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Post by M57 on Feb 24, 2019 10:23:07 GMT -6
Yes, I know it's blasphemous, but I'm only mildly embarrassed to admit that I spend more time with headphones on than listening to my monitors, which I use mostly just to check the lower frequencies in a mix. I do it for various reasons. One is privacy. Even though my studio is pretty separate from the rest of the house, I'm just don't like the idea of making my wife put up with the very unmusical job of my playing the same phrases over and over etc, even though she can probably barely hear it. Also I have cheap monitors. M-Audio BX-5s, and quite frankly, I prefer the sound of my ATH-M50s. Another reason: I mix in the same place I record, and even with a fair amount of treatment, I've always been uncomfortable with the idea of having speakers re-playing frequencies that are naturally spiking back into a room that's going to accentuate those room flaws even more. Just thinking about it gives me a circular-reasoning headache. On the other hand, no one seems to bring up this concern in forums, so I like to know what's fallacious about my argument?
Assuming that everyone here tells me I'm nuts to mix with headphones, I'm open to purchasing some good monitors, but I still want someone (or some-many) to convince me that this is the best place for me to invest. Why shouldn't I invest in the front end and be in a position where I can place more "trust" in the recording? E.g., for the price of a pair of Focal Shape 50s I could buy that pair of SDCs (MC-930/WA-84/SU-013/C-451-B, etc.) and still have some money left over to putting me half-way into a nice little bus compressor (I'd really like to experiment with a semi-hybrid set-up) or maybe an EQ for my recording chain. >>Waits for responses with tail between legs<<
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Post by notneeson on Feb 24, 2019 10:41:15 GMT -6
Mixing solely on high quality headphones is particularly problematic in the center channel balance and the bottom octave in my experience.
We lived abroad for three years and I took a small rig with me— headphones but no monitors.
Now that I'm back (for many years now) in a treated space with nice monitors, I do like to check what the HD650s are telling me as a secondary reference.
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Post by M57 on Feb 24, 2019 11:04:35 GMT -6
Yeah, I was hesitant to bring it up because I didn't want to cry at my own party, but I have noticed (though quite infrequently) that some instruments that I mix slightly left or right of center don't always seem to translate well to mono -for instance when I play a mix on my Libratone portable bluetooth. Is that possibly a result/artifact of headphone mixing? I can't say that I've noticed it with things panned dead center.
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Post by notneeson on Feb 24, 2019 11:19:46 GMT -6
Yeah, I was hesitant to bring it up because I didn't want to cry at my own party, but I have noticed (though quite infrequently) that some instruments that I mix slightly left or right of center don't always seem to translate well to mono -for instance when I play a mix on my Libratone portable bluetooth. Is that possibly a result/artifact of headphone mixing? I can't say that I've noticed it with things panned dead center. I would just check in mono for that kind of thing. What I'm saying is that things like kick, snare, vocal— stuff that's usually dead center are harder to place in a mix on cans. Physically attaching the "speakers" to you head changes the center channel balance. Boxes like the SPL Phonitor attempt to address this, how successfully, I can't say. |
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Post by matt on Feb 24, 2019 13:19:00 GMT -6
Yes, I know it's blasphemous, Assuming that everyone here tells me I'm nuts to mix with headphones Not really nuts, at all, in my view. Perhaps not as your only/primary monitor source, but certainly as a secondary check as notneeson mentions. I'm considering a set of open backs such as the ATH-R70X for just this purpose. Something relatively flat/neutral as far as headphones go. Now, here's a subject that reaches a near-religious fervor on the WWW. Talk about obsessive. Imagine if RGO talked about nothing but microphones. Wait . . . |
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 24, 2019 14:10:00 GMT -6
I do it all the time as the upside is all your room monitoring issues become moot.
I think if you check your mixes vs the obvious vulnerabilities: low bass, centre channel and soundstage you can get well calibrated for headphone mixing, but do check them !
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Post by reddirt on Feb 24, 2019 16:26:48 GMT -6
I have worked around similar issues for ages and while it ain't perfect it can be done.
The Shape 50s are a balanced little speaker however as is understandable they won't tell you what's absolutely going on down low still with good cans to check that low end my feeling is they could work as they appeared to have no vices in my limited audition. Later you could add a sub if your circumstances change much as Jerome on this forum used successfully in a pro environment for some time.
There are of course other great options by Hedd, Eve etc (I just bought Eve 305s which I really like paired with Grado cans).
As to the M50s, I found them to have a bass lift and couldn't trust them to give me a balance so moved on but cans are a moving feast. I still have a pair of mint R70x which have more truthful bottom end but too neutral overall for these tired ears.
I'd probably get the speakers first, see how it rolls and change the cans if you find you need a little more accuracy in the bottom end.
Hope that helps .
Cheers, Ross
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Post by Ward on Feb 24, 2019 17:15:24 GMT -6
Ok for working on a mix once the elements are all established, but not from start to finish.
Nothing wrong with using small monitors to start mixes with or finish them off. I'd recommend something that sounds ugly, not pretty or complimentary to your mixes. you want them to sound good EVERYWHERE
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Post by M57 on Feb 24, 2019 17:22:57 GMT -6
Ok for working on a mix once the elements are all established, but not from start to finish. Nothing wrong with using small monitors to start mixes with or finish them off. I'd recommend something that sounds ugly, not pretty or complimentary to your mixes. you want them to sound good EVERYWHERE Hah, I sold my NS-10s just a few years ago, and if my mixes now are worse, at least I'm happier. Those things made me want to throw in the towel. But point taken. I just wonder how much detail I'm losing out on by not using a higher-end set of monitors - and how important is that at my level as a home studio kind of guy. |
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Post by M57 on Feb 24, 2019 17:31:36 GMT -6
I have worked around similar issues for ages and while it ain't perfect it can be done. The Shape 50s are a balanced little speaker however as is understandable they won't tell you what's absolutely going on down low still with good cans to check that low end my feeling is they could work as they appeared to have no vices in my limited audition. Later you could add a sub if your circumstances change much as Jerome on this forum used successfully in a pro environment for some time. There are of course other great options by Hedd, Eve etc (I just bought Eve 305s which I really like paired with Grado cans). As to the M50s, I found them to have a bass lift and couldn't trust them to give me a balance so moved on but cans are a moving feast. I still have a pair of mint R70x which have more truthful bottom end but too neutral overall for these tired ears. I'd probably get the speakers first, see how it rolls and change the cans if you find you need a little more accuracy in the bottom end. Hope that helps . Cheers, Ross Thanks Ross, Fwiw, mine is a personal studio which I use exclusively for my own projects, and I'm a mostly acoustic kind of guy, mixing more on the folk/rock and old school jazz side; I'm not a fan of ultra-low end thump, at least not in the genres I write in. I like to move a tiny bit of air at 55-65 hz, but that's about it, so I start rolling things off around there, probably at a higher frequency than the average bear. Pretty much all subs just sound like mud to me. |
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Post by Ward on Feb 24, 2019 18:10:27 GMT -6
Ok for working on a mix once the elements are all established, but not from start to finish. Nothing wrong with using small monitors to start mixes with or finish them off. I'd recommend something that sounds ugly, not pretty or complimentary to your mixes. you want them to sound good EVERYWHERE Hah, I sold my NS-10s just a few years ago, and if my mixes now are worse, at least I'm happier. Those things made me want to throw in the towel. But point taken. I just wonder how much detail I'm losing out on by not using a higher-end set of monitors - and how important is that at my level as a home studio kind of guy. You don't have to back to NS10Ms!!  You should check out the Neumann 120s or a bunch of similar mid-priced small powered monitors. |
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Post by ericn on Feb 24, 2019 19:27:11 GMT -6
Less an issue these days with more and more consuming via mobile, but you still got to check on speakers or your going to find many people very disappointed.
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Post by viciousbliss on Feb 24, 2019 21:34:34 GMT -6
I have a lot of trouble getting things to translate using lsr-305 JBL monitors in these untreated rooms. But I can get good translation most of the time using K701s in the ID14 interface. It would be better if Audient used the open source Nwavguy designs from the odac and O2 as they measure near perfect and have settings to work with most any headphone regardless of impedance or amping requirements. It’s very rare for amps and dacs for headphones to get measured at all. I never found use for Sonarworks, redline monitor, the toneboosters one, or any of the other headphone mixing plugins. There’s only so much they can do when they have no idea how your amp and dac are changing things.
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Post by Tbone81 on Feb 24, 2019 21:56:06 GMT -6
You can find a used pair of small Adam’s, Dynaudio’s, certain jbl’s etc that will wipe the floor with your bx5s and that are fairly cheap. Nothing wrong with mixing on headphones, some guys make it work, but it’s not easy and at some point you’re going to want to check your mixes.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2019 22:01:54 GMT -6
I really like to listen to my older Klein und Hummels.(Now Neumann KH-series.)
And to expensive audiophile stereo, just because i sometimes find something interesting that I might change...
BUT I happen to mix a lot at night, and by recommendation of some guys from the Mixbus community I made another attempt in headphone mixing and am quite pleased with it. I have been recommended Waves NX, which might be great, but use the free BeyerdynamicVS, that emulates room setups as well, but with more focus on translation to bad realworld conditions, which I really like, because this is really critical for the extreme metal stuff I did in the last year. I am on win8.1 and use EqualizerAPO with the BeyerdynamicVS loaded into it. This works great as a set and forget virtual soundcard.
I am quite surprised how good it turns out after a few months of listening this way. I focus more on translation of the mixes and use references to find out their general balances etc. so I don't lose track of the goal...
The last demo I gave away without even listening to the result on real monitors and it really translates like it should / like intended. So, I guess there are no strict rules anymore in the field of hp vs. monitors. I love to work with both.
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Post by Blackdawg on Feb 24, 2019 22:14:27 GMT -6
If you plan on using headphones for just about everything, Id give this a try: goodhertz.co/canopener-studioI use Headphones a lot to edit with. But to mix, speakers all day. |
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Post by EmRR on Feb 24, 2019 22:46:45 GMT -6
I use them for some editing and NR jobs, and find them useful for dialing in HPF's. That's about it. I agree center channel can be wildly off from what speakers present.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 24, 2019 23:04:19 GMT -6
I mix on headphones a majority of the time and I've got 2 sets of Amphions, PMCs, high end Adams, and big JBLs.
If you're comfortable on the headphones and you're mixes are translating, stick with what you've got.
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Post by swurveman on Feb 25, 2019 12:30:35 GMT -6
I mix on headphones a majority of the time and I've got 2 sets of Amphions, PMCs, high end Adams, and big JBLs. If you're comfortable on the headphones and you're mixes are translating, stick with what you've got. What headphones are you using Jesse? I have good Sennheiser, AKG and Focal headphones and each of them sound different, particularly their bass response. I suppose though they're like speakers: You pick one, learn them and off you go. |
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Post by chessparov on Feb 25, 2019 13:31:34 GMT -6
Not Jesse, but I remember Jim Williams liked the Sony MDR-V6's (I have a pair). Also have AKG 240 DF's.
Chris
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Post by Guitar on Feb 25, 2019 19:51:19 GMT -6
I wouldn't want to mix on headphones without a speaker reference. That's just how it is for me. You can do some work on headphones, sure, but not without a check on speakers for some amount of time.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 25, 2019 21:25:41 GMT -6
I mix on headphones a majority of the time and I've got 2 sets of Amphions, PMCs, high end Adams, and big JBLs. If you're comfortable on the headphones and you're mixes are translating, stick with what you've got. What headphones are you using Jesse? I have good Sennheiser, AKG and Focal headphones and each of them sound different, particularly their bass response. I suppose though they're like speakers: You pick one, learn them and off you go. Most of the time I'm on AKG Q701. I also use Sennheiser HD650. And occasionally using my Bose QC35. All sound different. |
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Post by Guitar on Feb 26, 2019 9:31:58 GMT -6
What headphones are you using Jesse? I have good Sennheiser, AKG and Focal headphones and each of them sound different, particularly their bass response. I suppose though they're like speakers: You pick one, learn them and off you go. Most of the time I'm on AKG Q701. I also use Sennheiser HD650. And occasionally using my Bose QC35. All sound different. That's funny, I use AKG K702, and I have some HD6XX (Massdrop HD650) coming hopefully this week. Great minds think alike. |
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Post by Omicron9 on Feb 26, 2019 10:46:08 GMT -6
To check mixes, reverbs, stereo field, and that kind of highly detailed elements, I use the Shure 940s. Shure 940 monitor headphonesSuper accurate over anything else I've tried (Senn 650, AKG 700 series, AKG 27x series, A/T ATM50, et. al.). Very comfortable as well. Stereo field and depth like I've never heard in cans. Hiiiiiighly recommended. -09 |
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Post by jakeboy on Feb 26, 2019 22:33:39 GMT -6
I use both. Since the vast majority of people nowadays listen on earbuds...crap ones at that....or in their vehicles, I mix and master on decent speakers, nice headphones, ok headphones, cheap buds, and also run the mixes and masters through car speakers while driving.
Once I am happy with the mix/master through studio monitors, phones, my iPod/phone, and in my car, I feel I have the bases covered.
The majority of the time I am on quality phones, then I dial things in with speakers, and then back to phones....last is the iPod and iPad and the car.
If I had a real nice quality room treated perfectly, I am sure I’d use speakers almost exclusively and then check the mix/master with all the above.
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