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Post by drbill on Feb 20, 2024 9:17:47 GMT -6
That seems to be the thing so many ignore when touting the equality of plugins. That "something" that happens with laying your hands on hardware. I am a big believer in using whatever inspires you. And if plugins do that - then go that direction. But I just don't see that much. Usually, when I get a laptop warrior in, and they see all the hardware they have been emulating, they tend to go gaga nuts turning knobs and smiling a lot. And that bit of inspiration is incalculable and hugely valuable. It brings humanity back into the equation. And THAT inspiration is something that IS hearable in a mix - vs. the plugin / hardware debate. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 20, 2024 10:00:34 GMT -6
^^This^^
if you are not inspired or, at least, enthused about your mix: what about the listener ?
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Post by niklas1073 on Feb 21, 2024 4:21:57 GMT -6
That seems to be the thing so many ignore when touting the equality of plugins. That "something" that happens with laying your hands on hardware. I am a big believer in using whatever inspires you. And if plugins do that - then go that direction. But I just don't see that much. Usually, when I get a laptop warrior in, and they see all the hardware they have been emulating, they tend to go gaga nuts turning knobs and smiling a lot. And that bit of inspiration is incalculable and hugely valuable. It brings humanity back into the equation. And THAT inspiration is something that IS hearable in a mix - vs. the plugin / hardware debate. I agree to a certain point. Tracking with pristine hardware is the soul of the production. And despite being a knob spinning gear geek I must say that if I am not able to load up my studio with at least 5 pristine la2a’s, 3-5 1176, at least 3 pultecs and 3-4 meq5’s and a bunch of hlf’s, not to speak about a full neve desk of eq’s, my mix will 100% come out lesser than with plugs, as I will not be able to let the mix live and grow til the end. The inspiration for me has died long ago by the time I start to bounce track by track hoping i like the settings at the end of mix too. So to convert the convenience of itb to outboard requires so much more in investment than most commercial studios today even will be able to make a turn around on. So i suppose it depends on how you approach it. Also I have had plenty of super uninspiring sessions and mixing days where I figure out hardware issues, carry shit to service and back count bucks if i can afford a service or not etc etc. that is uninspiring as hell. But all snd all i agree, hardware and knobs are great and pristine outboard isca joy to work with. |
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Post by drbill on Feb 21, 2024 9:34:10 GMT -6
There was not nearly as much outboard gear "back in the days of classic albums" as there is today. Somehow they managed to make it.
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Post by ragan on Feb 21, 2024 9:46:32 GMT -6
Maybe because they focused on arrangement, got the sound right during tracking, and didn't fiddle everything to death during 'mixing'.
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Post by drbill on Feb 21, 2024 9:51:19 GMT -6
Maybe because they focused on arrangement, got the sound right during tracking, and didn't fiddle everything to death during 'mixing'. Maybe.  . My point was you don't need 5 LA2a's and 5 1176's ++++ to make a record. |
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Post by ragan on Feb 21, 2024 10:15:42 GMT -6
Yeah, I’m with you. 👍
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Post by Shadowk on Feb 21, 2024 10:42:20 GMT -6
There was not nearly as much outboard gear "back in the days of classic albums" as there is today. Somehow they managed to make it. Well, they had consoles and tape adding junk into the pot. Also it depends on whether someone prefers the modern or classic approach, I'm in the former camp personally..
Actually, hang on a second. Haven't you got like 9 million pieces of outboard? 
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Post by niklas1073 on Feb 21, 2024 15:20:08 GMT -6
There was not nearly as much outboard gear "back in the days of classic albums" as there is today. Somehow they managed to make it. The requirements of todays productions are something totally different. If you’d put out an album sounding pretty much anything pre 2000 you’d sound pastiche, deliberate retro or just plain under par with what is expected from a contemporary production. Most classics we listen to today we accept and feel they are great because we place them in time. Most of them i, despite all that nostalgia, have a hard time listening to because they really often are quite mediocre and bad productions by todays standards. So sure you can put up a session in a 60’s or 70’s environment and make a great record, damn, jack whites American epic recordings are great… but pastiche never the less. And already a full desk and enough outboard to track a drum set beyond a 4 mic glyn johns or similar will set most people back more than they can invest in a less than very successful studio. And there are not too many today to pull off an actual glyn johns in their productions and still being competitive in the music industry. So the classic albums reference does not really do it for me sorry. This applies probably for any artistic and non artistic industry today. |
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Post by drbill on Feb 21, 2024 15:24:59 GMT -6
There was not nearly as much outboard gear "back in the days of classic albums" as there is today. Somehow they managed to make it. The requirements of todays productions are something totally different. If you’d put out an album sounding pretty much anything pre 2000 you’d sound pastiche, deliberate retro or just plain under par with what is expected from a contemporary production. Most classics we listen to today we accept and feel they are great because we place them in time. Most of them i, despite all that nostalgia, have a hard time listening to because they really often are quite mediocre and bad productions by todays standards. So sure you can put up a session in a 60’s or 70’s environment and make a great record, damn, jack whites American epic recordings are great… but pastiche never the less. And already a full desk and enough outboard to track a drum set beyond a 4 mic glyn johns or similar will set most people back more than they can invest in a less than very successful studio. And there are not too many today to pull off an actual glyn johns in their productions and still being competitive in the music industry. So the classic albums reference does not really do it for me sorry. This applies probably for any artistic and non artistic industry today. OK then - more plugins, and modern music for you!!!!!!!! |
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Post by niklas1073 on Feb 21, 2024 15:29:18 GMT -6
The requirements of todays productions are something totally different. If you’d put out an album sounding pretty much anything pre 2000 you’d sound pastiche, deliberate retro or just plain under par with what is expected from a contemporary production. Most classics we listen to today we accept and feel they are great because we place them in time. Most of them i, despite all that nostalgia, have a hard time listening to because they really often are quite mediocre and bad productions by todays standards. So sure you can put up a session in a 60’s or 70’s environment and make a great record, damn, jack whites American epic recordings are great… but pastiche never the less. And already a full desk and enough outboard to track a drum set beyond a 4 mic glyn johns or similar will set most people back more than they can invest in a less than very successful studio. And there are not too many today to pull off an actual glyn johns in their productions and still being competitive in the music industry. So the classic albums reference does not really do it for me sorry. This applies probably for any artistic and non artistic industry today. OK then - more plugins for you!!!!!!!! No, I don’t need more plugins, I actually use extremely sparsely of them, track with outboard, commit to sound, and use hardware mixbus. So I’m not saying it’s about all about plugins. But if they wouldn’t offer better outcome workflow wise on many levels, not compromising the productions, no one in the position in the industry of carrying a full on analog studio would go down the itb path. Still probably most does. |
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Post by ragan on Feb 21, 2024 15:41:55 GMT -6
There was not nearly as much outboard gear "back in the days of classic albums" as there is today. Somehow they managed to make it. The requirements of todays productions are something totally different. If you’d put out an album sounding pretty much anything pre 2000 you’d sound pastiche, deliberate retro or just plain under par with what is expected from a contemporary production. Most classics we listen to today we accept and feel they are great because we place them in time. Most of them i, despite all that nostalgia, have a hard time listening to because they really often are quite mediocre and bad productions by todays standards. So sure you can put up a session in a 60’s or 70’s environment and make a great record, damn, jack whites American epic recordings are great… but pastiche never the less. And already a full desk and enough outboard to track a drum set beyond a 4 mic glyn johns or similar will set most people back more than they can invest in a less than very successful studio. And there are not too many today to pull off an actual glyn johns in their productions and still being competitive in the music industry. So the classic albums reference does not really do it for me sorry. This applies probably for any artistic and non artistic industry today. I disagree. I think modern production (taken as an average, using generalities) subscribes to the “make everything bigger than everything else” philosophy, which generates an end result where everything sounds small. If you level match a modern, sausage master, full of gridded everything, 100% sample replaced drums, Melodyne’d everything, etc with a great 70s production, it’s not even a fair fight (again, using generalities). One sounds full of life, open, with character and emotive qualities coming across, and the other sounds like a Verizon commercial played over grocery store speakers. Wildly subjective, obvs. But that’s my take. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 21, 2024 15:52:19 GMT -6
Maybe because they focused on arrangement, got the sound right during tracking, and didn't fiddle everything to death during 'mixing'. Maybe. . My point was you don't need 5 LA2a's and 5 1176's ++++ to make a record. Ah, how many total pieces of gear are you looking at now? |
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Post by drbill on Feb 21, 2024 16:07:07 GMT -6
Maybe. . My point was you don't need 5 LA2a's and 5 1176's ++++ to make a record. Ah, how many total pieces of gear are you looking at now? More than I NEED to do a record, that's for sure. |
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Post by niklas1073 on Feb 21, 2024 16:09:24 GMT -6
The requirements of todays productions are something totally different. If you’d put out an album sounding pretty much anything pre 2000 you’d sound pastiche, deliberate retro or just plain under par with what is expected from a contemporary production. Most classics we listen to today we accept and feel they are great because we place them in time. Most of them i, despite all that nostalgia, have a hard time listening to because they really often are quite mediocre and bad productions by todays standards. So sure you can put up a session in a 60’s or 70’s environment and make a great record, damn, jack whites American epic recordings are great… but pastiche never the less. And already a full desk and enough outboard to track a drum set beyond a 4 mic glyn johns or similar will set most people back more than they can invest in a less than very successful studio. And there are not too many today to pull off an actual glyn johns in their productions and still being competitive in the music industry. So the classic albums reference does not really do it for me sorry. This applies probably for any artistic and non artistic industry today. I disagree. I think modern production (taken as an average, using generalities) subscribes to the “make everything bigger than everything else” philosophy, which generates an end result where everything sounds small. If you level match a modern, sausage master, full of gridded everything, 100% sample replaced drums, Melodyne’d everything, etc with a great 70s production, it’s not even a fair fight (again, using generalities). One sounds full of life, open, with character and emotive qualities coming across, and the other sounds like a Verizon commercial played over grocery store speakers. Wildly subjective, obvs. But that’s my take. I agree with you to some extent. Maybe we need to differentiate aesthetics and purely the technical part of productions. I mean, most stereo recordings up to early 70’s are just ridiculous and for a long time it wasn’t even an artistic choice but a decision from record companies etc. And yes 70’s is a new era. And i get what you refer to with modern productions, but I think you refer to aesthetics, not the possibilities in the right hands. Andrew Scheps is a good example of great track record in modern productions where the aesthetics don’t need to get compromised but rather enhanced by the tech at hands. The remixes of the beatles albums are also I think a rare example of how it could/should have been done, despite they were great to the standards of their time. But as you said, at the end of the day it’s a very subjective discussion and the aim is not conversion but cool to see different approaches to the same subject of putting out the best possible mix. |
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Post by Shadowk on Feb 21, 2024 16:31:02 GMT -6
I disagree. I think modern production (taken as an average, using generalities) subscribes to the “make everything bigger than everything else” philosophy, which generates an end result where everything sounds small. If you level match a modern, sausage master, full of gridded everything, 100% sample replaced drums, Melodyne’d everything, etc with a great 70s production, it’s not even a fair fight (again, using generalities). One sounds full of life, open, with character and emotive qualities coming across, and the other sounds like a Verizon commercial played over grocery store speakers. Wildly subjective, obvs. But that’s my take. I completely disagree with that, we haven't suddenly forgotten how to create, mix or master quality productions in the 2XXX's. What contributed mainly to all these sonic messes whether acoustic or VST based was the loudness wars, Death Magnetic for example doesn't automatically sound amazing just because they used real instruments. Now streaming has become normalised we're getting back to a bit of quality. Again I've compared some modern dance tracks to 70's / 80's music and when volume matched the thing that struck me the most is how little we've actually moved on in the last 45 years. Besides from a bit more clarity (mainly vocals) and extra bass there just wasn't much in it..
It's probably because said dance track was created by a team of professionals who knew exactly what they were doing and they are far from the only one's. I think this sort of generalisation "on average" is just an insult to those who work extremely hard to achieve an impressive modern sound. Personally I think it gets more interesting when we come to specific soundtracks or game audio but a lot of modern productions are IMO excellent.
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Post by Dan on Feb 21, 2024 16:49:07 GMT -6
OK then - more plugins for you!!!!!!!! No, I don’t need more plugins, I actually use extremely sparsely of them, track with outboard, commit to sound, and use hardware mixbus. So I’m not saying it’s about all about plugins. But if they wouldn’t offer better outcome workflow wise on many levels, not compromising the productions, no one in the position in the industry of carrying a full on analog studio would go down the itb path. Still probably most does. The excess of distorted outboard is more modern sounding than better modern plugins, which do not distort in normal use, eg TDR Kotelnikov and Sound Radix Powair. |
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Post by Dan on Feb 21, 2024 17:16:48 GMT -6
The requirements of todays productions are something totally different. If you’d put out an album sounding pretty much anything pre 2000 you’d sound pastiche, deliberate retro or just plain under par with what is expected from a contemporary production. Most classics we listen to today we accept and feel they are great because we place them in time. Most of them i, despite all that nostalgia, have a hard time listening to because they really often are quite mediocre and bad productions by todays standards. So sure you can put up a session in a 60’s or 70’s environment and make a great record, damn, jack whites American epic recordings are great… but pastiche never the less. And already a full desk and enough outboard to track a drum set beyond a 4 mic glyn johns or similar will set most people back more than they can invest in a less than very successful studio. And there are not too many today to pull off an actual glyn johns in their productions and still being competitive in the music industry. So the classic albums reference does not really do it for me sorry. This applies probably for any artistic and non artistic industry today. I disagree. I think modern production (taken as an average, using generalities) subscribes to the “make everything bigger than everything else” philosophy, which generates an end result where everything sounds small. If you level match a modern, sausage master, full of gridded everything, 100% sample replaced drums, Melodyne’d everything, etc with a great 70s production, it’s not even a fair fight (again, using generalities). One sounds full of life, open, with character and emotive qualities coming across, and the other sounds like a Verizon commercial played over grocery store speakers. Wildly subjective, obvs. But that’s my take. Everything is fake except for the vocals usually. It's about conformity. It's not about loudness anymore. The same distorted gear and plugins (clean things won't make them sound the same as everyone else), the same samples, the same amp sims, the same pedals if they even use them, the same mics, the same underlying music. Apologists will call it aestheticism but the aesthetics are uniform, unrealistic, and indistinguishable. |
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Post by ragan on Feb 21, 2024 17:35:30 GMT -6
I disagree. I think modern production (taken as an average, using generalities) subscribes to the “make everything bigger than everything else” philosophy, which generates an end result where everything sounds small. If you level match a modern, sausage master, full of gridded everything, 100% sample replaced drums, Melodyne’d everything, etc with a great 70s production, it’s not even a fair fight (again, using generalities). One sounds full of life, open, with character and emotive qualities coming across, and the other sounds like a Verizon commercial played over grocery store speakers. Wildly subjective, obvs. But that’s my take. Everything is fake except for the vocals usually. It's about conformity. It's not about loudness anymore. The same distorted gear and plugins (clean things won't make them sound the same as everyone else), the same samples, the same amp sims, the same pedals if they even use them, the same mics, the same underlying music. Apologists will call it aestheticism but the aesthetics are uniform, unrealistic, and indistinguishable. I mean, in lots and lots of pop, the vocals are essentially fake too now. |
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Post by Shadowk on Feb 21, 2024 17:57:45 GMT -6
It does help to look a bit outside the masses for some really interesting and somewhat crazy stuff although if you don't like modern then you're probably not going to look for it, there's always been lots of sucky music it's just more accessible now.
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Post by Dan on Feb 21, 2024 18:05:43 GMT -6
Everything is fake except for the vocals usually. It's about conformity. It's not about loudness anymore. The same distorted gear and plugins (clean things won't make them sound the same as everyone else), the same samples, the same amp sims, the same pedals if they even use them, the same mics, the same underlying music. Apologists will call it aestheticism but the aesthetics are uniform, unrealistic, and indistinguishable. I mean, in lots and lots of pop, the vocals are essentially fake too now. Totally. They're tuned and comped from hundreds of takes which can be done in different rooms with modern software, can be shifted without speeding them up or slowing down, can be made to sound like they have perfect mic technique with the dual detector compressors, you can even fake the proximity effect, and then run through whatever hardware or software they want to conform to whatever flavor of the month aesthetic they choose to. |
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Post by ragan on Feb 21, 2024 18:14:36 GMT -6
It does help to look a bit outside the masses for some really interesting and somewhat crazy stuff although if you don't like modern then you're probably not going to look for it, there's always been lots of sucky music it's just more accessible now. For sure, that’s why I mentioned talking in generalities. Taking the middle of the normal curve. There are always exceptions and outliers. |
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Post by ragan on Feb 21, 2024 18:15:43 GMT -6
And I think there are lots of great sounding modern productions. I’m just speaking (disdainfully) about where the center of gravity is in modern production aesthetic.
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Post by ragan on Feb 21, 2024 18:24:32 GMT -6
Here’s a modern production that I think sounds righteous.
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Post by jacobamerritt on Feb 21, 2024 20:07:43 GMT -6
Everything is fake except for the vocals usually. It's about conformity. It's not about loudness anymore. The same distorted gear and plugins (clean things won't make them sound the same as everyone else), the same samples, the same amp sims, the same pedals if they even use them, the same mics, the same underlying music. Apologists will call it aestheticism but the aesthetics are uniform, unrealistic, and indistinguishable. We must be generally listening to and making different records. |
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. My point was you don't need 5 LA2a's and 5 1176's ++++ to make a record.
