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Post by Blackdawg on Jun 3, 2019 20:15:28 GMT -6
Now that you mention Hackintosh, I thought they had announced their plans to move away from Intel chips and manufacture their own in the plant that does all the Apple mobile chips. That was supposed to mean the end of Hackintosh since you wouldn't be able to buy that off the shelf part. Maybe they new this crowd might not be ready for that change yet. I've never worked on a Xeon processor so I'm not sure how much you feel from a processing standpoint. I'm always impressed when studios say they still use an old cheese grater. Xeon is just Intel's pro server processors. Very nice and reliable. Also ultra pricey. After watching the promo video, it seems that these are really targeted at pro video people more than anything. As I work with video a lot this is true. In fact I've just convinced our video editor to change to PC because for 6 grand I build a massive PC with pro grade gpu for very fast video encoding. 4k is hard to work with without major horse power. Either way, this Mac is still super overpriced. Though no Mobo out there run 1.5tb of ram or that much expansion right now. So has that going for it.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 3, 2019 20:22:58 GMT -6
Insanely overpriced! I just built a brand new hackintosh with OS Mojave with specs that beat this base model, quadruple the hard drive size and double the RAM for less than half the price of this Mac. No idea where Apple is getting their hardware prices from, but all their silicon must be lined with gold plating! The worst part is other than the chassis and maybe the mobo - most of the internals are components you can source yourself! And if not there is probably a Mac OS equivalent you can look up. without opening it up I don’t fully know exactly what components they have gone with, but if using the Xeon platform still, then it’s intel chips and likely intel motherboards. Easy to recreate an even more powerful machine at a fraction of the cost. I still think to avoid the hassles of the Bermuda ‘Update’ Triangle (looking at you protools), a windows machine is far more stable and better value in this day and age. But sourcing the same or similar components for a hack is very doable and you would save 60% on the cost of these rediculously overpriced machines!! Here’s the deal, though. I don’t have room in my old head to now become a effing computer builder. I already have to juggle 435 jobs as a songwriter/producer/mixer/guitarist/pianist/ one and one and on. I just want something that I can go buy and it freaking works. Well.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 3, 2019 20:34:07 GMT -6
Insanely overpriced! I just built a brand new hackintosh with OS Mojave with specs that beat this base model, quadruple the hard drive size and double the RAM for less than half the price of this Mac. No idea where Apple is getting their hardware prices from, but all their silicon must be lined with gold plating! The worst part is other than the chassis and maybe the mobo - most of the internals are components you can source yourself! And if not there is probably a Mac OS equivalent you can look up. without opening it up I don’t fully know exactly what components they have gone with, but if using the Xeon platform still, then it’s intel chips and likely intel motherboards. Easy to recreate an even more powerful machine at a fraction of the cost. I still think to avoid the hassles of the Bermuda ‘Update’ Triangle (looking at you protools), a windows machine is far more stable and better value in this day and age. But sourcing the same or similar components for a hack is very doable and you would save 60% on the cost of these rediculously overpriced machines!! Here’s the deal, though. I don’t have room in my old head to now become a effing computer builder. I already have to juggle 435 jobs as a songwriter/producer/mixer/guitarist/pianist/ one and one and on. I just want something that I can go buy and it freaking works. Well. Well there’s that😎
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Post by christopher on Jun 3, 2019 20:37:18 GMT -6
Exactly.. and they know it.. same reason we go in debt on cars when we could have a paid off one for $4k and $2k in servicing.
I’ve been seriously thinking about building PCs for audio and selling them, but I would hate to sell someone a PC that isn’t as fun and wonderful to use and reliable as Macs. Because I know it’s something that they are eventually going to have really complicated issues with, and then I’d be in perpetual customer service hell.
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80hz
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Post by 80hz on Jun 3, 2019 21:44:48 GMT -6
Here’s the deal, though. I don’t have room in my old head to now become a effing computer builder. I already have to juggle 435 jobs as a songwriter/producer/mixer/guitarist/pianist/ one and one and on. I just want something that I can go buy and it freaking works. Well. I hear you, that's where my skillset may come in handy. I build pro audio PCs and Hacks. Working with a business partner as we speak to get our online store rockin' as this turned from favours for friends to a more steady flow of side income. But our goal is to make this process simple for the end user. We won't be advertising hackintosh's of course but we will build for those interested on a case by case basis with our main focus on pro-audio PCs that crush Mac's in performance and reliability.
However our main focus is to appeal to the music producers out there who want a rock solid machine, high performance and no fuss! And honestly, I will stand behind Windows 10 as a reliable machine equal to or greater than Mac any day of the week, I've been using one as my primary platform for 10 years and run Thunderbolt interfaces, UAD, etc with zero issue. Gone are the days of Windows being unreliable for creatives or unstable. Unfortunately though like many things in life, people kinda still hold onto the old view of something even well after its changed (see: 'the highschool slut') lol. Makes no sense to be forced to pay for computer components that we in the audio industry don't require (ie. $1000 video cards, or 128GB of ram). Some may require the higher ram counts based on genre etc. though of course!
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jun 3, 2019 22:22:16 GMT -6
I’ll eventually have one. I dig that they are going to have a rack version.
And no I don’t want a windows machine, and no I don’t want a hackintosh. I don’t want to deal with learning the crap that goes into dealing with them. I don’t want to switch to Cubase or to Reaper. I don’t want to have to try and make a phone call for help at 11pm when something craps out and the machine isn’t seeing my interfaces because of some stupid madi driver issue (I’ve seen this all go down on real money Sessions...)
I want to take a computer, throw an HDX card in it, my hard drive of choice, however much ram I need, and for it to work no questions asked for 10 years. And that is a Mac Pro.
$600 a year for a piece of gear that I make my living from really isn’t that big of a deal. Hell, I know dudes that own $6,000 les Paul’s and play them in their basements twice a week.
Really not that crazy a price for what you get. And the convenience is a GIANT factor for me.
Don’t think I’d pony up for that monitor though 😬
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80hz
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Post by 80hz on Jun 3, 2019 22:41:25 GMT -6
I’ll eventually have one. I dig that they are going to have a rack version. And no I don’t want a windows machine, and no I don’t want a hackintosh. I don’t want to deal with learning the crap that goes into dealing with them. I don’t want to switch to Cubase or to Reaper. I don’t want to have to try and make a phone call for help at 11pm when something craps out and the machine isn’t seeing my interfaces because of some stupid madi driver issue (I’ve seen this all go down on real money Sessions...) I want to take a computer, throw an HDX card in it, my hard drive of choice, however much ram I need, and for it to work no questions asked for 10 years. And that is a Mac Pro. $600 a year for a piece of gear that I make my living from really isn’t that big of a deal. Hell, I know dudes that own $6,000 les Paul’s and play them in their basements twice a week. Really not that crazy a price for what you get. And the convenience is a GIANT factor for me. Don’t think I’d pony up for that monitor though 😬 To each their own of course! Hackintosh's are invariably a fuss. But everything you wrote in your 4th last line is (in my experience) a windows machine of the last 6 years. Of course most die hard mac guys haven't spent any time on them, and continue to call them a fuss. Also Windows machines run ProTools without issue. Not sure if you were implying you would be forced to switch DAWs? I recently built a windows machine for an award winning producer/mix engineer who I'll leave unnamed, and has worked with some of the most iconic bands of the last 20 years. It was 1/4 the cost of a similarly spec'd mac pro, and actually outperforms that mac. He is the type who probably never would have switched off Apple if he didn't give it 30 minutes with Windows first. Full ProTools Native HD rig with UAD etc integrated. Rock solid! It's certainly worth making an educated decision about, regardless of how you break down the cost over years.
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Post by javamad on Jun 4, 2019 1:21:42 GMT -6
I’ll eventually have one. I dig that they are going to have a rack version. And no I don’t want a windows machine, and no I don’t want a hackintosh. I don’t want to deal with learning the crap that goes into dealing with them. I don’t want to switch to Cubase or to Reaper. I don’t want to have to try and make a phone call for help at 11pm when something craps out and the machine isn’t seeing my interfaces because of some stupid madi driver issue (I’ve seen this all go down on real money Sessions...) I want to take a computer, throw an HDX card in it, my hard drive of choice, however much ram I need, and for it to work no questions asked for 10 years. And that is a Mac Pro. $600 a year for a piece of gear that I make my living from really isn’t that big of a deal. Hell, I know dudes that own $6,000 les Paul’s and play them in their basements twice a week. Really not that crazy a price for what you get. And the convenience is a GIANT factor for me. Don’t think I’d pony up for that monitor though 😬 +1 here... from someone using a mid 2012 MacBook Pro as the studio computer, with Logic. I haven’t had a single problem with it although it is getting a bit long in the tooth at this stage I am recording 20+ channels of audio at 48k regularly. No issues. I do have 2 Apollos that I monitor direct from and I don’t really use virtual instruments that much. I reckon the basic model with a 1tb disk would work out well over several years, say a 5 year plan and if you want to get into VI’s or find the need to add, well now you can. Definitely keen to see info on the rackmount one ...
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Post by pope on Jun 4, 2019 5:01:17 GMT -6
I’ll eventually have one. I dig that they are going to have a rack version. And no I don’t want a windows machine, and no I don’t want a hackintosh. I don’t want to deal with learning the crap that goes into dealing with them. I don’t want to switch to Cubase or to Reaper. I don’t want to have to try and make a phone call for help at 11pm when something craps out and the machine isn’t seeing my interfaces because of some stupid madi driver issue (I’ve seen this all go down on real money Sessions...) I want to take a computer, throw an HDX card in it, my hard drive of choice, however much ram I need, and for it to work no questions asked for 10 years. And that is a Mac Pro. $600 a year for a piece of gear that I make my living from really isn’t that big of a deal. Hell, I know dudes that own $6,000 les Paul’s and play them in their basements twice a week. Really not that crazy a price for what you get. And the convenience is a GIANT factor for me. Don’t think I’d pony up for that monitor though 😬 You should bear in mind that the "$600 a year" system is very basic and it'll probably be useless in 10 years. You should probably almost double that if you're hoping to have a reasonable system in 10 years. Personally after being a mac user for nearly 20 years, I'm done with apple. I'd rather spend my money elsewhere. No more money to yappies from me. www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2019/6/3/18651208/apple-mac-pro-how-much-top-spec-price-estimate-ballpark
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Post by Ward on Jun 4, 2019 5:50:01 GMT -6
That might very well be the perception… Amongst us… But it has been stated many times over, that avid makes money off audio more than video, and Avenue it is still driving the video world, which is what Apple is targeting here! Since virtually everyone who works in the office is it Apple is a musician, maybe we need to reach out to those people at Apple and tell them how much we really want a great machine at a decent price?
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Post by jdc on Jun 4, 2019 6:17:40 GMT -6
with how much work they put into the screen it struck me as odd that Apple has never developed professional grade audio monitors
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Post by svart on Jun 4, 2019 6:19:43 GMT -6
Insanely overpriced! I just built a brand new hackintosh with OS Mojave with specs that beat this base model, quadruple the hard drive size and double the RAM for less than half the price of this Mac. No idea where Apple is getting their hardware prices from, but all their silicon must be lined with gold plating! The worst part is other than the chassis and maybe the mobo - most of the internals are components you can source yourself! And if not there is probably a Mac OS equivalent you can look up. without opening it up I don’t fully know exactly what components they have gone with, but if using the Xeon platform still, then it’s intel chips and likely intel motherboards. Easy to recreate an even more powerful machine at a fraction of the cost. I still think to avoid the hassles of the Bermuda ‘Update’ Triangle (looking at you protools), a windows machine is far more stable and better value in this day and age. But sourcing the same or similar components for a hack is very doable and you would save 60% on the cost of these rediculously overpriced machines!! Here’s the deal, though. I don’t have room in my old head to now become a effing computer builder. I already have to juggle 435 jobs as a songwriter/producer/mixer/guitarist/pianist/ one and one and on. I just want something that I can go buy and it freaking works. Well. And any number of computers will fit the bill just fine.. But they know that marketing is not just specs (because lets face it, the specs aren't much different from a gaming computer), but sex. You think they make them look like "cheese graters" because it serves a technical purpose? No, they make it look like that to make it stand out, to make people talk about it. When folks say "did you see the new mac, it looks like a cheese grater", folks will go see it. Hell, I did. They sell these at such high prices because the consumer unconsciously links price with implicit performance and they know there will always be folks who defend these prices (see this thread) even though plenty of much lower cost options exist. I mean, even you just said "I just want something that I can go buy and it freaking works. well." even though you don't actually know this machine will work "well" for the price, but you've been convinced that it will simply due to the brand/model and price.
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Post by svart on Jun 4, 2019 6:24:47 GMT -6
with how much work they put into the screen it struck me as odd that Apple has never developed professional grade audio monitors Most apple screens are just AOC and LG gaming panels. Not a ton of work to develop.
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Post by svart on Jun 4, 2019 6:30:22 GMT -6
I’ll eventually have one. I dig that they are going to have a rack version. And no I don’t want a windows machine, and no I don’t want a hackintosh. I don’t want to deal with learning the crap that goes into dealing with them. I don’t want to switch to Cubase or to Reaper. I don’t want to have to try and make a phone call for help at 11pm when something craps out and the machine isn’t seeing my interfaces because of some stupid madi driver issue (I’ve seen this all go down on real money Sessions...) I want to take a computer, throw an HDX card in it, my hard drive of choice, however much ram I need, and for it to work no questions asked for 10 years. And that is a Mac Pro. $600 a year for a piece of gear that I make my living from really isn’t that big of a deal. Hell, I know dudes that own $6,000 les Paul’s and play them in their basements twice a week. Really not that crazy a price for what you get. And the convenience is a GIANT factor for me. Don’t think I’d pony up for that monitor though 😬 Well, as a person who has a 600$ (total) PC running for about 7 years now (also my 2nd 600$ machine in 17 years) running Reaper and MADI without a single failure, BSOD(Kernel panic for the MAC users..) running DSP cards, my choice of HDD, as much RAM as I need.. I'm pretty sure it'll last at least 10 years.
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Post by svart on Jun 4, 2019 6:37:15 GMT -6
Exactly.. and they know it.. same reason we go in debt on cars when we could have a paid off one for $4k and $2k in servicing. I’ve been seriously thinking about building PCs for audio and selling them, but I would hate to sell someone a PC that isn’t as fun and wonderful to use and reliable as Macs. Because I know it’s something that they are eventually going to have really complicated issues with, and then I’d be in perpetual customer service hell. Don't do it. You can absolutely build any PC as a MAC equal in all ways, hardware and software. MACs just use the same hardware as PCs now and there is no magic about their hardware at all. Software wise, windows has been plenty reliable as long as you do the MAC thing and lock down everything so that the user can't change anything that can cause a problem. The main human problem is that if you sell one to a MAC person, any simple issue will be retorted with "but my mac doesn't do that" and you'll never convince them otherwise and it'll perpetuate the myth of MAC superiority further. The other problem is that if you sell to a PC novice and any simple issue arises, you'll get the "but I paid $$$ for this and it's unreliable" even though it's almost always the user's fault. The last problem is that if you sell to PC power users and they get in there mucking about in the guts of the hardware and software and something goes wrong, they'll almost always try to blame your work instead of theirs.
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Post by svart on Jun 4, 2019 6:45:47 GMT -6
Now that you mention Hackintosh, I thought they had announced their plans to move away from Intel chips and manufacture their own in the plant that does all the Apple mobile chips. That was supposed to mean the end of Hackintosh since you wouldn't be able to buy that off the shelf part. Maybe they new this crowd might not be ready for that change yet. I've never worked on a Xeon processor so I'm not sure how much you feel from a processing standpoint. I'm always impressed when studios say they still use an old cheese grater. Xeon is just Intel's pro server processors. Very nice and reliable. Also ultra pricey. After watching the promo video, it seems that these are really targeted at pro video people more than anything. As I work with video a lot this is true. In fact I've just convinced our video editor to change to PC because for 6 grand I build a massive PC with pro grade gpu for very fast video encoding. 4k is hard to work with without major horse power. Either way, this Mac is still super overpriced. Though no Mobo out there run 1.5tb of ram or that much expansion right now. So has that going for it. Just put an RTX2080ti in my gaming/video editing machine running DaVinci Resolve. Lightning fast with 4K video. There's plenty of server/XEON motherboards that handle 1.5TB and beyond, mostly Supermicro brand, which is also the brand that Apple OEM's for their motherboards.
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Post by Quint on Jun 4, 2019 7:04:07 GMT -6
Here’s the deal, though. I don’t have room in my old head to now become a effing computer builder. I already have to juggle 435 jobs as a songwriter/producer/mixer/guitarist/pianist/ one and one and on. I just want something that I can go buy and it freaking works. Well. And any number of computers will fit the bill just fine.. But they know that marketing is not just specs (because lets face it, the specs aren't much different from a gaming computer), but sex. You think they make them look like "cheese graters" because it serves a technical purpose? No, they make it look like that to make it stand out, to make people talk about it. When folks say "did you see the new mac, it looks like a cheese grater", folks will go see it. Hell, I did. They sell these at such high prices because the consumer unconsciously links price with implicit performance and they know there will always be folks who defend these prices (see this thread) even though plenty of much lower cost options exist. I mean, even you just said "I just want something that I can go buy and it freaking works. well." even though you don't actually know this machine will work "well" for the price, but you've been convinced that it will simply due to the brand/model and price. Exactly
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 4, 2019 7:05:15 GMT -6
That might very well be the perception… Amongst us… But it has been stated many times over, that avid makes money off audio more than video, and Avenue it is still driving the video world, which is what Apple is targeting here! Since virtually everyone who works in the office is it Apple is a musician, maybe we need to reach out to those people at Apple and tell them how much we really want a great machine at a decent price? The last time I had this discussion with somebody from Apple it was pretty apparent they understood the pro video market was where the real money was and is today let me explain. While the studio market has gone from a brick and mortar business to home, video and film still has this absolutely huge corporate foot print. Your streaming services today through $$ around like the record labels in the 70’s as do all the biggies. Post houses still thrive. The election cycle cash infusions to local stations keeps growing and growing. More and more companies have in house video production, security and law enforcement have grown exponentially. We are are viewed as niche that supports this business at this point not much of a market anymore, yes every kid has garage band but he’s not spending $$$. Video guys for the most part like buying turnkey systems and understand the importance of manufacturer support Audio guys have always been more “ I know a guy who...”. The video guys hated the clutter of the trash can and all the ancillary boxes needed, I’m sure the a listers who they are trying to woo to their streaming service production staffs had their ear.
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Post by jdc on Jun 4, 2019 8:15:48 GMT -6
with how much work they put into the screen it struck me as odd that Apple has never developed professional grade audio monitors Most apple screens are just AOC and LG gaming panels. Not a ton of work to develop. It seems like they may have done some actual work for this one (I could be wrong) Their new "XDR" 6k screen (the contrast is almost 1000 times better than Dell's current 8k equivalent monitor) is a reference monitor for $5k which is a steal for production houses and media companies that need them. The industry standard Sony reference monitor is $40k a piece right now (i work for a major TV network and there are too many to count in our building). For any regular person I think that sort of price is outlandish, but so is the performance for what project studios are doing. I think the general theme echoed here that the video world still throws money around makes a lot of sense.
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Post by svart on Jun 4, 2019 8:41:02 GMT -6
Most apple screens are just AOC and LG gaming panels. Not a ton of work to develop. It seems like they may have done some actual work for this one (I could be wrong) Their new "XDR" 6k screen (the contrast is almost 1000 times better than Dell's current 8k equivalent monitor) is a reference monitor for $5k which is a steal for production houses and media companies that need them. The industry standard Sony reference monitor is $40k a piece right now (i work for a major TV network and there are too many to count in our building). For any regular person I think that sort of price is outlandish, but so is the performance for what project studios are doing. I think the general theme echoed here that the video world still throws money around makes a lot of sense. I think in the coming days we'll start to see breakdowns and such and find out who makes the panels for Apple. Apple doesn't actually own any manufacturing sites, they contract manufacture everything. They typically front costs for other companies to build manufacturing sites for apple products, then as the company brings them online, they pay apple back the capital with profits and by only handling apple products for a specific timeframe. It's how apple controls a lot of the logistical space behind manufacturing overseas and keeps prices higher on their competitors, by causing scarcity in materials and manufacturing lines. Oh and apparently the 5K for the monitor doesn't come with a stand.. The stand is another 1K.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jun 4, 2019 9:43:19 GMT -6
with how much work they put into the screen it struck me as odd that Apple has never developed professional grade audio monitors Well...they used to sell super high end stereo gear. The best stereo I've ever heard was a late 60s era Macintosh system. Tube amps, EQ, the works, and of course speakers. with how much work they put into the screen it struck me as odd that Apple has never developed professional grade audio monitors Most apple screens are just AOC and LG gaming panels. Not a ton of work to develop. This is their first fully developed screen actually. Xeon is just Intel's pro server processors. Very nice and reliable. Also ultra pricey. As I work with video a lot this is true. In fact I've just convinced our video editor to change to PC because for 6 grand I build a massive PC with pro grade gpu for very fast video encoding. 4k is hard to work with without major horse power. Either way, this Mac is still super overpriced. Though no Mobo out there run 1.5tb of ram or that much expansion right now. So has that going for it. Just put an RTX2080ti in my gaming/video editing machine running DaVinci Resolve. Lightning fast with 4K video. There's plenty of server/XEON motherboards that handle 1.5TB and beyond, mostly Supermicro brand, which is also the brand that Apple OEM's for their motherboards. Yeah Im sure. Im looking at using a Quadro RTX 4000 or 6000. Im interested to seen how the new Ryzen's do. They should be very impressive. interesting about the server boards, didn't know that. Have to check it out.
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 4, 2019 10:20:52 GMT -6
I am still happy with my old refurbished desktop macs. They run a very long time now, they are still powerful, more than I need. At entry 6K and maxed out @50k - fool me once ....
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Post by jdc on Jun 4, 2019 10:30:27 GMT -6
Yea my 2013 Macbook Pro is still running strong, and the best it ever has on High Sierra 10.13.
That was $3k six years ago, which so far comes to $500 a year.
Unless a fully maxed out Mac Pro is going to last me 100 years it doesn't quite seem worth it...
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Post by drbill on Jun 4, 2019 11:06:09 GMT -6
If $18,000 of a top priced Mac is just for RAM, I fail to see how PC's are going to be so much cheaper. Isn't RAM to feed them going to cost the same?
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Post by m03 on Jun 4, 2019 11:09:47 GMT -6
with how much work they put into the screen it struck me as odd that Apple has never developed professional grade audio monitors Well...they used to sell super high end stereo gear. The best stereo I've ever heard was a late 60s era Macintosh system. Tube amps, EQ, the works, and of course speakers. Not sure if serious. Macintosh != McIntosh.
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