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Post by indiehouse on Mar 18, 2019 9:27:42 GMT -6
Does Cubase do this?
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 18, 2019 9:41:11 GMT -6
I need to get in and really check - like for the converter latency - but when I checked for the problem with UA IDC being on, Cubase didn’t have the same problem. I believe popmann mentioned there’s a universal offset in Cubase you can set for converter latency. Btw - popmann mentioned a while back about only using analog connections for headphone cue systems and not adat- because of the latency. Well, I could never tell the difference honestly, and not having enough analog puts I’m kindve forced to use adat for my hearback system. Here’s a question - if I bought a cheap interface just to have headphone outs, would I still have the same latency if it’s connected via adat? And am I completely being irrational about this? A simple formula I read about calculating milliseconds to samples was basically take three zeros off of your sample rate (is that right?) so at 44,100, One millisecond = 44 samples. Am I freaking out over nothing? And another thing - am I playing late because I’m hearing things late in my headphones - and it’s not really a PT issue at all?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2019 9:46:38 GMT -6
brentaSome compensation features are HDX only (if others who read the manual are correct), there's multiple threads about this stuff on DUC and GS. indiehouseSome times it's not as noticeable as one would think, for example the UA console has a 32 sample delay with their aux's and whilst it's very noticeable when parallel compressing if you add a bit of reverb any potential phase issues kinda tuck into the background. Also in some circumstances it can be a plus adding a "chorus" type effect that may fatten things up a little, I swear down this is the reason why some say "pro tools sounds better". Unfortunately dependant on the size of the project / amount of plugins it can also completely wreck a song, I first noticed it in PT9. I did a 5 song demo and ultimately I thought I just sucked at mixing ITB but later on realised that my recordings were out of time (as drivers had incorrectly interpreted additional delay offset) and aux busses weren't accounted for). Don't get me wrong, there's some limitations with aux's etc. in all DAW's for e.g. Logic will delay everything if there's heavy plugins placed on an aux so you can end up recording out of time, you have to enter low latency mode or remove compensation from "all" to channels only (usually when doing overdubs). Also some drivers are rubbish.! Although PT's implementation could be far better.! What I did to get around it: > Use a track align plugin. > Use duplicate tracks instead of aux busses and sends (of course in PT HD Native and PT Native only (HDX is fine). > Never use a master fader unless bounced down and re-imported (again native only). > Check things often.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 18, 2019 9:49:48 GMT -6
brentaSome compensation features are HDX only (if others who read the manual are correct), there's multiple threads about this stuff on DUC and GS. indiehouseSome times it's not as noticeable as one would think, for example the UA console has a 32 sample delay with their aux's and whilst it's very noticeable when parallel compressing if you add a bit of reverb any potential phase issues kinda tuck into the background. Also in some circumstances it can be a plus adding a "chorus" type effect that may fatten things up a little, I swear down this is the reason why some say "pro tools sounds better". Unfortunately dependant on the size of the project / amount of plugins it can also completely wreck a song, I first noticed it in PT9. I did a 5 song demo and ultimately I thought I just sucked at mixing ITB but later on realised that my recordings were out of time (as drivers had incorrectly interpreted additional delay offset) and aux busses weren't accounted for). Don't get me wrong, there's some limitations with aux's etc. in all DAW's for e.g. Logic will delay everything if there's heavy plugins placed on an aux so you can end up recording out of time, you have to enter low latency mode or remove compensation from "all" to channels only (usually when doing overdubs). Also some drivers are rubbish.! Although PT's implementation could be far better.! What I did to get around it: > Use a track align plugin. > Use duplicate tracks instead of aux busses and sends (of course in PT HD Native and PT Native only (HDX is fine). > Never use a master fader unless bounced down and re-imported (again native only). > Check things often. Good Lord. That’s depressing.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 18, 2019 9:54:13 GMT -6
Wonder if this explains why there have been times I could swear Cubase sounded better?
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Post by brenta on Mar 18, 2019 10:04:18 GMT -6
brenta Some compensation features are HDX only (if others who read the manual are correct), there's multiple threads about this stuff on DUC and GS. Yep, that's why I'm wondering which version people are using that are measuring this. John Kenn and Indie, I may have missed it but are you guys using PT HD or PT Vanilla?
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Post by popmann on Mar 18, 2019 11:13:21 GMT -6
I don't remember exactly the routing of the HEarback....
Yes--hearing something at the wrong time in the headphones would make the performance off....but, a loopback test confirms it's a native ProTools issue. Though to see how far it REALLY is off--you need the ANALOG loop to go out to that Hearback you actually listen to an back in. It might be worse off as a combination of that making it a little off AND PTLE not compensating properly making it ALSO a little more off.
I will also reiterate that compensation for IO has a dependency: plug in compensation. PDC HAS to be SPOT on....sample accurate....to have a HOPE of IO compensation working. THAT is (likely) why Cubase "sounds better" than many other native mixing apps--because years ago they stopped trusting developers and started internally pinging through plug ins on initiation. But, it's important to understand that you CAN have accurate PDC and have the IO not properly compensate for a lot of reasons, but if the PDC is off, the IO CAN'T functionally work.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 18, 2019 11:16:45 GMT -6
Vanilla. I believe this is the crux of the issue. “Buy our hardware and you won’t have these problems...” I would venture to guess the reason it’s not exactly we’ll know is that all third party manufacturers don’t want you to know this either. Sigh. I’m really not trying to stir shit up, but it’s kind of a big deal...and one that - if fixed could result in better recordings, experiences and SALES by third party manus. But maybe several milliseconds among friends just isn’t that big a deal.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 18, 2019 11:20:52 GMT -6
I don't remember exactly the routing of the HEarback.... Yes--hearing something at the wrong time in the headphones would make the performance off....but, a loopback test confirms it's a native ProTools issue. Though to see how far it REALLY is off--you need the ANALOG loop to go out to that Hearback you actually listen to an back in. It might be worse off as a combination of that making it a little off AND PTLE not compensating properly making it ALSO a little more off. I will also reiterate that compensation for IO has a dependency: plug in compensation. PDC HAS to be SPOT on....sample accurate....to have a HOPE of IO compensation working. THAT is (likely) why Cubase "sounds better" than many other native mixing apps--because years ago they stopped trusting developers and started internally pinging through plug ins on initiation. But, it's important to understand that you CAN have accurate PDC and have the IO not properly compensate for a lot of reasons, but if the PDC is off, the IO CAN'T functionally work. So maybe I should measure my converter latency through Cubase since we know it’s not freaky-deaky...Just a click, out an analog path back in to the converter right?
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Post by brenta on Mar 18, 2019 11:32:09 GMT -6
Vanilla. I believe this is the crux of the issue. “Buy our hardware and you won’t have these problems...” I would venture to guess the reason it’s not exactly we’ll know is that all third party manufacturers don’t want you to know this either. Sigh. I’m really not trying to stir shit up, but it’s kind of a big deal...and one that - if fixed could result in better recordings, experiences and SALES by third party manus. But maybe several milliseconds among friends just isn’t that big a deal. Exactly. When Avid hears about something like this, instead of urgently trying to fix the issue, they use it as yet another selling point for why we all need to upgrade to PT HD. Unfortunately for them, instead of this being the last straw that will finally make me go to HD, this may be the last straw that will finally make me go to Reaper or Studio One. I'm not really tempted to pay $86 a month just to have my recordings line up where they are supposed to be. That said, I am curious if people using PT HD Native are seeing this same issue. Based on the wisdom of the internet they shouldn't be, but it seems like nobody really knows for sure if this is happening until they actually test for it.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 18, 2019 11:37:17 GMT -6
Yeah - I might just migrate over to Cubase permanently. I'm pretty "superstitious" with gear...if that's the right word. Not saying that's rational, it's just like - if I get something in my head, I can't get it out. All I'm going to be thinking about now is "I wonder whether this is delayed" every time I record something...whether or not it's in my audible hearing ability or not lol.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2019 11:44:03 GMT -6
Vanilla. I believe this is the crux of the issue. “Buy our hardware and you won’t have these problems...” I would venture to guess the reason it’s not exactly we’ll know is that all third party manufacturers don’t want you to know this either. Sigh. I’m really not trying to stir shit up, but it’s kind of a big deal...and one that - if fixed could result in better recordings, experiences and SALES by third party manus. But maybe several milliseconds among friends just isn’t that big a deal. Exactly. When Avid hears about something like this, instead of urgently trying to fix the issue, they use it as yet another selling point for why we all need to upgrade to PT HD. Unfortunately for them, instead of this being the last straw that will finally make me go to HD, this may be the last straw that will finally make me go to Reaper or Studio One. I'm not really tempted to pay $86 a month just to have my recordings line up where they are supposed to be. That said, I am curious if people using PT HD Native are seeing this same issue. Based on the wisdom of the internet they shouldn't be, but it seems like nobody really knows for sure if this is happening until they actually test for it. This has been well known on the internet since?? The obvious issue is they don't make the information forthright, it's on like page 113 of the PT native manual. Also included one of the <insert how many issues here> with Aux busses. In short Avid want you to buy into HDX (the full blown system inc. HW), they don't get a cut from third party manufacturers neither will many pay for their "prosumer" version when there's cheaper (and often better) options out there. C'mon which other DAW dev limits track amounts in 2019??! www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/554026-pt9-lacks-quot-recording-delay-compensation-quot-3rd-party-interfaces.htmlduc.avid.com/showthread.php?t=297973
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 18, 2019 13:01:25 GMT -6
I just (through a lot of trial and error) figured out my converter latency is about 30 samples at 48 in Cubase. You can offset that in Studio/Studio Setup/VST Audio System/Adjust Record Latency. popmann - am I doing this the way you're doing it? Gonna try it that way for a bit to see if things feel kosher.
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Post by indiehouse on Mar 18, 2019 13:06:59 GMT -6
brenta Some compensation features are HDX only (if others who read the manual are correct), there's multiple threads about this stuff on DUC and GS. Yep, that's why I'm wondering which version people are using that are measuring this. John Kenn and Indie, I may have missed it but are you guys using PT HD or PT Vanilla? I think I'm on 12.4 native. Not HD.
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Post by indiehouse on Mar 18, 2019 13:12:37 GMT -6
I just (through a lot of trial and error) figured out my converter latency is about 30 samples at 48 in Cubase. You can offset that in Studio/Studio Setup/VST Audio System/Adjust Record Latency. popmann - am I doing this the way you're doing it? Gonna try it that way for a bit to see if things feel kosher. Let me know what you find out. This may be the thing that motivates me to switch to Cubase. Damnit. I don't wanna learn a new DAW. Major buzz kill. But then again, I don't want to be a computer programmer or mathematician with Pro Tools when all I wanna do is be musically creative. Those two parts of the brain do not mesh well with me. It's one or the other. At this point in my life, I just want my shit to work right. Is it a pain to migrate sessions from Pro Tools to Cubase?
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 18, 2019 13:52:52 GMT -6
Nah - you highlight all the files and "opt-shift-3" (I think that's standard and not something custom I did...It's "consolidate files". Then you sort by date in finder and drag all of those into Cubase.
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Post by popmann on Mar 18, 2019 14:05:37 GMT -6
I just (through a lot of trial and error) figured out my converter latency is about 30 samples at 48 in Cubase. You can offset that in Studio/Studio Setup/VST Audio System/Adjust Record Latency. popmann - am I doing this the way you're doing it? Gonna try it that way for a bit to see if things feel kosher. Yes. But set it and test with the click as you described above--make sure you have the direction right. Meaning...you can set it to 30 samples or NEGATIVE 30 samples...I always seem to get it wrong despite having a 50/50 shot. once it tests solid (meaning once you have that offset right it should just record lined up without you doing ANYTHING to it), it should maintain that for all buffers AT 48khz. IME. Change sample rates, you'll need to remeasure because all the various conversions might change. However, I'm going to point out that IF you use the headphones on the APollo...and using the Apollo ADC....this SHOULDN'T be needed. I point that out simply because there are a lot of people only using the interface. Now--it doesn't mean that it WILL...but, it SHOULD. As soon as you use a third party converter (including shipping it out to a Hearback system) somewhere in "the loop" you need to measure it. As to migrating Protools sessions to Cubase...I mean, I don't know the level of expertise involved. If you've never used anything but one DAW (any DAW)--it will be a big bitch. But, it's certainly easier to go that direction--Avid's file consolidation to Cubase is much faster/straightforward than Cubase's idiotic batch audio mixdown exporting. But, like I've told people using "I don't care what DAW"--you need to save/archive tracks as non proprietary linear PCM files with timestamps. Most people with home studios DON'T...but, you need to--and the process of doing that is basically the same--it's going to allow you to pull those tracks into ANYTHING...
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Post by popmann on Mar 18, 2019 14:06:39 GMT -6
I see JK got the actual shortcut...now, if only there was a track level shortcut like that to gets stuff out of Cubase!! Ha.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2019 14:25:03 GMT -6
Nah - you highlight all the files and "opt-shift-3" (I think that's standard and not something custom I did...It's "consolidate files". Then you sort by date in finder and drag all of those into Cubase. Aye that's exactly how I export from pro tools, I tried AMF / OMF and it was messy. I really do feel people's pain here, I was at my wit's end with this issue and the worst thing is many didn't understand it (like on that DUC thread) until the penny dropped. No wonder Avid are struggling, even just for customer relations reasons you'd think they'd try to make the product the best it can be (or at least keep up with others). I would highly recommend considering Logic, whilst it might take a bit of time to get up to speed with shortcuts it has to be the most comprehensive (professional) DAW's I've come across that still remains relatively simple to use (plus it's cheap). I actually chose logic due to popmann 's recommendations, things like Hermode tuning for strings was a big pro, their mixing environment didn't feel alien after decades of Pro Tools (unlike Studio one), it's feature complete with a lot of decent base plugins (even pitch correction), automation is a breeze etc. Can't fault it. P.S Oh and ADC works correctly .
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Post by hio on Mar 18, 2019 17:42:49 GMT -6
Amazing how many mastering engineers are using Reaper now. Best audio engine in the business by far. Reaper's download is 11 megabytes and Cubase is 21 GB. Who would have thunk!
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 18, 2019 17:51:48 GMT -6
Amazing how many mastering engineers are using Reaper now. Best audio engine in the business by far. Reaper's download is 11 megabytes and Cubase is 21 GB. Who would have thunk! i.imgur.com/UsMpjf9.gif
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Post by popmann on Mar 18, 2019 19:38:30 GMT -6
Amazing how many mastering engineers are using Reaper now. Best audio engine in the business by far. Reaper's download is 11 megabytes and Cubase is 21 GB. Who would have thunk! I'm curious what that means to you taken at face value. Mastering would demand less of an "audio engine" and particularly compensation (the subject at hand) than nearly any other scenario I can imagine. My Nuendo8 install is 1GB including 340mb of IRs for the reverb...and THEN there's another 20gb+ of soundware--instruments and loops and such you can install if it holds any value for you. FWIW.
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Post by hio on Mar 18, 2019 20:04:49 GMT -6
Yes, my comments had really nothing to do with each other, I was just stating some observations some of which is subjective but totally true. 😜
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2019 20:14:28 GMT -6
Yes, my comments had really nothing to do with each other, I was just stating some observations some of which is subjective but totally true. 😜 ?? Subjective definition: Influenced by or based on personal beliefs or feelings, rather than based on facts.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 18, 2019 21:50:29 GMT -6
The Reaper hype continues...11 MB. Not much of a program if that's the case.
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