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Post by jtc111 on Feb 26, 2019 23:11:34 GMT -6
Treating the room is paramount. I get that not all rooms are easily treated (my own room is way too small right now) but treat it as best you can and then you have to teach your ears what's going on in there. Because my room is problematic, I jump back and forth from monitors to headphones a lot when I mix. My mixing headphones are the Massdrop version of the Sennheiser HD 650, and my monitors are Neumann KH120s. If I push the monitors up too loudly, the room problems get in the way so I have to use the monitors at a level lower than I'd prefer. I only push them up when I'm working on the low end. And part of the reason I went with the Neumann monitors is because the bass ports are in front. I can't help but have the monitors too close to a wall right now and rear bass ports would have made a bad problem worse. By the fall I should be in a much larger house and my small room issues will finally be gone.
Would I ever feel comfortable mixing on headphones and bad monitors? Probably not. I'm not a big fan of headphones and see them as a bit of a necessary evil. I can't imagine spending my days recording and mixing music only to listen to it on headphones and cheap monitors. But more to the point, monitors and microphones are at the top of my list for what's important in the studio. I want to send the best I can into the system, and I want to hear what I'm doing the best I can when things come out of the system. Headphones just can't give me the complete picture. I need them in my current situation but the monitors are more important. There's nothing wrong with investing in the front end, but if you buy great mics, don't you want to hear the great stuff coming out of them?
On the other hand, the M-Audio BX-5 monitors are bad enough that if you make something sound good on them, it probably transfers well. But I think it has to be fatiguing to listen to bad monitors all day. I wouldn't get rid of the M-Audios. I keep them as a second pair to check my mix on. If you want to upgrade your monitors and still have some money left over for the front end, maybe a pair of Yamaha HS7s would do the trick. You probably want to keep them a foot from the wall but they're not bad for $300 apiece. They're not as easy on the ears as the Neumanns but they're half the price. I can't comment on the Focals because I've never heard them but the Neumanns don't fatigue my ears too quickly.
I hope this ramble is helpful in some way.
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Post by hio on Feb 27, 2019 5:59:18 GMT -6
I have many different headphones to check my mixes on and I can't say enough good things about the Sennheiser HD 650s. Eye opening really, I mean ear opening on many levels and my favorite pair hands down.
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Post by lcr on Feb 27, 2019 6:35:05 GMT -6
Agreed.
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Post by Omicron9 on Feb 27, 2019 8:19:12 GMT -6
I have many different headphones to check my mixes on and I can't say enough good things about the Sennheiser HD 650s. Eye opening really, I mean ear opening on many levels and my favorite pair hands down. Interesting. My experiences with the 650 was entirely different. The top end was so dull and muddy that it sounded as if the earcups were stuffed with cotton. Nothing tranlsated on them. Of course in some camps, dull and muddy = vintage warmth. I will say that the fit was super comfortable. -09
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Post by lcr on Feb 27, 2019 8:26:04 GMT -6
Super comfortable and not fatiguing. I think the “warm” one can learn and compensate for.
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Post by notneeson on Feb 27, 2019 8:35:04 GMT -6
I have many different headphones to check my mixes on and I can't say enough good things about the Sennheiser HD 650s. Eye opening really, I mean ear opening on many levels and my favorite pair hands down. Interesting. My experiences with the 650 was entirely different. The top end was so dull and muddy that it sounded as if the earcups were stuffed with cotton. Nothing tranlsated on them. Of course in some camps, dull and muddy = vintage warmth. I will say that the fit was super comfortable. -09 How do you feel about Sony 7506s?
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Post by Guitar on Feb 27, 2019 9:05:00 GMT -6
Treating the room is paramount. I get that not all rooms are easily treated (my own room is way too small right now) but treat it as best you can and then you have to teach your ears what's going on in there. Because my room is problematic, I jump back and forth from monitors to headphones a lot when I mix. My mixing headphones are the Massdrop version of the Sennheiser HD 650, and my monitors are Neumann KH120s. If I push the monitors up too loudly, the room problems get in the way so I have to use the monitors at a level lower than I'd prefer. I only push them up when I'm working on the low end. And part of the reason I went with the Neumann monitors is because the bass ports are in front. I can't help but have the monitors too close to a wall right now and rear bass ports would have made a bad problem worse. By the fall I should be in a much larger house and my small room issues will finally be gone. Would I ever feel comfortable mixing on headphones and bad monitors? Probably not. I'm not a big fan of headphones and see them as a bit of a necessary evil. I can't imagine spending my days recording and mixing music only to listen to it on headphones and cheap monitors. But more to the point, monitors and microphones are at the top of my list for what's important in the studio. I want to send the best I can into the system, and I want to hear what I'm doing the best I can when things come out of the system. Headphones just can't give me the complete picture. I need them in my current situation but the monitors are more important. There's nothing wrong with investing in the front end, but if you buy great mics, don't you want to hear the great stuff coming out of them? On the other hand, the M-Audio BX-5 monitors are bad enough that if you make something sound good on them, it probably transfers well. But I think it has to be fatiguing to listen to bad monitors all day. I wouldn't get rid of the M-Audios. I keep them as a second pair to check my mix on. If you want to upgrade your monitors and still have some money left over for the front end, maybe a pair of Yamaha HS7s would do the trick. You probably want to keep them a foot from the wall but they're not bad for $300 apiece. They're not as easy on the ears as the Neumanns but they're half the price. I can't comment on the Focals because I've never heard them but the Neumanns don't fatigue my ears too quickly. I hope this ramble is helpful in some way. There's many bullet points in there I agree with: I also think microphones and monitor speakers deserve extra bucks, and emphasis, in studio purchasing. Room treatment and speaker placement is critical. Even the monitor controller is important, and the monitor DAC. You have to be able to trust what you hear. I don't like working on monitors that wear out my ears, ie, too bright. Ear fatigue is a real concern if you do this for any length of time. Not sure which Focal's you're referring to, but I have some front ported Aria 906 here (passive bookshelf speakers), and they are noticeably gentle in the tweeters, compared to almost anything else I've used. My Topping DX7S DAC is also a bit gentle on the top end. I've learned to love it. Just pretend I'm listening to tape or vinyl or something.
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Post by Omicron9 on Feb 27, 2019 9:14:14 GMT -6
Interesting. My experiences with the 650 was entirely different. The top end was so dull and muddy that it sounded as if the earcups were stuffed with cotton. Nothing tranlsated on them. Of course in some camps, dull and muddy = vintage warmth. I will say that the fit was super comfortable. -09 How do you feel about Sony 7506s? I use them for tracking and like them (and the AKG K270 and 271); wouldn't use for mixing. And by "mixing," I mean only checking elements of a mix (reverb tails, e.g.), not doing a printable mix. This is only what I like, and may have no bearing in reality to what anyone else likes. As ever, it is just one person's opinion; take it and $3. to Starbucks and buy a cup.
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Post by jtc111 on Feb 27, 2019 9:27:49 GMT -6
Treating the room is paramount. I get that not all rooms are easily treated (my own room is way too small right now) but treat it as best you can and then you have to teach your ears what's going on in there. Because my room is problematic, I jump back and forth from monitors to headphones a lot when I mix. My mixing headphones are the Massdrop version of the Sennheiser HD 650, and my monitors are Neumann KH120s. If I push the monitors up too loudly, the room problems get in the way so I have to use the monitors at a level lower than I'd prefer. I only push them up when I'm working on the low end. And part of the reason I went with the Neumann monitors is because the bass ports are in front. I can't help but have the monitors too close to a wall right now and rear bass ports would have made a bad problem worse. By the fall I should be in a much larger house and my small room issues will finally be gone. Would I ever feel comfortable mixing on headphones and bad monitors? Probably not. I'm not a big fan of headphones and see them as a bit of a necessary evil. I can't imagine spending my days recording and mixing music only to listen to it on headphones and cheap monitors. But more to the point, monitors and microphones are at the top of my list for what's important in the studio. I want to send the best I can into the system, and I want to hear what I'm doing the best I can when things come out of the system. Headphones just can't give me the complete picture. I need them in my current situation but the monitors are more important. There's nothing wrong with investing in the front end, but if you buy great mics, don't you want to hear the great stuff coming out of them? On the other hand, the M-Audio BX-5 monitors are bad enough that if you make something sound good on them, it probably transfers well. But I think it has to be fatiguing to listen to bad monitors all day. I wouldn't get rid of the M-Audios. I keep them as a second pair to check my mix on. If you want to upgrade your monitors and still have some money left over for the front end, maybe a pair of Yamaha HS7s would do the trick. You probably want to keep them a foot from the wall but they're not bad for $300 apiece. They're not as easy on the ears as the Neumanns but they're half the price. I can't comment on the Focals because I've never heard them but the Neumanns don't fatigue my ears too quickly. I hope this ramble is helpful in some way. There's many bullet points in there I agree with: I also think microphones and monitor speakers deserve extra bucks, and emphasis, in studio purchasing. Room treatment and speaker placement is critical. Even the monitor controller is important, and the monitor DAC. You have to be able to trust what you hear. I don't like working on monitors that wear out my ears, ie, too bright. Ear fatigue is a real concern if you do this for any length of time. Not sure which Focal's you're referring to, but I have some front ported Aria 906 here (passive bookshelf speakers), and they are noticeably gentle in the tweeters, compared to almost anything else I've used. My Topping DX7S DAC is also a bit gentle on the top end. I've learned to love it. Just pretend I'm listening to tape or vinyl or something. I was referring to the Focal Shape 50s that the OP mentioned in his first post. Prior to the Neumann KH120s I had a pair of Mackie 624s. The Mackies were hard to listen to for any length of time. The top end was a bit harsh. The Neumanns are much easier on my ears. It's really just in the past couple of years that monitors moved up my priority list. The Neumanns opened my eyes and once I relocate and upsize my studio room, there's probably a pair of midfields in my future. The Adam AX8 is at the top of my list right now but that decision is at least a year off so it could change.
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Post by notneeson on Feb 27, 2019 11:21:31 GMT -6
How do you feel about Sony 7506s? I use them for tracking and like them (and the AKG K270 and 271); wouldn't use for mixing. And by "mixing," I mean only checking elements of a mix (reverb tails, e.g.), not doing a printable mix. This is only what I like, and may have no bearing in reality to what anyone else likes. As ever, it is just one person's opinion; take it and $3. to Starbucks and buy a cup. Totally, it just makes sense to me that someone who doesn't like the top on 650s would like 7506s, they're kind of opposites to me.
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Post by hio on Feb 27, 2019 17:50:50 GMT -6
I have many different headphones to check my mixes on and I can't say enough good things about the Sennheiser HD 650s. Eye opening really, I mean ear opening on many levels and my favorite pair hands down. Interesting. My experiences with the 650 was entirely different. The top end was so dull and muddy that it sounded as if the earcups were stuffed with cotton. Nothing tranlsated on them. Of course in some camps, dull and muddy = vintage warmth. I will say that the fit was super comfortable. -09 With all due respect and no offense intended but could your cow have possibly milked on them. Milk can turn into cheese you know, and maybe that is the woolly cotton sound you might be hearing. Any cats and dogs around, I have heard they can get jello-us of some things. "Opinions are like ears, and most everyone has two of them and no two ears are alike so what sounds one way to some might sound another way to others. I call it the Earprint Principle." DR (That's me)
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Post by Blackdawg on Feb 27, 2019 19:20:47 GMT -6
I have many different headphones to check my mixes on and I can't say enough good things about the Sennheiser HD 650s. Eye opening really, I mean ear opening on many levels and my favorite pair hands down. Interesting. My experiences with the 650 was entirely different. The top end was so dull and muddy that it sounded as if the earcups were stuffed with cotton. Nothing tranlsated on them. Of course in some camps, dull and muddy = vintage warmth. I will say that the fit was super comfortable. -09 What amp do you use? I use 650s and 702s daily. Love them both for different reasons. Interesting. My experiences with the 650 was entirely different. The top end was so dull and muddy that it sounded as if the earcups were stuffed with cotton. Nothing tranlsated on them. Of course in some camps, dull and muddy = vintage warmth. I will say that the fit was super comfortable. -09 How do you feel about Sony 7506s? Very very bright haha
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Post by jtc111 on Feb 27, 2019 20:03:05 GMT -6
Interesting. My experiences with the 650 was entirely different. The top end was so dull and muddy that it sounded as if the earcups were stuffed with cotton. Nothing tranlsated on them. Of course in some camps, dull and muddy = vintage warmth. I will say that the fit was super comfortable. -09 What amp do you use? I use 650s and 702s daily. Love them both for different reasons. How do you feel about Sony 7506s? Very very bright haha Yep. And they don't mellow with age. I have a pair that must be getting close to 20 years old. I never use them for anything studio related anymore.
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Post by dankin on Feb 27, 2019 20:19:24 GMT -6
I use them for tracking and like them (and the AKG K270 and 271); wouldn't use for mixing. And by "mixing," I mean only checking elements of a mix (reverb tails, e.g.), not doing a printable mix. This is only what I like, and may have no bearing in reality to what anyone else likes. As ever, it is just one person's opinion; take it and $3. to Starbucks and buy a cup. Totally, it just makes sense to me that someone who doesn't like the top on 650s would like 7506s, they're kind of opposites to me. I'm not crazy about the top with either of those. I find my 650's to be too dull, and 7506's to be really harsh. The 650's are my favorite if I have to wear headphones for long periods of time. I've used them for tracking live projects when I'm setup in a bad room backstage. But, it's hard for me to judge sibilance, shakers and other hi percussion elements with them. Same for mouth clicks and other noises. I'm still looking for a all around pair of headphones I like. I would like to try the 600's as well as the Shure 1840's and the AT-R70x. My current choice of closed headphones are the ATM-40X, I have some 50x as well, but they are too hyped IMO. The 40X are less hyped, although still a little too bright. My main issue with the AT headphones, is they get uncomfortable really quick. For amps, I have a SPL Phonitor mini, the one in my Dangerous Monitor ST, and a Grace M9XX that I use for travel/home. I had some Audeze LCD-X for a while, but I didn't use them enough to justify having them. They had the best bottom of any headphone I've heard, but the upper mids and top was strange to my ears. Also they were way to heavy to wear for very long. I would add, that I've yet to be able to do a mix completely in headphones, but I do like to check mix's in headphones, and I use them for doing revisions all the time if I'm away from the studio.
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Post by notneeson on Feb 27, 2019 21:48:19 GMT -6
Interesting. My experiences with the 650 was entirely different. The top end was so dull and muddy that it sounded as if the earcups were stuffed with cotton. Nothing tranlsated on them. Of course in some camps, dull and muddy = vintage warmth. I will say that the fit was super comfortable. -09 What amp do you use? I use 650s and 702s daily. Love them both for different reasons. How do you feel about Sony 7506s? Very very bright haha Exactly.
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Post by hio on Feb 27, 2019 21:54:33 GMT -6
Interesting. My experiences with the 650 was entirely different. The top end was so dull and muddy that it sounded as if the earcups were stuffed with cotton. Nothing tranlsated on them. Of course in some camps, dull and muddy = vintage warmth. I will say that the fit was super comfortable. -09 With all due respect and no offense intended but could your cow have possibly milked on them. Milk can turn into cheese you know, and maybe that is the woolly cotton sound you might be hearing. Any cats and dogs around, I have heard they can get jello-us of some things. "Opinions are like ears, and most everyone has two of them and no two ears are alike so what sounds one way to some might sound another way to others. I call it the Earprint Principle." DR (That's me) Sorry Omi, I fergot to put a smiley on my post I will edit this now.
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Post by M57 on Feb 28, 2019 5:22:17 GMT -6
Treating the room is paramount. I get that not all rooms are easily treated (my own room is way too small right now) but treat it as best you can and then you have to teach your ears what's going on in there. Because my room is problematic, I jump back and forth from monitors to headphones a lot when I mix. My mixing headphones are the Massdrop version of the Sennheiser HD 650, and my monitors are Neumann KH120s. If I push the monitors up too loudly, the room problems get in the way so I have to use the monitors at a level lower than I'd prefer. I only push them up when I'm working on the low end. And part of the reason I went with the Neumann monitors is because the bass ports are in front. I can't help but have the monitors too close to a wall right now and rear bass ports would have made a bad problem worse. By the fall I should be in a much larger house and my small room issues will finally be gone. Would I ever feel comfortable mixing on headphones and bad monitors? Probably not. I'm not a big fan of headphones and see them as a bit of a necessary evil. I can't imagine spending my days recording and mixing music only to listen to it on headphones and cheap monitors. But more to the point, monitors and microphones are at the top of my list for what's important in the studio. I want to send the best I can into the system, and I want to hear what I'm doing the best I can when things come out of the system. Headphones just can't give me the complete picture. I need them in my current situation but the monitors are more important. There's nothing wrong with investing in the front end, but if you buy great mics, don't you want to hear the great stuff coming out of them? On the other hand, the M-Audio BX-5 monitors are bad enough that if you make something sound good on them, it probably transfers well. But I think it has to be fatiguing to listen to bad monitors all day. I wouldn't get rid of the M-Audios. I keep them as a second pair to check my mix on. If you want to upgrade your monitors and still have some money left over for the front end, maybe a pair of Yamaha HS7s would do the trick. You probably want to keep them a foot from the wall but they're not bad for $300 apiece. They're not as easy on the ears as the Neumanns but they're half the price. I can't comment on the Focals because I've never heard them but the Neumanns don't fatigue my ears too quickly. I hope this ramble is helpful in some way. Thanks jtc111 Super relevant post. First, my room is pretty well-treated. My desk is an island with the speakers almost 3 feet away from walls so I'm pretty sure any ported speaker would do the job (BX-5s are ported in the rear). Reading your post, it occurred to me that you're right ..another reason I listen on headphones more than speakers is that I don't really like the sound of the BX-5s ..although they sound better than the NS-10s that I sold a few years back. Nonetheless, I should probably listen more on them because not unlike with the NS-10s, if I can get them to sound decent will yield a good mix. Even if I upgrade and decide to keep them, I'll have to be creative about where to put two sets of speakers. I have a large desk, but two speakers and two 27" screens pretty much fill up the upper tier. Strangely enough, one of the things that holding me back from pulling the trigger on this one is that I don't know that I want to make the commitment to listening more on speakers. Functionally speaking, if all I need monitors for is to keep a check on lower frequencies, it doesn't make a lot of sense to break the bank on them. In fact, not buying anything and just living with the BX-5's is an option at that point. There are just so many other toys in the store that I want.
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Post by Omicron9 on Feb 28, 2019 10:06:49 GMT -6
Interesting. My experiences with the 650 was entirely different. The top end was so dull and muddy that it sounded as if the earcups were stuffed with cotton. Nothing tranlsated on them. Of course in some camps, dull and muddy = vintage warmth. I will say that the fit was super comfortable. -09 With all due respect and no offense intended but could your cow have possibly milked on them. Milk can turn into cheese you know, and maybe that is the woolly cotton sound you might be hearing. Any cats and dogs around, I have heard they can get jello-us of some things. "Opinions are like ears, and most everyone has two of them and no two ears are alike so what sounds one way to some might sound another way to others. I call it the Earprint Principle." DR (That's me) Come to think of it... my cow has been acting suspicious lately....
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Post by iamasound on Feb 28, 2019 12:09:57 GMT -6
My main issue with the AT headphones, is they get uncomfortable really quick For my Audio Technica phones I bought velour replacements all around for those crazy sweat making machines and cracking with age pleather originals which have made for me a totally different audio experience, one of comfort and a pleasurable, no sweat ease of use affair.
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Post by jtc111 on Feb 28, 2019 12:27:44 GMT -6
Thanks jtc111 Super relevant post. First, my room is pretty well-treated. My desk is an island with the speakers almost 3 feet away from walls so I'm pretty sure any ported speaker would do the job (BX-5s are ported in the rear). Reading your post, it occurred to me that you're right ..another reason I listen on headphones more than speakers is that I don't really like the sound of the BX-5s ..although they sound better than the NS-10s that I sold a few years back. Nonetheless, I should probably listen more on them because not unlike with the NS-10s, if I can get them to sound decent will yield a good mix. Even if I upgrade and decide to keep them, I'll have to be creative about where to put two sets of speakers. I have a large desk, but two speakers and two 27" screens pretty much fill up the upper tier. Strangely enough, one of the things that holding me back from pulling the trigger on this one is that I don't know that I want to make the commitment to listening more on speakers. Functionally speaking, if all I need monitors for is to keep a check on lower frequencies, it doesn't make a lot of sense to break the bank on them. In fact, not buying anything and just living with the BX-5's is an option at that point. There are just so many other toys in the store that I want. I'm glad you thought my post was helpful but if you have a well-treated room and you're not up against a wall, you're in better shape than most to really benefit from a set of good monitors. I think if you take the plunge, you'll be kicking yourself for not having done it sooner.
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Post by svart on Feb 28, 2019 13:05:16 GMT -6
I use some Panasonic HJE120 earbuds.
They're 9$, yet they're some of the most flat earbuds I've ever used. They're never harsh nor fatiguing at all. I have like 4 pairs spread all over. I have one at work that I listen to all day everyday, a set in the car for going to the gym, a set in the studio for checking stuff, and a set that I use for travelling, etc.
I love these things. The only problem is that they're also cheaply made and do tend to break after a while.
They're useful in that anything that sounds out of place or harsh on them is generally too much, but they also sound good too.
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Post by chessparov on Mar 1, 2019 8:05:02 GMT -6
Sony MDR-V6's sound "darker", compared to their fraternal twins-7506. Chris
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Post by Omicron9 on Mar 1, 2019 10:03:45 GMT -6
For my Audio Technica phones I bought velour replacements all around for those crazy sweat making machines and cracking with age pleather originals which have made for me a totally different audio experience, one of comfort and a pleasurable, no sweat ease of use affair. Might I ask where you found those? Sounds like a great thing.
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Post by Omicron9 on Mar 1, 2019 10:04:50 GMT -6
Totally, it just makes sense to me that someone who doesn't like the top on 650s would like 7506s, they're kind of opposites to me. I'm not crazy about the top with either of those. I find my 650's to be too dull, and 7506's to be really harsh. The 650's are my favorite if I have to wear headphones for long periods of time. I've used them for tracking live projects when I'm setup in a bad room backstage. But, it's hard for me to judge sibilance, shakers and other hi percussion elements with them. Same for mouth clicks and other noises. I'm still looking for a all around pair of headphones I like. I would like to try the 600's as well as the Shure 1840's and the AT-R70x. My current choice of closed headphones are the ATM-40X, I have some 50x as well, but they are too hyped IMO. The 40X are less hyped, although still a little too bright. My main issue with the AT headphones, is they get uncomfortable really quick. For amps, I have a SPL Phonitor mini, the one in my Dangerous Monitor ST, and a Grace M9XX that I use for travel/home. I had some Audeze LCD-X for a while, but I didn't use them enough to justify having them. They had the best bottom of any headphone I've heard, but the upper mids and top was strange to my ears. Also they were way to heavy to wear for very long. I would add, that I've yet to be able to do a mix completely in headphones, but I do like to check mix's in headphones, and I use them for doing revisions all the time if I'm away from the studio. Try the Shure 940.
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Post by Omicron9 on Mar 1, 2019 10:05:55 GMT -6
With all due respect and no offense intended but could your cow have possibly milked on them. Milk can turn into cheese you know, and maybe that is the woolly cotton sound you might be hearing. Any cats and dogs around, I have heard they can get jello-us of some things. "Opinions are like ears, and most everyone has two of them and no two ears are alike so what sounds one way to some might sound another way to others. I call it the Earprint Principle." DR (That's me) Sorry Omi, I fergot to put a smiley on my post I will edit this now. That's OK; I smiled when I read your post.
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