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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 4, 2019 15:23:57 GMT -6
Wow do I feel like a dumbass (or maybe I feel a lot better). I swear for a while now, I've been thinking, "damn, my timing is terrible..." But today I was recording an acoustic part and I SWORE I was playing in time - yet I was like 2000 samples off the bar. I thought maybe my ADAT headphones were the issue or something. Started reading about delay comp in PT's and then I thought - maybe I'm hearing things delayed through Apollo Console. Sure enough, I had "Long" checked in the Input Delay Compensation section. I just became a dramatically better player. Holy crap. Had no idea. Less Audio quantizing.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 4, 2019 17:41:50 GMT -6
Well, ya know, Supertramp wrote “long way home”, only after they got their apollo: just sayin !  |
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Post by christopher on Mar 4, 2019 23:01:39 GMT -6
Wow do I feel like a dumbass (or maybe I feel a lot better). I swear for a while now, I've been thinking, "damn, my timing is terrible..." But today I was recording an acoustic part and I SWORE I was playing in time - yet I was like 2000 samples off the bar. I thought maybe my ADAT headphones were the issue or something. Started reading about delay comp in PT's and then I thought - maybe I'm hearing things delayed through Apollo Console. Sure enough, I had "Long" checked in the Input Delay Compensation section. I just became a dramatically better player. Holy crap. Had no idea. Less Audio quantizing. Thanks for admitting it! This is probably super common. Happened to me for a while (PTLE/not UAD). Finally I tracked a close friend and he swore the Protools was broken and wasn’t placing his performance on the down beat. I was skeptical and “knew” he just hadn’t practiced lol. Then he got really pissed after a take, so to prove to him how wrong he was I recorded his headphone feed along with his take. He was absolutely flawless, I was the idiot lol. Also I was a little bummed I didn’t think to verify the setup and delay compensation (I didn’t install/not my studio) |
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Post by peterhess on Mar 6, 2019 19:10:06 GMT -6
I did this recently too. I had a perplexed trombone player looking at me with a raised eyebrow.
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Post by hio on Mar 6, 2019 19:47:04 GMT -6
I wonder when JK re-records all his tunes whether there might be another hit in there.
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Post by indiehouse on Mar 6, 2019 20:03:15 GMT -6
Wow do I feel like a dumbass (or maybe I feel a lot better). I swear for a while now, I've been thinking, "damn, my timing is terrible..." But today I was recording an acoustic part and I SWORE I was playing in time - yet I was like 2000 samples off the bar. I thought maybe my ADAT headphones were the issue or something. Started reading about delay comp in PT's and then I thought - maybe I'm hearing things delayed through Apollo Console. Sure enough, I had "Long" checked in the Input Delay Compensation section. I just became a dramatically better player. Holy crap. Had no idea. Less Audio quantizing. Thanks for admitting it! This is probably super common. Happened to me for a while (PTLE/not UAD). Finally I tracked a close friend and he swore the Protools was broken and wasn’t placing his performance on the down beat. I was skeptical and “knew” he just hadn’t practiced lol. Then he got really pissed after a take, so to prove to him how wrong he was I recorded his headphone feed along with his take. He was absolutely flawless, I was the idiot lol. Also I was a little bummed I didn’t think to verify the setup and delay compensation (I didn’t install/not my studio) So, just for record/reference, what is the proper way to set delay compensation while tracking with ProTools? I direct monitor through Motu’s mixer, so I don’t think that need to worry about that, correct? |
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Post by christopher on Mar 6, 2019 20:23:37 GMT -6
Easy way to test/verify is to record the monitor output as a loop back (line in) along with your performance. See if your monitor feed is lining up to the source,... also see if your performance is lining up to the monitor feed. vst synths recording MIDI notes can be sloppy compared to the analog audio feed.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 7, 2019 0:31:32 GMT -6
Thanks for admitting it! This is probably super common. Happened to me for a while (PTLE/not UAD). Finally I tracked a close friend and he swore the Protools was broken and wasn’t placing his performance on the down beat. I was skeptical and “knew” he just hadn’t practiced lol. Then he got really pissed after a take, so to prove to him how wrong he was I recorded his headphone feed along with his take. He was absolutely flawless, I was the idiot lol. Also I was a little bummed I didn’t think to verify the setup and delay compensation (I didn’t install/not my studio) So, just for record/reference, what is the proper way to set delay compensation while tracking with ProTools? I direct monitor through Motu’s mixer, so I don’t think that need to worry about that, correct? This didn’t have anything to do with Pro Tools. I monitor through the Apollo Console and it has a setting for input delay compensation that supposedly corrects phase issues with multiple mics. You can turn it off or long, short or medium. Mine was on and I didn’t know it. No perceptible delay in the headphones, but recorded into PT late. |
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Post by peterhess on Mar 7, 2019 16:44:46 GMT -6
John, did you turn it off altogether or set it to “short”?
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 7, 2019 21:39:37 GMT -6
John, did you turn it off altogether or set it to “short”? Turned it off altogether. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 8, 2019 9:03:26 GMT -6
Wasn't aware of this in Console. What is the recommended setting for one mic at a time for guys like me? I use Logic.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2019 9:40:56 GMT -6
off
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2019 9:44:09 GMT -6
I think I initially turned it on because it allowed me to use one of the tape plugs on a console channel. It just gives a little more power in console at the expense of delay. Well, I don't want my tracks to be delayed when recorded into my DAW. So, off is the proper setting. I also believe it's for phase coherence when using several mics on one source...which I hardly ever do and when I do, I use Sound Radix Auto align in the DAW. Works miracles.
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Post by drumrec on Mar 8, 2019 9:45:39 GMT -6
will this mean that there will always be delay when you have to run input delay compensation that supposedly corrects phase issues with multiple mics!?
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2019 9:54:15 GMT -6
As far as I can tell - yes. Drew @ UA Can you explain a little further? I think I'd rather just keep it off in console and deal with it later in the DAW...but maybe I'm missing something. Also - I'm probably not saying this right - but, you don't want OH's and Room mics to be in perfect phase with the kick/snare etc, right? Maybe in the correct polarity, but you want the timing to be off because that's what gives the sense of distance. But I'm not sure I completely understand phase/polarity/time... Just to expound - being slightly "out of phase" is not always a bad thing for distant micing, correct? It has to be somewhat out of phase, right? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2019 9:55:52 GMT -6
will this mean that there will always be delay when you have to run input delay compensation that supposedly corrects phase issues with multiple mics!? I know Drew mentioned that there are 32 samples of delay in the AUX channels...(if you record them, they will be 32 samples late)...I'm sure there are similar numbers with the different IDC lengths. |
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Post by drumrec on Mar 8, 2019 10:18:50 GMT -6
As far as I can tell - yes. Drew @ UA Can you explain a little further? I think I'd rather just keep it off in console and deal with it later in the DAW...but maybe I'm missing something. Also - I'm probably not saying this right - but, you don't want OH's and Room mics to be in perfect phase with the kick/snare etc, right? Maybe in the correct polarity, but you want the timing to be off because that's what gives the sense of distance. But I'm not sure I completely understand phase/polarity/time... Just to expound - being slightly "out of phase" is not always a bad thing for distant micing, correct? It has to be somewhat out of phase, right? You always want the microphones to be in phase. But the distance you want to have intact. So when I work with the room microphones, I make sure they are in phase with the other microphones before I record. Some like pulling all multitrack drums to the same starting point. Then you lose all the magic in sound (in my opinion) Everything is about the right balance in sound level. But I would really like to know how it is with delay from the console in to the daw. Because I use plugs when I track in console into logic. So it would be grateful if you could explain in more detail Drew Drew @ UA Thanks for heads up John |
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Post by javamad on Mar 8, 2019 11:15:49 GMT -6
Will be watching this thread with interest .. I checked and had mine set to Medium ... I just read the manual (who reads these things? :-) ) From page 183 of the most recent manual: Input Delay Compensation in ConsoleConsole has automatic Input Delay Compensation (IDC), which is controlled by the InputDelay Compensation menu in Console Settings. Console IDC maintains phase alignmentacross all Console’s analog and digital inputs when upsampled UAD plug-ins are used inConsole.For example: If two microphones are used on an acoustic source (such as a drum kit)and an upsampled plug-in is used on one of the mic channels but not the other, withoutinput delay compensation, the phase of the two mic channels would no longer bealigned.When I record drums for example I generally have API Channel on only some of the channels as I am mixing Apollo Unison Pre's with external pre's into Apollo Line in. I will have to look at how all this works and do some tests. Thanks for the heads up! ( but not for the homework ) |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2019 11:20:11 GMT -6
Maybe I'm insane and making all this up...but I swear when IDC is on, it's delaying the audio in the DAW by XX samples. It would be nice to be able to see how much that is so you could then drag the tracks back by that much.
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Post by drumrec on Mar 8, 2019 11:29:14 GMT -6
Maybe I'm insane and making all this up...but I swear when IDC is on, it's delaying the audio in the DAW by XX samples. It would be nice to be able to see how much that is so you could then drag the tracks back by that much. Think you have some points here John. Have thought it is not really in time when I have tracked with plugin in console (I am raised with the metronome) Is on vacation now, but have to check how my settings are in the console when I am back. Are about to invest 4 apollo (two X8P and two X16) in the big studio and want to be sure that this is not true. Because there are great advantages to tracking with some of the UA plugins, not if it delivers delay! |
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Post by javamad on Mar 8, 2019 11:54:05 GMT -6
OK, So I did a test with a dual capsule kick mic (AT2500 DE) and I put the API channel on the condenser and nothing on the dynamic capsule. I have ITC off. Here is the difference. I measured 52 samples. Screenshot from LogicEDIT: Another screenshot with ITC on ... the audio aligns Screenshot form Logic ITC on
EDIT 2: I set ITC to Medium and the audio aligns perfectly. The manual says that the API Vision channel strip adds 55 samples of delay so I guess when activated the Console Application adds to the different channels the up to the value of the highest latency introduced by the plugins, with the max of the ITC config. For a first recording of several channels through the Console thats clear enough .. but what happens when you are doing an overdub? .. hmmm I'd rather be making music than counting sample gaps  |
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Post by drumrec on Mar 8, 2019 13:14:52 GMT -6
EDIT 2: I set ITC to Medium and the audio aligns perfectly. The manual says that the API Vision channel strip adds 55 samples of delay so I guess when activated the Console Application adds to the different channels the up to the value of the highest latency introduced by the plugins, with the max of the ITC config. For a first recording of several channels through the Console thats clear enough .. but what happens when you are doing an overdub? .. hmmm I'd rather be making music than counting sample gaps It's a relevant question! As you say javamad you do a multitrack drum session and then overdub with whatever you choose and it gives different samples to your daw dependent which plugins you add to the console. Then I think you are at square one again and the whole concept with no latency is unsuccessful. Please, correct me if we rumble in the space Drew @ UA KR H |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2019 13:29:25 GMT -6
Here's what I'm trying to figure out. If I turn on IDC and record just one channel with ZERO plugs on the channel, is it being delayed when recorded to the DAW? EDIT: OK - I set up a mic, turned off IDC. Then I recorded a click playing through the monitors as the control. Then turned on Long IDC in Console and hit record again. Long has 30 samples of delay when it's recorded into the DAW. Short - 3 samples Medium - 6 That's with no plugs on the channel.  |
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Post by drumrec on Mar 8, 2019 13:38:50 GMT -6
Here's what I'm trying to figure out. If I turn on IDC and record just one channel with ZERO plugs on the channel, is it being delayed when recorded to the DAW? It is exactly the way I would test the whole concept if I was in the studio (difficult now when I am diving in Egypt) and taking it step by step. Will be interesting to follow the thread until I'm back in Sweden next week. Hope there is a solution, otherwise I will spend my 10K on another sound card for the new studio. keep spirits up |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2019 13:44:19 GMT -6
Doh...
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