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Post by mrholmes on Nov 24, 2021 12:43:06 GMT -6
I saw that but it also says "in stock in 1 - 2 weeks" which in Covid-Era shopping could mean literally anything.
God created e-mail just ask .... NO RISK NO FUN....
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 24, 2021 7:11:55 GMT -6
M160 for $489? Too good to be true? link
429 @ Thomann USA
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 22, 2021 19:44:03 GMT -6
Today you can have everything ITB. The crap SSL sound, that NEVE or API thing.
It's just a matter of getting to know the plug ins better and better. I'm sorry but this is not true. You an have an APPROXIMATION of everything ITB. And really, not even that. Not "everything". There are a lot of analog pieces I love that are not modeled as plugins. If you want to mix ITB - Go for it!! Don't call it an equal to analog. It's not. Just as analog is not an equal to digital. Use both for what they are best at and be happy. To prove your way is best when others disagree is not helpful. Use BOTH and get further faster. This thread is tedious..... I'm probably in a crappy mood, as I've got Covid and can spare no empathy right now. LOL Be safe all.... I am totally happy with your opinion, but my experience is a different one. I don’t miss any of my old HW gear… The new Kelvin Saturator makes the impression of an swiss army knife and let’s me choose the artifacts which I may miss … by some plugs. I can combine diffrent stages in parallel or series or ms. It also simulates subtle side harmonics. Sounds absolutely lovely on some subs or on the mix bus. There is no more desire to strap my 1073 across the mix bus. But hey that’s just me seeing myself using Kelvin again and again and again.... Usually that’s a good sign for any audio gear....
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 22, 2021 16:17:08 GMT -6
I don't get the point, I make the experience that I simply dial in what I miss. The rest is getting used to a different workflow, a different way to get the goal.
Was it a PITA to find out how I get the low spectrum sit right, mixing ITB. Yes it was, and sometimes still is, but I am getting used to it, and then it's light-years easier compared to the racks and the desk.
It really does depend on what desk you were using. Most desks stereo mix busses are very average chip based pathways. I would prefer mixing ITB than using a chip based mix bus (even an SSL).
Today you can have everything ITB. The crap SSL sound, that NEVE or API thing.
It's just a matter of getting to know the plug ins better and better.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 22, 2021 12:19:04 GMT -6
Hey guys... I was doing some reading last night and came across an old M Brauer interview in TapeOp. Somehow it escaped my attention that he's using dual-mono instead of stereo on his bus compressors. This makes sense to me for tracks where you don't have hard panned stereo sources (super mono as some call it). But I was curious what others are doing? (In the spirit of something mrholmes said, this is the first of a couple of posts on HOW we use our gear, not just what gear we use)
I just can speak for the way I use MB compression. I love to use the SPL Iron in MS mode because it gives some extra harmonics to the sides. This reminds me a lot, mixing into one of my EX-tube-compressors.
Some other Ideas:
I am also pretty much convinced that real gear does create more harmonics in the side signal, which makes the impression of dimension. I have found only two plug ins helping in a good way with this.
1. Elysia Karacter...
2. Tone Projects Kelvin (very good for this because it does this also on mono signals).
Furthermore, since Goodherts CanOpener I find it extremely helpful to mix the low end on my AKG K 701 and to check back on my ME906 and NS10s. I have no idea why, but it works best for me this way.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 22, 2021 8:28:15 GMT -6
I have had way more than a decade comparing my ITB vs OTB mixes. OTB always is much better to my ears. Wider stereo image / more punchy and powerful and more separation. Tubes / inductor EQ's / vintage console modules / class A gear / Bricasti and spring reverbs / tape delays / passive mix busses + tube preamp make up gain. All items together blow ITB away. I'm lucky that I have slowly collected an amazing array of the best of the best over 3 decades. And I LOVE my plug-ins too If I was only doing electronic / sample based music, then maybe I would change my mind and find ITB better? The great exodus to ITB mixing allows me to differentiate what I do compared to others - so it is a good business move too. Keeps me working.
I don't get the point, I make the experience that I simply dial in what I miss. The rest is getting used to a different workflow, a different way to get the goal.
Was it a PITA to find out how I get the low spectrum sit right, mixing ITB. Yes it was, and sometimes still is, but I am getting used to it, and then it's light-years easier compared to the racks and the desk.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 21, 2021 16:19:48 GMT -6
I've heard great mixes done entirely "In the Box" and of course, broken out to a console, or summing mixer. But at least for me, it comes down to one thing. And I feel, no one really directly compares the two. Never really hear of that on the forums. If the same mix done "In the Box" is broken out, The Out of Box version always sounds better... At least to me. It's the same mix, just run thru my hardware, instead of the Plugs, I try to match everything as best as I can. Personally I don't really care why it sounds better...it just does. My take.
Mixing ITB you can learn a lot using an AB plug in on the 2B. You need additional harmonics with saturation tools. It's a fact to me and there is a great plus too, with Kelvin for example I shape the sound.
You can have everything ITB and more.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 21, 2021 2:10:26 GMT -6
On the very topic of the thread, yes I used to be hybrid, and have moved 100% ITB. And I am 100% happy. Someday, on a lark, and with DIY funding, I would like to explode back out into hybrid again, just to do the thing. I think it might be fun to build a Serpent SB4000, stereo 3A, stereo 2A, hairball 1176, AML pultec, some CAPI EQ's, Sontec style EQ, and so on. But you see how this will require thousands of dollars and dozens of hours of bench time. I have the circuit boards for a few of these already, sitting in wait. I'd like to build one of those fancy "mastering desk" producer desks too. I think it would be hard not to feel like a real hardcore producer if I had all this gear I just mentioned, in an ergonomic setup. My current setup is efficient and I'm cranking out material. But it's always fun to throw the whole thing into the blender. Once every few years, or so. I'm not trying to play the psychology card here but "feeling like a pro producer" seems like a form of diluted paranoia. But it's not like I haven't been afflicted by it and hindsight is an ass. For example I've been extolling the virtues of the ISK 2B, someone said I should get a "better" mic but do you know what the ISK replaced? A Tele ELA M251E and the funny thing is in part I bought that mic due to comments like that. Nowadays I just giggle at the whole bias without context thing. Anyway I'm doing the opposite as in downsizing heavily, partially because the house renovations are bleeding me dry but also because I don't need nor want a hybrid setup and it's surprising what you'll keep in a crunch. My Shelford's, 2A's and 6176's will stay with me forever.. I personally can't do without some decent tracking HW, however I'm selling off the rest of my Neumann's (87AI / 89 / M149), Nu-Mu, Toobcore and external effects units but I'll keep my Schoeps MK4's / ISK's.. I might grab the odd piece from time to time but I'm done, I have no need to upgrade / change or add anything really and probably never will. My setup will never be a barrier to quality, I will though.. The only difference nowadays is I don't question it .. Unfortunately it makes discussions on a pro audio forum a bit dry though.. I see a future on pro forums talking about the core again. The music and sculpting the mix maybe even sending each other ch strip settings. Sharing presets etc. Over the time I have so many guitar amp sim presets... why not trading to see other AEs presets. Helps everybody and brings some fun...
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 19, 2021 16:02:30 GMT -6
Yes it's a lot of self-fulfilling prophecies like "it can't be done ITB". If you think like this, you will always find a reason why it sucks. But humans can turn around their thoughts. I just can repeat myself, sticking with the plug ins you like is a key factor for successful mixing ITB. In a HW studio, you don't change the hardware every few weeks. Some of the most classics are based on designs from the 50s. What helps me a lot. When I want to mimic a certain way of sound because I like it, I read about which tools were common in this time. Maybe I do more corrections working ITB, but the sound comes together in the end. I am just a little annoyed at the moment, I can't finish one mix because of main business trouble.
But it's ITB, at least I can work on a new idea, without getting in recall trouble. - BTW, yesterday a student showed me a Metal Band. Not my music but we listed over my monitors and I said wow this mix sounds fat like on a console. But the Band mixes fully ITB today. I was like OK.... the old saying that hard music needs hardware is no longer legit.
I resisted the idea that ITB could be as good for the longest time. I was invested, both monetarily and emotionally in believing that I somehow had a leg up on the competition by using mostly hardware, yet I kept hearing myself fall farther behind others. As we've said before, sometimes you just have to adopt the processes that others succeed with so that you can stay relevant and competitive. Switching wasn't quick, but the realization that I had been holding myself back was very quick. It's fundamentally the same, but also very different in application. It didn't take long for me to overcome the issues that I couldn't overcome with all my racks of hardware and mixer and now I'm doing the best work of my life. I could probably jump back on the mixer and apply what I've learned and it might be as good, but it would never be as fast or efficient as I am now.[/ True... Its super fast with using the 24 fader bank of the Raven its more funny too. I never mixed faster special the automation goes super smooth using the fine faders One more thing comes to my mind I am not a professional AE being able to go easily back is the only reason why I get good sounding mixes.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 19, 2021 14:53:27 GMT -6
From where I sit there isn't much debate at all. When it comes to tone? Hardware wins. TKO. No contest. I don't know a single person who mixes ITB and says that they prefer it over having a desk & outboard. Its always justified by either, for working professionals... recall & ease of use... and/or finances vs personal investment. Have a friend who's a "big deal" producer & mix guy. Won't name drop but you've probably heard of him and everyone including your mom absolutely knows at least a few of the artists he's worked with. Yet he also continues to work with indie artists & anyone who can find him if he digs the music. He primarily mixes ITB these days. At least for the self financed indie projects. All UAD all the time. Sold most of his personal hardware... Why? Because he got divorced. That won't come up in interviews... like if Sound on Sound or Pensado get their mitts on him. But get him alone over a couple beers? When he gets a real band with a real budget? They go to a real studio and spread that thing out across a real desk because there's time allotted to getting those results. All that said? Past a certain point of experience... if someone really knows their way around ITB vs OTB isn't going to make a lot of difference between "this sucks" and "this rocks" - it comes down to sitting in the pilots seat and making decisions. And at that point you can crash the plane and have a giant fireball or put it down gently and walk away. I do, now. Honestly I find it very much the same. A/B wise it might sound different but I've learned that you just make changes and move on. I think that personally I made too much ado about nothing in this regard.
Yes it's a lot of self-fulfilling prophecies like "it can't be done ITB". If you think like this, you will always find a reason why it sucks.
But humans can turn around their thoughts. I just can repeat myself, sticking with the plug ins you like is a key factor for successful mixing ITB. In a HW studio, you don't change the hardware every few weeks. Some of the most classics are based on designs from the 50s.
What helps me a lot. When I want to mimic a certain way of sound because I like it, I read about which tools were common in this time. Maybe I do more corrections working ITB, but the sound comes together in the end.
I am just a little annoyed at the moment, I can't finish one mix because of main business trouble.
But it's ITB, at least I can work on a new idea, without getting in recall trouble.
-
BTW, yesterday a student showed me a Metal Band. Not my music but we listed over my monitors and I said wow this mix sounds fat like on a console.
But the Band mixes fully ITB today. I was like OK.... the old saying that hard music needs hardware is no longer legit.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 18, 2021 11:31:46 GMT -6
Thx, I was just trying to get 2 monitors working on my m1 mini. Mission accomplished. If I wanted to run say slate drums on the old mbp, but in logic sessions in the new mini mini, how would I do that ?
Vienna Server or Audio Gridder. They also stream sound data, you also can run plug ins on the server machine. With Audio Gridder you also have the original plug in window in your M1 session, but the plug runs on your MBP. The setup is not too easy but once everything runs you will smile....
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 18, 2021 8:14:21 GMT -6
Yes, there are apps on the App store which can do this. Edit: Seems to be possible with a cable connection too.
(Google knows everything)
You may like a different - Idea:
But it's maybe an even better idea to use it as a server to run CPU intensive VSTis such as complex B3 Organ etc. Its donation ware.... audiogridder.com/
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 15, 2021 15:31:08 GMT -6
To my ear, there was unpleased distortion in the top end in both mixes. That's maybe the stupid double file compression by YT, which IMO cuts out information... I have the BX 4K which works fine for me when I want to go in that direction.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 9, 2021 14:58:52 GMT -6
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 9, 2021 14:45:27 GMT -6
Let me tell you why I've gone mostly ITB after decades of mostly OTB or hybrid.. Ease of use. Lets face it, everything is at you fingertips with a keyboard and mouse. Recall. I can just save versions as I go and if I get backed into a corner, I just open a different version or select an earlier history point. NOISE. One of the biggest things I always fought was noise. No matter how low the noise floor of your devices, they aggregate and build up. After all the compression and gain I got tired of hearing hiss only 30-40dB down. Power/heat. The room is cooler, my power bill is slightly less. I used to have to run the AC even in the winter when I had sessions.. Repair. I don't have to maintain and repair gear regularly like I used to. Costs.. One good plugin that I can use across a bunch of channels costs WAAAAY less than having actual hardware across a bunch of channels. Space. I had 3 full racks full of gear and another closet full of gear that I would trade in and out depending on what I was doing. Now I select it from a menu. Sound. I can't tell the difference between the hardware and software anymore and I don't care to A/B for tiny little differences that you can't hear in a mix. I put the plugs on the tracks and do my thing. Speed. I just reuse my templates and adjust whatever I need to adjust for the next session. I can reroute or change things in seconds instead of minutes or hours. But I still use some hardware on the inputs, but so far it's patched for the task at hand. Bass will always get a tube pre, EQ and 1176. vocals will always get neve preamp and 1176, etc. Ease of use - hrdware wins every time for me - now that I'm old I have a tremor in my right hand that makes any precision with a mouse impossible. Mice do not work for everybody. Knobs are also more precise. Repair - Yeah. Now you just throw it away when it breaks and you can't get parts.
I understand that many AE tend to use HW. But now in the Corona time I was like OK give it a try again. The problem with ITB is.
1. Nothing to touch with your fingers.
2. It is like with hardware, you need to know what the tools are able to do, and what not. It's a wise idea to limit the choice of tools in favorites folder and to stop to buy new plug ins everyday.
For me. I now know what the tools can do. For example, I require a nice smooth 60s Ballad Base Sound. Its now: JB-DI -> VPRE 562 -> Magnetide-TP-SIM -> VLA2A BRA -> Kelvin -> Sonnox Inflator for dialing in fatness to taste and pre comp dynamics. Sometimes I use some Side harmonics and or HW-Tube-Harmonics in parallel.
Just for the record - yes, it can be done. Is it the same workflow - no way...
Seen from the point of intuitive decisions, ITB is light years away. The only solution I have found to this is to work with a timer and I do 5 minutes breaks every 25-35 minutes.
Cheers A.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 9, 2021 10:57:13 GMT -6
Great post, mrholmes lately I've been enjoying the vibe of Black Rooster Audio VPRE-73HE, and the Fuse VPRE-2C as well as Arousor, UAD 1073, and I pulled out UAD Studer tape recently to make some pokey guitars sit down. I tried that KIT plugins Burier thing (it was free) and it just sounded like bad generic clipping.
Try the Kevin for Shaping and E Base sound. You can't do it better in the analog domain. The problem is IMO to set it like you like and to make a decision and to move on. Exactly the same as with real gear.
The cool thing is I can correct things with ease - a few days off help to be more objective again.
ITB is a god send, producing my own songs.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 9, 2021 9:54:46 GMT -6
Interesting I had this problem in polishing a dry mix last week. Sounded good but was not as open as my comparison mixes from the 70s …. Paul Third in YT showed that some hardware ads more harmonic content into the sides vs. other hardware. I did set up Elysia Saturator in Side mode on an aux strip… Voila the whole mix sounded nice. Interesting I may try that plug-in. Good sweetening saturation I find indispensable, I haven’t seemed to find too many that don’t make me feel it sounds a bit harsh in the digital domain, but I’m looking. I find boosting just isn’t the ticket sometimes and thickening the high-mids is really what I’m after a lot of the time. VSM 3 seems to add some nice harmonic content that when put at 10% or under sounds good and not too harsh
I have some analogue saturators which can sound pretty harsh IMO - so I roll off HF before it - done.... same ITB.
For me the favorites ITB are.
Klaghelm SDRR - Can sound pretty much as my SPL Saturator and I bet it's based on it. Kelvin is just superb when it comes to subtle tube sounds. Elysia Karacter is more modern but in subtle stages fine, there was no difference compared to the hardware.
I hope to have my M1 soon the freebie G Sat Plus sounded a lot better on the mix bus than the SSL Fusion Hardware... it also uses side harmonics. It was one of those who let your mouth stay open for a while, and no we do not folded ourselves, we level matched as good as it gets and used BLIND AB software. Three people prefer the plug in.
That is how bad digital is today. IMO the main problem is that our brain is not made for interfacing with screens. I try to set space by constant breaks for this issue, and it helps.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 8, 2021 18:48:36 GMT -6
The biggest thing I hear analog doing that I haven’t been able to do nearly as well with digital is making dry flat sounds come alive, while tapering off the resonant low end in a musical way. Interesting I had this problem in polishing a dry mix last week. Sounded good but was not as open as my comparison mixes from the 70s …. Paul Third in YT showed that some hardware ads more harmonic content into the sides vs. other hardware. I did set up Elysia Saturator in Side mode on an aux strip… Voila the whole mix sounded nice.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 8, 2021 11:05:48 GMT -6
Saw this yesterday, interesting layout.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 5, 2021 18:22:20 GMT -6
Liked the post too dan . Just yesterday I tested a compressor with LH and to my ears this thing sounds amazing clean and grabbed the transient and clamped it down. I had an old bundle by TB and this thing was just 15 bucks for me... The SC EQ idea is very handy, I can set the compressor up as Desser only clamping down the SS sounds and leaving the rest untouched.... www.toneboosters.com/tb_compressor_v4.htmlI only have the EQ from Toneboosters, but it's fantastic... makes me want to look deeper... these don't get mentioned a lot, the compressor looks nice! He is the opposite of Ray. He stays most often on the modern clean approach. His old compressor, version 3 was already dope. His de esser was one of the best ever, it took the Ss as well as the too strong Ttt sounds. The EQ has extremely low artifacts....
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 5, 2021 16:19:59 GMT -6
Liked the post too dan . Just yesterday I tested a compressor with LH and to my ears this thing sounds amazing clean and grabbed the transient and clamped it down. I had an old bundle by TB and this thing was just 15 bucks for me... The SC EQ idea is very handy, I can set the compressor up as Desser only clamping down the SS sounds and leaving the rest untouched.... www.toneboosters.com/tb_compressor_v4.html
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 3, 2021 17:03:25 GMT -6
Taking care for the family is always priority Nr. 1
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 2, 2021 13:11:50 GMT -6
Nice to hear good things about Rays work.
The last two sells I bought preamps, the VPRE-376 and the VPRE-562A.
The 376 is a gift from God. I am a bit on a retro 70s sound thing... V-PRE 376 has this midrange forward thing, taming the edges a little, muffling the low end in a good way. I have zero doubts that mixing ITB is real fun NOW.
PS: And yeah the compressors. I like them all for certain tasks, the LA4 can sound BIG on vocals....
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Post by mrholmes on Oct 31, 2021 7:41:59 GMT -6
Anyone else has this.
When playing a pickup bar on the snare, XLN drums spits out phasing like stupid. As soon the whole drums start to play, the issue is gone, snare back in phase.
Makes the impression it has something to do with firing up the first samples.
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Post by mrholmes on Oct 27, 2021 13:30:13 GMT -6
Looking off the road, you can find a few smaller dev. Doing great saturation tools. Or just doing that preamp color you love .... it's insane what they can do in plug in today.
So True ! about 15 years ago I used to say plugins will never do anything like the great tube compression of my hardware - now you can get close enough. Same with plate reverbs / transformer saturation / amp simms etc. As all of these great devs continue to push the designs, we are in for a great future (But I still mix hybrid through vintage hardware - but now I use plug-ins and hardware > they talk to each other )
I mixed a cover song last week, it's a fact that there is only one piece of hardware involved. Meanwhile, I don't care anymore, if it sounds good, it is good. Who cares which tools were used.... they care if the song touched them...
See BE a star was born on a bedroom laptop.... that's the new Rock and Roll.
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