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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 16, 2019 11:15:12 GMT -6
Turned it off altogether. Aye, this was the first thing I did. I read about a lot of RTT issues with the Apollo's but noticed it was pretty high up (as in good) on a dedicated latency testing thread, then noticed it was due to the input delay. I’m not really understanding what you’re saying. Is RTT Return trip latency? Also, what do you mean it was pretty good with RTT but it was due to input latency?
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 16, 2019 11:20:53 GMT -6
This has honestly really made me rethink the Apollo. Pro Tools is the format I use and receive 99% of the time. Right now it feels like I’m getting a “it’s not our fault” from both sides...well, even if it’s not UA’s fault, they should be extremely concerned about it and proactively trying to figure out why this is happening. Last night, recording from my Kemper with no IDC on, the recording was placed around 60 samples late. Every time. Seems like this has happened before and a reboot fixed it. But I can’t work with something that’s unreliable like that. And if I’m dealing with something like a vocal, I won’t always know or be able to figure out where placement should be. I can’t do a loop back test every time I turn the damn thing on. Even some testing on different drivers and PT versions would be helpful. At least let me know what I can load up to not have this issue anymore.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2019 12:17:50 GMT -6
Aye, this was the first thing I did. I read about a lot of RTT issues with the Apollo's but noticed it was pretty high up (as in good) on a dedicated latency testing thread, then noticed it was due to the input delay. I’m not really understanding what you’re saying. Is RTT Return trip latency? Also, what do you mean it was pretty good with RTT but it was due to input latency? Sorry just a typo it should be RTL / Round trip latency, with console input latency on the RTL for the Apollo is pretty poor (dependant on settings) but if you switch it off (like you have) in terms of RTL measurements it's up there in terms of performance. You will always have latency due to sample buffers / consoles OH but the DAW should compensate. The way Pro Tools handles automatic delay compensation outside of TDM / HDX is abysmal. Samplitude / Logic / Reaper etc. automatically offset for recording sample delay and they offset delay for Aux busses etc., Pro Tools? Nah.! I first noticed record delay and aux buss phase issues in PT9 w/ an Avid Mbox Pro, seems it was no better in 12 and I've moved to Logic. There's ways around it (manual offset) etc. but personally I'd rather set and forget.
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Post by guitfiddler on Mar 16, 2019 12:46:06 GMT -6
Is anyone experiencing this in Studio One 4? Just thought I would throw that out there. I always had an issue with Protools native. I like the software, and the visual is great. I like to use it, but I always struggled with the performance, latency, although stable.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 16, 2019 12:52:21 GMT -6
I'm still glad I use Logic.
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Post by bigbone on Mar 16, 2019 12:52:32 GMT -6
This has honestly really made me rethink the Apollo. Pro Tools is the format I use and receive 99% of the time. Right now it feels like I’m getting a “it’s not our fault” from both sides...well, even if it’s not UA’s fault, they should be extremely concerned about it and proactively trying to figure out why this is happening. Last night, recording from my Kemper with no IDC on, the recording was placed around 60 samples late. Every time. Seems like this has happened before and a reboot fixed it. But I can’t work with something that’s unreliable like that. And if I’m dealing with something like a vocal, I won’t always know or be able to figure out where placement should be. I can’t do a loop back test every time I turn the damn thing on. Even some testing on different drivers and PT versions would be helpful. At least let me know what I can load up to not have this issue anymore. It's only me, i love the UA Apollo.but i need something reliable as far as sending tracks and overdubing.Latency and delay comp is a huge dealbraker for me, I won't learn a new DAW as 95% of the peoples i work with use ProTool. We got so many choice today as far as interface so choose the gear that will both work and get along together that you are comfy with. for me it's Apogee and ProTool.Sorry for the rest. !!!!!
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Post by dankin on Mar 16, 2019 13:33:43 GMT -6
This has honestly really made me rethink the Apollo. Pro Tools is the format I use and receive 99% of the time. Right now it feels like I’m getting a “it’s not our fault” from both sides...well, even if it’s not UA’s fault, they should be extremely concerned about it and proactively trying to figure out why this is happening. Last night, recording from my Kemper with no IDC on, the recording was placed around 60 samples late. Every time. Seems like this has happened before and a reboot fixed it. But I can’t work with something that’s unreliable like that. And if I’m dealing with something like a vocal, I won’t always know or be able to figure out where placement should be. I can’t do a loop back test every time I turn the damn thing on. Even some testing on different drivers and PT versions would be helpful. At least let me know what I can load up to not have this issue anymore. Agreed!
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 16, 2019 17:14:53 GMT -6
This has honestly really made me rethink the Apollo. Pro Tools is the format I use and receive 99% of the time. Right now it feels like I’m getting a “it’s not our fault” from both sides...well, even if it’s not UA’s fault, they should be extremely concerned about it and proactively trying to figure out why this is happening. Last night, recording from my Kemper with no IDC on, the recording was placed around 60 samples late. Every time. Seems like this has happened before and a reboot fixed it. But I can’t work with something that’s unreliable like that. And if I’m dealing with something like a vocal, I won’t always know or be able to figure out where placement should be. I can’t do a loop back test every time I turn the damn thing on. Even some testing on different drivers and PT versions would be helpful. At least let me know what I can load up to not have this issue anymore. It's only me, i love the UA Apollo.but i need something reliable as far as sending tracks and overdubing.Latency and delay comp is a huge dealbraker for me, I won't learn a new DAW as 95% of the peoples i work with use ProTool. We got so many choice today as far as interface so choose the gear that will both work and get along together that you are comfy with. for me it's Apogee and ProTool.Sorry for the rest. !!!!! Well, it very well could be completely a Pro Tools Native thing. That’s why I want people to do a loop back test to see if it’s all third party interfaces.
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Post by indiehouse on Mar 16, 2019 19:12:14 GMT -6
It's only me, i love the UA Apollo.but i need something reliable as far as sending tracks and overdubing.Latency and delay comp is a huge dealbraker for me, I won't learn a new DAW as 95% of the peoples i work with use ProTool. We got so many choice today as far as interface so choose the gear that will both work and get along together that you are comfy with. for me it's Apogee and ProTool.Sorry for the rest. !!!!! Well, it very well could be completely a Pro Tools Native thing. That’s why I want people to do a loop back test to see if it’s all third party interfaces. I’ll do one with my Motu setup. Can someone explain how?
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Post by indiehouse on Mar 16, 2019 19:39:35 GMT -6
Well, it very well could be completely a Pro Tools Native thing. That’s why I want people to do a loop back test to see if it’s all third party interfaces. I’ll do one with my Motu setup. Can someone explain how? Oh wait. Is that where I just route a click out and back in through DA/AD?
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Post by indiehouse on Mar 16, 2019 19:40:46 GMT -6
Is that the same thing as what you all are talking about, though? Aren’t you talking about a new signal being recorded late against pre-existing tracks?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2019 21:24:05 GMT -6
Is that the same thing as what you all are talking about, though? Aren’t you talking about a new signal being recorded late against pre-existing tracks? You record something (from 0) send it out and back in again then measure the sample offset. The starting position for both audio files on separate tracks should read 0, if it's off then it's not being compensated for. Just out of curiosity why do people believe this is an interface issue? Interfaces do not account automatically adjust for delay offset, they just deliver processed audio to your DAW. This is 100% a DAW issue.! It almost seems like confusion is being created due to UA's console / mixer input delay compensation, the whole point of that is so if you're recording multiple instruments with with or without plugins it keeps them in time with each other (phase aligned). It will still deliver them to your DAW delayed like every interface would, although with the overhead it would arrive later (of course). This is a pretty cool guide too with plenty of suggestions: help.uaudio.com/hc/en-us/articles/115003167103-Why-am-I-Getting-Latency-in-my-DAW-Sessions-P.S I usually have issues with everything but the Apollo has been fine so far.!
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 16, 2019 22:46:42 GMT -6
Did anybody take the time to actually watch the video I posted?
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 16, 2019 22:55:03 GMT -6
But at this point I don’t know wtf is going on. There seem to be a couple of issues...Issue 1: I THOUGHT it was just an issue where it was being recorded late into the daw when Console’s IDC was on. That seemed to be repeatable. Issue 2: Now, intermittently, I’m getting late recording even when the IDC is off. And it’s kind of unrepeatable. I’ve even gotten it where it’s being placed ahead.
I’m wondering if it stems from me having put the computer in “sleep.” I hadn’t really been doing that, but have been lazy for a The last few weeks...I am pretty sure this happened months ago several times and I just rebooted and everything seemed kosher. Wondering if it stemmed from that.
Issue 3: on top of that, now I’m realizing that there’s an input latency for third party interfaces that Pro Tools Native doesn’t compensate for. Had no idea.
Regardless, now I’m a little psyched out.
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Post by drsax on Mar 17, 2019 9:16:21 GMT -6
But at this point I don’t know wtf is going on. There seem to be a couple of issues...Issue 1: I THOUGHT it was just an issue where it was being recorded late into the daw when Console’s IDC was on. That seemed to be repeatable. Issue 2: Now, intermittently, I’m getting late recording even when the IDC is off. And it’s kind of unrepeatable. I’ve even gotten it where it’s being placed ahead. I’m wondering if it stems from me having put the computer in “sleep.” I hadn’t really been doing that, but have been lazy for a The last few weeks...I am pretty sure this happened months ago several times and I just rebooted and everything seemed kosher. Wondering if it stemmed from that. Issue 3: on top of that, now I’m realizing that there’s an input latency for third party interfaces that Pro Tools Native doesn’t compensate for. Had no idea. Regardless, now I’m a little psyched out. Pro Tools support has been terrible for me over the years. They have almost always told me a given issue is not with their software. I grew weary of paying for bad support and being left to figure it out on my own anyway. A full blown Hd system is the only type of PT rig I would use for recording or interfacing with Outboard while mixing. Despite PT being the DAW that most of my clients use, I insist on working in a stable and full featured DAW that handles timing and latency properly. I have never had any issues with Cubase in this regard. And projects I did 15 years ago still open on the current version. The extra time it takes to render WAV files from zero in ProTools, and load them in Cubase, even if I have to clean up crossfades, is easily made up once in Cubase because the workflow is just better for me. I own Pro Tools Native and use it when I have to, but I don’t like workarounds, and I don’t like the input latency. It has always given me fits. Avid really needs to fix this latency issue.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2019 9:39:20 GMT -6
But at this point I don’t know wtf is going on. There seem to be a couple of issues...Issue 1: I THOUGHT it was just an issue where it was being recorded late into the daw when Console’s IDC was on. That seemed to be repeatable. Issue 2: Now, intermittently, I’m getting late recording even when the IDC is off. And it’s kind of unrepeatable. I’ve even gotten it where it’s being placed ahead. I’m wondering if it stems from me having put the computer in “sleep.” I hadn’t really been doing that, but have been lazy for a The last few weeks...I am pretty sure this happened months ago several times and I just rebooted and everything seemed kosher. Wondering if it stemmed from that. Issue 3: on top of that, now I’m realizing that there’s an input latency for third party interfaces that Pro Tools Native doesn’t compensate for. Had no idea. Regardless, now I’m a little psyched out. I did have a look, yes putting your machine in sleep mode can have odd effects. My Apogee Duet would crackle and do all sorts of odd stuff when I took the comp outta sleep. On issue 3, it's been like that since I can remember (even with their own Avid Mbox). Although I manually aligned things, compensated for Aux busses etc. back in the day it wasn't only pro tools that had these issues, today most DAW's have gotten so much better you generally don't have to worry (although from time to time I still check).
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Post by drsax on Mar 17, 2019 9:43:36 GMT -6
But at this point I don’t know wtf is going on. There seem to be a couple of issues...Issue 1: I THOUGHT it was just an issue where it was being recorded late into the daw when Console’s IDC was on. That seemed to be repeatable. Issue 2: Now, intermittently, I’m getting late recording even when the IDC is off. And it’s kind of unrepeatable. I’ve even gotten it where it’s being placed ahead. I’m wondering if it stems from me having put the computer in “sleep.” I hadn’t really been doing that, but have been lazy for a The last few weeks...I am pretty sure this happened months ago several times and I just rebooted and everything seemed kosher. Wondering if it stemmed from that. Issue 3: on top of that, now I’m realizing that there’s an input latency for third party interfaces that Pro Tools Native doesn’t compensate for. Had no idea. Regardless, now I’m a little psyched out. I did have a look, yes putting your machine in sleep mode can have odd effects. My Apogee Duet would crackle and do all sorts of odd stuff when I took the comp outta sleep. On issue 3, it's been like that since I can remember (even with their own Avid Mbox). Although I manually aligned things, compensated for Aux busses etc. back in the day it wasn't only pro tools that had these issues, today most DAW's have gotten so much better you generally don't have to worry (although from time to time I still check). I have found the same about allowing a computer to go to sleep. I’ve had that cause many issues. I disable that feature and all power saving features on my studio computer
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Post by indiehouse on Mar 17, 2019 19:27:00 GMT -6
But at this point I don’t know wtf is going on. There seem to be a couple of issues...Issue 1: I THOUGHT it was just an issue where it was being recorded late into the daw when Console’s IDC was on. That seemed to be repeatable. Issue 2: Now, intermittently, I’m getting late recording even when the IDC is off. And it’s kind of unrepeatable. I’ve even gotten it where it’s being placed ahead. I’m wondering if it stems from me having put the computer in “sleep.” I hadn’t really been doing that, but have been lazy for a The last few weeks...I am pretty sure this happened months ago several times and I just rebooted and everything seemed kosher. Wondering if it stemmed from that. Issue 3: on top of that, now I’m realizing that there’s an input latency for third party interfaces that Pro Tools Native doesn’t compensate for. Had no idea. Regardless, now I’m a little psyched out. Holy hell! 50 samples late for me here on a Motu via lightning. You say that's Pro Tools not compensating for 3rd party interfaces? So now what, I have to nudge EVERY SING TRACK I record back 50 samples now? Or learn a new DAW? 50 samples sounds like a lot. Is it?
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 17, 2019 20:29:40 GMT -6
Yeah. It’s not good.
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Post by damoongo on Mar 17, 2019 22:34:59 GMT -6
But at this point I don’t know wtf is going on. There seem to be a couple of issues...Issue 1: I THOUGHT it was just an issue where it was being recorded late into the daw when Console’s IDC was on. That seemed to be repeatable. Issue 2: Now, intermittently, I’m getting late recording even when the IDC is off. And it’s kind of unrepeatable. I’ve even gotten it where it’s being placed ahead. I’m wondering if it stems from me having put the computer in “sleep.” I hadn’t really been doing that, but have been lazy for a The last few weeks...I am pretty sure this happened months ago several times and I just rebooted and everything seemed kosher. Wondering if it stemmed from that. Issue 3: on top of that, now I’m realizing that there’s an input latency for third party interfaces that Pro Tools Native doesn’t compensate for. Had no idea. Regardless, now I’m a little psyched out. Holy hell! 50 samples late for me here on a Motu via lightning. You say that's Pro Tools not compensating for 3rd party interfaces? So now what, I have to nudge EVERY SING TRACK I record back 50 samples now? Or learn a new DAW? 50 samples sounds like a lot. Is it? 50 samples at 48khz (not sure what rate you measured at) is about 1ms. That's approximately the same time as it takes for the A/D D/A in those CAT5 headphone cue systems most studios use... So the musicians on the floor are already about 1ms behind the click or the recorded music they are overdubbing to. Adding another 1ms to the lateness doesn't help.
But... one millisecond is about the time it takes sound to travel about one foot. So if you are one foot from your monitors, you are hearing the sound about a millisecond after the speaker generates the sound. So if you are tracking guitar (for example) in the control room, sitting 5 feet from the monitors, you are already 5ms delayed from playback. That's the scale we are working on. So it's up to you to decide if it matters. To ME, it matters. Especially if you are working hybrid and sending stuff out to hardware and back in again. Even more important when phase coherency needs to be maintained.
Oh Avid... it's 2019. Other DAW's have solved this literally decades ago...
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Post by indiehouse on Mar 18, 2019 4:44:17 GMT -6
Holy hell! 50 samples late for me here on a Motu via lightning. You say that's Pro Tools not compensating for 3rd party interfaces? So now what, I have to nudge EVERY SING TRACK I record back 50 samples now? Or learn a new DAW? 50 samples sounds like a lot. Is it? 50 samples at 48khz (not sure what rate you measured at) is about 1ms. That's approximately the same time as it takes for the A/D D/A in those CAT5 headphone cue systems most studios use... So the musicians on the floor are already about 1ms behind the click or the recorded music they are overdubbing to. Adding another 1ms to the lateness doesn't help.
But... one millisecond is about the time it takes sound to travel about one foot. So if you are one foot from your monitors, you are hearing the sound about a millisecond after the speaker generates the sound. So if you are tracking guitar (for example) in the control room, sitting 5 feet from the monitors, you are already 5ms delayed from playback. That's the scale we are working on. So it's up to you to decide if it matters. To ME, it matters. Especially if you are working hybrid and sending stuff out to hardware and back in again. Even more important when phase coherency needs to be maintained.
Oh Avid... it's 2019. Other DAW's have solved this literally decades ago...
My session was 96k. I patched out from channel 1 to in from channel 1 through probably about 8 foot of cable, including tt patch cable. This is a pretty serious problem. AND apparently it’s always been a problem? So all the stuff I’ve recorded since I bought my first Apollo MKI has had the timing all screwed up? Why am I not hearing about this? Seems like guys would be shouting from the rafters about how PT screws up their timing? Is it like a secret or something?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2019 6:40:03 GMT -6
Seems like I'm not the only one with these issues after all. After I noticed the recording delay on my system over a year ago, I was led to believe by Avid support that this was an isolated error in conjunction with my specific computer model. I have been debating with Avid support for over a year now and couldn't use PT eversince. Right now they have told me, that there would be some improvements with the next PT update. But I've heard that before... Switched to Reaper and haven't had any issues like this since then. Very frustrating.
Since finding out, I have been wondering how many recordings I screwed up in the past due to these issues.
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Post by brenta on Mar 18, 2019 7:58:33 GMT -6
No wonder I'm always bitching at musicians for dragging behind the beat.
So are you guys using PT HD Native or PT Vanilla? I would think HD would correct for this, although in my opinion it's unacceptable for any DAW to have this flaw.
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Post by brenta on Mar 18, 2019 7:59:52 GMT -6
This has honestly really made me rethink the Apollo. Pro Tools is the format I use and receive 99% of the time. Right now it feels like I’m getting a “it’s not our fault” from both sides...well, even if it’s not UA’s fault, they should be extremely concerned about it and proactively trying to figure out why this is happening. Last night, recording from my Kemper with no IDC on, the recording was placed around 60 samples late. Every time. Seems like this has happened before and a reboot fixed it. But I can’t work with something that’s unreliable like that. And if I’m dealing with something like a vocal, I won’t always know or be able to figure out where placement should be. I can’t do a loop back test every time I turn the damn thing on. Even some testing on different drivers and PT versions would be helpful. At least let me know what I can load up to not have this issue anymore. It's only me, i love the UA Apollo.but i need something reliable as far as sending tracks and overdubing.Latency and delay comp is a huge dealbraker for me, I won't learn a new DAW as 95% of the peoples i work with use ProTool. We got so many choice today as far as interface so choose the gear that will both work and get along together that you are comfy with. for me it's Apogee and ProTool.Sorry for the rest. !!!!! So have you actually measured and found that your Apogee interface is not doing this?
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Post by bigbone on Mar 18, 2019 8:06:13 GMT -6
Did not measured it,but when i heard and zoom at the waves form.all is aligning with the track that are already there on the project.
The only HW that i use are my ext pre's as i mix ITB,not hybrid. Could be something else if you are hybrid with a lot's of HW.
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