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Post by svart on Jun 4, 2019 17:43:43 GMT -6
All I know is I got a Mac Mini and upgraded the RAM to 32GB myself - for half the price of what Apple quoted me for in their store. It took me 15min to do and I can see how people wouldn't be comfortable pulling brand new machines apart to do it. This is a good point. Likely the best course of action will be to buy as much processor as you can afford. Then buy everything else yourself. Im an Nvidia guy myself so would do RTX cards. Add RAM as you want and HD space as you want. THAT is the beauty of a MODULAR MAC PRO! Thank god its back. I heard/read somewhere that Nvidia drivers can cause audio glitches and issues with bus latency on high track counts or high throughput. Dunno if it's true or not though. |
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Post by veggieryan on Jun 4, 2019 17:50:29 GMT -6
I'm a professional who relies on a Hackintosh for daily work. The build guides for Hackintoshes are so specific now its become really easy to build and get a fully stable system. My current X299/7820x system is comparable to the new base model of the Mac Pro and it was about 1/3 the price over a year ago. It's much faster and as stable as my 2017 Macbook Pro 15 while having no fan noise since I can mount it in a quiet rack or in another room as needed. This is the main reason an iMac or laptop is not appealing to me as I want the fan noise and the EMF fields of the computer far away from me. I guess Apple went Xeon to appeal to the high end but for audio work it doesn't make much sense to spend the extra money for a Xeon system as far as I see it. For audio you want to get the fastest single core speed you can and then get as many cores as you can. I don't even see the advantage to a Xeon system for video work. AFAIK the only time you need a Xeon is for scientific research where you can't tolerate errors from the RAM/CPU. Maybe there is something I don't understand about Xeon that makes it a better choice for AV work. It's nice to see a Mac Pro back in the mix for heavy video pro's but I see the Hackintoshes only getting more popular for audio for the majority of people who need a tower or rack mount computer until Apple finally drops intel and makes their own CPU's.
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80hz
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Post by 80hz on Jun 4, 2019 19:09:06 GMT -6
If $18,000 of a top priced Mac is just for RAM, I fail to see how PC's are going to be so much cheaper. Isn't RAM to feed them going to cost the same? 1.5 TB of ram costs a lot no matter what platform you are on! But the real question is who needs that much RAM? Practically no one, and certainly no one doing strictly audio.
PC's are cheaper because you can tailor the level of components to your needs. Like as an audio guy doing pretty large productions on my PC (built brand new in November 2018) I have a video card that cost me $100 because all I need it to do is power a 50" TV and a 27" monitor. So I went for one that is passively cooled, cheap but reliable and has like 2GB of onboard ram. Runs ProTools perfectly. Apple forces you to buy a single premium tier video card even if the only thing that video card is doing is rendering your plugin GUIs - which certainly dont require a $900 video card.
Also PC's you can source great components that go on a major sale. I have a 1TB NVMe SSD (Samsung EVO Pro) that already outperforms the stock SSD shipping in the new Mac Pros in terms of read/write speeds.
For the price apple is charging, the components should at least outperform what you can buy on Amazon for 1/4 the price! |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 4, 2019 20:51:46 GMT -6
Isn't the point that it has to be in 128 GB chunks to max out the memory since there are 12 memory slots? Hence the bizarre price? I'm not sure it's the point, but nobody really makes 128GB sticks and almost no programs can really page out 1.5TB of ram anyway, so it's almost just a vanity move to buy that much RAM. Using cheaper sticks is the way to go until 128GB sticks come down in price, which they'll surely do in a few years as more machines out there can utilize them. Even servers don't use 128GB sticks because it's hard to deal with that kind of density through DDR ports. It's much faster and more reliable to use smaller sticks in more slots. OSX has always run smoother on machines maxed out, even if it’s beyond the max spec. I know video and animation guys who would max it out and probably use far more than you would ever think. |
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Post by drbill on Jun 4, 2019 21:48:55 GMT -6
If $18,000 of a top priced Mac is just for RAM, I fail to see how PC's are going to be so much cheaper. Isn't RAM to feed them going to cost the same? 1.5 TB of ram costs a lot no matter what platform you are on! But the real question is who needs that much RAM? Practically no one, and certainly no one doing strictly audio.
PC's are cheaper because you can tailor the level of components to your needs. Like as an audio guy doing pretty large productions on my PC (built brand new in November 2018) I have a video card that cost me $100 because all I need it to do is power a 50" TV and a 27" monitor. So I went for one that is passively cooled, cheap but reliable and has like 2GB of onboard ram. Runs ProTools perfectly. Apple forces you to buy a single premium tier video card even if the only thing that video card is doing is rendering your plugin GUIs - which certainly dont require a $900 video card.
Also PC's you can source great components that go on a major sale. I have a 1TB NVMe SSD (Samsung EVO Pro) that already outperforms the stock SSD shipping in the new Mac Pros in terms of read/write speeds.
For the price apple is charging, the components should at least outperform what you can buy on Amazon for 1/4 the price! I totally get all that, but you completely missed my point. |
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Post by christopher on Jun 4, 2019 23:03:05 GMT -6
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Jun 5, 2019 1:18:08 GMT -6
This is a good point. Likely the best course of action will be to buy as much processor as you can afford. Then buy everything else yourself. Im an Nvidia guy myself so would do RTX cards. Add RAM as you want and HD space as you want. THAT is the beauty of a MODULAR MAC PRO! Thank god its back. I heard/read somewhere that Nvidia drivers can cause audio glitches and issues with bus latency on high track counts or high throughput. Dunno if it's true or not though. Nvidia stopped writing drivers for MacOS anyway. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Jun 5, 2019 7:25:31 GMT -6
I heard/read somewhere that Nvidia drivers can cause audio glitches and issues with bus latency on high track counts or high throughput. Dunno if it's true or not though. Nvidia stopped writing drivers for MacOS anyway. they say they haven’t. They say Apple won’t approve the drivers for use. Who knows. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 5, 2019 8:01:13 GMT -6
Nvidia stopped writing drivers for MacOS anyway. they say they haven’t. They say Apple won’t approve the drivers for use. Who knows. The politics of Apple and it’s relationship with 3rd party vendors make the UN look simple! |
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Post by donr on Jun 5, 2019 9:51:31 GMT -6
Maybe one reason the initial price is so high is because people will source their own upgrades and features outside Apple.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 5, 2019 11:58:34 GMT -6
Video production is where audio production was twenty years ago.
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Post by Guitar on Jun 5, 2019 12:29:10 GMT -6
Video production is where audio production was twenty years ago. It certainly is for me. I am nearly able to afford a camera/recording setup for video now that could be considered "professional." I think I'm going to sell my Peluso and go in for a camera and mobile audio rig. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 5, 2019 14:05:37 GMT -6
Video production is where audio production was twenty years ago. It certainly is for me. I am nearly able to afford a camera/recording setup for video now that could be considered "professional." I think I'm going to sell my Peluso and go in for a camera and mobile audio rig. I keep drooling over the Blackmagic Micro Cine camera. |
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Post by Guitar on Jun 5, 2019 15:05:49 GMT -6
It certainly is for me. I am nearly able to afford a camera/recording setup for video now that could be considered "professional." I think I'm going to sell my Peluso and go in for a camera and mobile audio rig. I keep drooling over the Blackmagic Micro Cine camera. They keep getting better and cheaper so quickly it's kind of crazy. |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Jun 5, 2019 15:21:54 GMT -6
Video production is where audio production was twenty years ago. It certainly is for me. I am nearly able to afford a camera/recording setup for video now that could be considered "professional." I think I'm going to sell my Peluso and go in for a camera and mobile audio rig. Check out the BeastGrip stuff as well. Plenty of phone-based options that easily get you pro results. Using their mount, DOF adapter, FilmICPro and an iPhone SE I get excellent results for music videos and such. Cost me around $200 or so total (already owned FCPX). May not be what you need, but worth checking out. |
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Post by Guitar on Jun 5, 2019 15:29:30 GMT -6
It certainly is for me. I am nearly able to afford a camera/recording setup for video now that could be considered "professional." I think I'm going to sell my Peluso and go in for a camera and mobile audio rig. Check out the BeastGrip stuff as well. Plenty of phone-based options that easily get you pro results. Using their mount, DOF adapter, FilmICPro and an iPhone SE I get excellent results for music videos and such. Cost me around $200 or so total (already owned FCPX). May not be what you need, but worth checking out. That's pretty cool. I had not seen those. I'm raking in all the info I can get right now, so thank you. |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Jun 5, 2019 15:36:47 GMT -6
Check out the BeastGrip stuff as well. Plenty of phone-based options that easily get you pro results. Using their mount, DOF adapter, FilmICPro and an iPhone SE I get excellent results for music videos and such. Cost me around $200 or so total (already owned FCPX). May not be what you need, but worth checking out. That's pretty cool. I had not seen those. I'm raking in all the info I can get right now, so thank you. NP! In that case, also check out Revolve Camera. They've got some really cool affordable stuff as well that's really good quality. Used some of their motorized stuff and their camera stand is a great value. BeastGrip I stumbled upon several years ago when it was a Kickstarter project. I was in the same boat - looking for an affordable way to do video. Good luck and hit me up if you need more info on how I put them to use! Not affiliated with either in any way. |
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80hz
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Post by 80hz on Jun 5, 2019 18:08:20 GMT -6
I totally get all that, but you completely missed my point. That's because svart did not [miss your point]. I echo his thoughts and was simply adding on... If $18,000 of a top priced Mac is just for RAM, I fail to see how PC's are going to be so much cheaper. Isn't RAM to feed them going to cost the same? Not sure what you mean. 32gb of ddr4 is about 100$, which would make 1.5TB about 4700$ without a bulk discount. |
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Post by drbill on Jun 5, 2019 18:21:34 GMT -6
I totally get all that, but you completely missed my point. That's because svart did not [miss your point]. I echo his thoughts and was simply adding on... Not sure what you mean. 32gb of ddr4 is about 100$, which would make 1.5TB about 4700$ without a bulk discount. Nope. Completely missed the point. Again. I guess I'm just a poor communicator..... |
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80hz
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Post by 80hz on Jun 5, 2019 18:35:40 GMT -6
I read your new reply before you changed it, And I see what you are saying in terms of thinking we are comparing Apple's to Oranges. But there's this...
The components used by Apple aren't in fact top tier specs/components. But apple might charge you $400 to add in 32gb of their designated RAM.
My whole point is that if you were to go buy 32gb of a different brand of RAM (to put in a PC build), You can buy products from the likes of G.Skill and Corsair that double the performance of the Apple RAM (in terms of speed, latency, etc.) and still spend less money on that 32gb stick.
So the issue is the markup they put on what they deem to be "proprietary" components.
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Post by drbill on Jun 5, 2019 18:48:59 GMT -6
I changed it because I don't want to start another internet feud. I could care less about this computer. I'll likely never even buy a used one.
However, my whole point was that you're ignoring that you can put the same RAM into a PC. Do that. Don't use a $100 RAM chips - use what Apple spec'd. Add up the prices. The PC's cost will ALSO be astronomical. It has to be. It's freaking $18k in aftermarket (not apple) RAM. Get mad at the RAM manufacturers, not Apple. I understand that there are ways to do it cheaper, maybe even better and cheaper. But again, that wasn't my point. If you can't see that, I can only assume you just don't want to see it.
To clarify and I'm done with this - my point was that if you are going to slam Apple for a computer that costs $40k with $18k+ of ram and make an example of how much cheaper PC's are, put the same RAM in your PC and let me know what it's price is - not spec some substandard cheaper product and claim victory of pricing. My guess is though that the PC isn't so cheap anymore. Is it? Still no doubt cheaper than the COMPARABLE Apple product.
And as a sidenote, why the **** would we ever need 1.5TB or RAM? Maybe Apple has a crystal ball that can see a decade down the road, but at this point, I'm giddy over the top happy with 64G. I could conceivably see using 128G, but beyond that....not in my lifetime.
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Post by veggieryan on Jun 5, 2019 19:17:44 GMT -6
I think the confusion stems from people not knowing that Xeon based systems are much more expensive due to the differences in the architecture. This new Mac Pro is actually a great deal if you tried to build the exact same system as a PC because of the build quality and the overall cooling design is very elegant and reliable. Additionally for a video editor its a no brainer due to the "afterburner" hardware support for 3 streams of real-time 8k video which no PC currently offers outside of Red which I still think is not as powerful or desirable.
For audio I just don't think Xeon makes sense at all since you would be better of spending the extra money on a higher core speed chip like an i7-6950X or an i9-7900X since realtime audio tasks need that higher clock speed on a single core for tasks like audio unit effects and synths. The resulting system as a PC or hackintosh is much cheaper with better audio performance than a Xeon AFAIK but I could be wrong.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 5, 2019 19:25:37 GMT -6
. And as a sidenote, why the **** would we ever need 1.5TB or RAM? Maybe Apple has a crystal ball that can see a decade down the road, but at this point, I'm giddy over the top happy with 64G. I could conceivably see using 128G, but beyond that....not in my lifetime. For audio yeah, but maybe for AR and/or VR production? Not to mention creating or running AI algorithms...just speculating here but maybe under those circumstances it makes sense. |
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80hz
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Post by 80hz on Jun 5, 2019 19:25:46 GMT -6
I think the confusion stems from people not knowing that Xeon based systems are much more expensive due to the differences in the architecture. This new Mac Pro is actually a great deal if you tried to build the exact same system as a PC because of the build quality and the overall cooling design is very elegant and reliable. Additionally for a video editor its a no brainer due to the "afterburner" hardware support for 3 streams of real-time 8k video which no PC currently offers outside of Red which I still think is not as powerful or desirable. For audio I just don't think Xeon makes sense at all since you would be better of spending the extra money on a higher core speed chip like an i7-6950X or an i9-7900X since realtime audio tasks need that higher clock speed on a single core for tasks like audio unit effects and synths. The resulting system as a PC or hackintosh is much cheaper with better audio performance than a Xeon AFAIK but I could be wrong. Man that's great! The ultimate summary!
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Post by Quint on Jun 5, 2019 19:33:42 GMT -6
Bill,
I "think" a few people are essentially saying "Yes, the SAME ram in a PC would cost as much as it does in the Mac, but why would I put that same exact ram in a PC when I can get better ram than what Apple specs and also for cheaper?"
So I understand what you're saying about apples to apples comparisons, but I would agree with others here that even with unlimited money, I still wouldn't necessarily put that same ram in my PC if I could get better ram for cheaper.
Maybe I'm misreading what others are saying, but that is my interpretation of the basic argument.
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