success' above is an aberration I'm lucky to be associated with. They clearly make their money through tour and merch in normal times. I don't mean to seem tone deaf with that, and I thought about not posting it, but thought it worth looking at how not great it is way up the food chain as well.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 24, 2020 21:00:51 GMT -6
You know, THIS is what I was talking about in that thread about developing some sort of chart here at RGO. I don’t really want there to be competition per se - but But this site is no different. And I don’t mean this as an admonishment...but outside of one member who donates $20 a month on and off - to which I’ve told him it’s waaaay too much...(I think he might have it as a recurring payment so I don’t want to look a gift horse in the mouth lol) I’ve probably averaged around $75 total dollars in donations per year since 2013. Ouch! I know I kicked a $20 in there at some point, hope it wasn't counterfeit.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2020 21:19:50 GMT -6
One of the last things I did got only about a hundred bucks in online revenue. Sales are also low because people don’t have money right now.
The other problem in many genres is just quality. I love metal but there’s not a lot of metal release not reissues worth buying. You can tell most of these commercial albums will suck from the art and production. It shows bands and labels themselves judged the music unworthy of a good presentation. Covers that might as well be from Fiverr and metalcore-like production.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 24, 2020 21:32:03 GMT -6
I think the thing having the effect is streaming, not Covid. There are literally zero sales of albums. Virtually no mechanical sales anymore - at least in the US. Yeah, I mean if Peter was gonna sell 20 in the local shops in 2020, Covid knocked that down to 2. This Avett record I just did had CD/vinyl/download first week sales of 11.5K, with 5-6 colors of vinyl, and many who bought one of each color. That's abysmally low for the chart positions (five different top 10) and fanbase size. #4 on the iTunes album sales chart on release day. If I ignore the other Avett back catalog I'm associated with, the first 2 days streaming of the advance single alone was greater than EVERYTHING ELSE I'VE EVER DONE IN 26 YEARS, COMBINED. The odds are not great! The 'success' above is an aberration I'm lucky to be associated with. They clearly make their money through tour and merch in normal times. Just to put it into perspective... Let’s say Wiz sold his two records for $10 apiece. That’s $20 Let’s assume that Spotify generates what they claim .005 per impression. Luckily Wiz is the sole writer, publisher, and owner of the masters - so he would get 70% of that. Spotify gets the other 30%. So - that would take about 8000 spins to earn $20. If they bother to pay. Many times a songwriter doesn’t own any or at most 50% publishing, they co-wrote it, and then don’t own the masters. So the breakdown (roughly) is streamer 30%, owner of the master recordings (usually the record label) 60% and then the creators get to split the leftover 10% between the publishing breakdowns and their co-writers. This is why you hear about the writers of Lady Antebellums “Need You Now” making about $6000 apiece for 72 million spins.
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Post by stormymondays on Oct 25, 2020 2:45:53 GMT -6
It’s heartbreaking but not unexpected, sadly.
Over the years I’ve identified a big side effect of streaming. Well, identify is too big a word - it’s just a hypothesis backed by anecdotal data.
I think streaming causes people to not buy the CD and also NOT LISTEN to the stream! The music is just there waiting for them whenever they have a chance. Sure, they mean to listen but then something else comes up. Maybe they just skim the tracks and think “sounds good, gotta give it a good listen.” Soon enough their brain tricks them into thinking they have already listened to that album that they “own” via their streaming sub.
Does this happen to you as listeners?
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Post by gwlee7 on Oct 25, 2020 7:04:24 GMT -6
It’s heartbreaking but not unexpected, sadly. Over the years I’ve identified a big side effect of streaming. Well, identify is too big a word - it’s just a hypothesis backed by anecdotal data. I think streaming causes people to not buy the CD and also NOT LISTEN to the stream! The music is just there waiting for them whenever they have a chance. Sure, they mean to listen but then something else comes up. Maybe they just skim the tracks and think “sounds good, gotta give it a good listen.” Soon enough their brain tricks them into thinking they have already listened to that album that they “own” via their streaming sub. Does this happen to you as listeners? I think this is a worthy hypothesis. Also anecdotal but, I know that I had a big incentive to listen to music as a kid when I had to ride my bike or talk my parents into taking me to the mall so I could buy the album. If I had worked and saved my money or allowance for the new ___________, I was damn sure gonna give it a good listen. As I got older and could afford more music, it was the way we listened that forced us to listen to more songs; usually an album side at the time. Even with CDs, remote control, and multidisc players, we would listen longer. Now, I have millions of songs available at the tap of my finger. It’s causing me to have the attention span of a gnat. I can use michaelcleary and his new release as an example. I went to listen and sorta clicked through till “World on Fire” caught my attention and I listened to all of that one song. If I had the album or even listening on the radio, I would be more inclined to listen to more songs.
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Post by Ward on Oct 25, 2020 7:29:11 GMT -6
This is the world we're living in now. Music is pretty much free, and younger artists are encouraging their friends to add them to their spotify playlists and then bragging about 1000 or 10,000 plays. It results in nothing.
Imagine you were we working as a server at The Outback and your tips were "man, you're doing a great job, I like your service". At the end of the day, you can't afford to buy a drink where you're working, but hey, 1000 people liked your service today.
Imagine as a customer, when the check comes, you look at your server and say "great job tonight, what's your facebook page so I can give you guys a like."
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Post by gwlee7 on Oct 25, 2020 7:31:54 GMT -6
This is the world we're living in now. Music is pretty much free, and younger artists are encouraging their friends to add them to their spotify playlists and then bragging about 1000 or 10,000 plays. It results in nothing. Imagine you were we working as a server at The Outback and your tips were "man, you're doing a great job, I like your service". At the end of the day, you can't afford to buy a drink where you're working, but hey, 1000 people liked your service today. Imagine as a customer, when the check comes, you look at your server and say "great job tonight, what's your facebook page so I can give you guys a like." Sums it up nicely.
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Post by Quint on Oct 25, 2020 7:40:29 GMT -6
It's a real bummer to say it but, as a commodity to be sold (and the profits that came with it, and the livelihoods that were supported), the music business as we knew it in the 20th century was likely just an aberration, when considering music over the course of history.
Music creation and consumption are now just simply returning to the roots from which they came. Primarily profitable (if at all) when consumed as a live experience.
But who knows, maybe things will turn around one day...
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 25, 2020 7:44:38 GMT -6
When we allow something to be assigned no value, it has no value. The I oy reason we look back and think, “man, I listened to that album backwards and forward” is because we spent $15 on it - basically because of the single and then eventually got around to listening to the rest of the album. Ultimately the rest of the album grew on us too. I think songwriters will ultimately figure it out again, but it will probably take another 20-50 years. Blockchain (from what I’m told) could fix it immediately. Unfortunately, that’s too late for me.
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Post by Ward on Oct 25, 2020 7:58:45 GMT -6
Johnkenn tell us more about 'Blockchain' please. Definition, implementation etc
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Post by Guitar on Oct 25, 2020 8:26:02 GMT -6
It’s heartbreaking but not unexpected, sadly. Over the years I’ve identified a big side effect of streaming. Well, identify is too big a word - it’s just a hypothesis backed by anecdotal data. I think streaming causes people to not buy the CD and also NOT LISTEN to the stream! The music is just there waiting for them whenever they have a chance. Sure, they mean to listen but then something else comes up. Maybe they just skim the tracks and think “sounds good, gotta give it a good listen.” Soon enough their brain tricks them into thinking they have already listened to that album that they “own” via their streaming sub. Does this happen to you as listeners? I certainly add albums to my collection and then forget about them, happens all the time. It's different when you buy a $15 disc, you put more weight on it, mentally. I don't even think my close friends are necessarily listening to each others releases right now. Also on John Kenn's "assigning no value" thing that's the sort of attitude I feel about music now from many people. "Oh you made a song. Neat. Good for you. Now what were we talking about." Ward's waiter metaphor is spot on. You have to kind of sneak them into your usual social queue with people. "Oh by the way check this out." The micro impact of my release schedule the past couple years has certainly affected my attitude about making new albums and videos. If I'm going to get hyped up about it, pretty much all of that, 100%, has to come from inside me, myself. To put it shortly I don't feel in any rush. I'm right there with you, Wiz. Tiny, tiny moments of impact with digital releases. Kind of like John said, pick the best parts you enjoy, focus on those. Nobody has time to wear 20 different hats with this stuff. Social media is a sad cold monster. The so called game plan or road map to success is no longer something I personally feel comfortable with. I just want to rock out and have good experiences on a reasonable frequency. If it's a humble life I have to live, then so it is.
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