|
Post by drsax on Feb 20, 2019 9:49:15 GMT -6
In the Clipalator, the Warm sound quite a bit different to the KM84 to my ears, and not in a good way. I think these can be added to the list of Warm gear that is a good value “for the money”, but high end gear is high end, and Warm Audio is not high end.
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Feb 20, 2019 9:51:39 GMT -6
In the Clipalator, the Warm sound quite a bit different to the KM84 to my ears, and not in a good way. I think these can be added to the list of Warm gear that is a good value “for the money”, but high end gear is high end, and Warm Audio is not high end. Buy nice, not twice.
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Feb 20, 2019 10:20:00 GMT -6
You may want to check out an AKG C-460-B. Very neutral, and excellent for the instruments you describe. Another to check out is the Shure KSM-141. Highly underrated. Neither of these are referenced as KM-84 replacements; only as excellent SDCs that are quite versatile and not hyped. -09 They are excellent SDCs for sure, but nothing like KM84s. Flat and uncolored in a different way, and end up sounding nothing like a KM84. They sound a little closer to a KM184. I have 3 of them (including a matched pair), and a matched pair of 451s, and a pair of KM84s (within 0.1db everywhere and sound matched) and a matched pair of Beyer MC930s amongst another dozen in my SDC cupboard . . . the Beyers are closer to the KM84s than anything else I've listed. or unlisted So many beat up KM84’s out there,. MIne are half beat-up and still sound and work perfectly, so there's that testament to their durability!
|
|
|
Post by Omicron9 on Feb 20, 2019 10:46:42 GMT -6
You may want to check out an AKG C-460-B. Very neutral, and excellent for the instruments you describe. Another to check out is the Shure KSM-141. Highly underrated. Neither of these are referenced as KM-84 replacements; only as excellent SDCs that are quite versatile and not hyped. -09 They are excellent SDCs for sure, but nothing like KM84s. Flat and uncolored in a different way, and end up sounding nothing like a KM84. They sound a little closer to a KM184. ...snip..... Yep. That's why I said " Neither of these are referenced as KM-84 replacements; only as excellent SDCs that are quite versatile and not hyped." Although in my experience, the 460 sounds nothing like a 184.
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Feb 20, 2019 11:05:30 GMT -6
They are excellent SDCs for sure, but nothing like KM84s. Flat and uncolored in a different way, and end up sounding nothing like a KM84. They sound a little closer to a KM184. ...snip..... Yep. That's why I said " Neither of these are referenced as KM-84 replacements; only as excellent SDCs that are quite versatile and not hyped." Although in my experience, the 460 sounds nothing like a 184. Chill bro. I did say "a little closer". I think we are speaking the same language here
|
|
|
Post by drsax on Feb 20, 2019 11:14:34 GMT -6
In the Clipalator, the Warm sound quite a bit different to the KM84 to my ears, and not in a good way. I think these can be added to the list of Warm gear that is a good value “for the money”, but high end gear is high end, and Warm Audio is not high end. Buy nice, not twice. Perfectly Said
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Feb 20, 2019 11:55:56 GMT -6
In the Clipalator, the Warm sound quite a bit different to the KM84 to my ears, and not in a good way. I think these can be added to the list of Warm gear that is a good value “for the money”, but high end gear is high end, and Warm Audio is not high end. My impressions as well. At least on the 84 front.
|
|
|
Post by mcirish on Feb 20, 2019 12:43:43 GMT -6
I know we all repeat ourselves constantly on forums, so I will join in. I have spent a lot of quality time on the last album project with three different SDC mics. KM84, MC-012 (modded), MC930. Each are great in their own way. If you want to close mic a guitar or mandolin, it's a toss-up between the KM84 and the MC012. Dr Bill is right. They could be interchangeable. Seriously. I have them both on every track of the last album I worked on (still mixing) and I could switch between channels and I know you won't be able to guess where the cuts are on a consistent basis, much less tell me which is which. So for a close mic on a guitar, get a MC012 and mod it for a couple bucks, if you can't afford a KM84. You won't be missing anything. Now, if you want to pull the mic back a couple feet, they are no longer the same. The KM84 has a very even response when off-axis. The MC012 is not bad in that situation but it isn't the same.
Now another thought. The KM84 is not going to be the right mic all the time. Blasphemy... The MC930 is way better on bowed string instruments and upright bass IMO. I did a shootout with all three on violin and it wasn't close. The KM84 and MC012 have a wonderful clarity due to the slightest upper mid boost. The MC930 has none of that. So, for an instrument that has a bit too much scratchy bow sound, the MC930 tames it ever so slightly. I also preferred the MC930 on piano but I could go either way.
I think the KM84 was one of the best SDC ever made but it isn't the best tool for every job. That's just reality to me. I think any of those three mics could make very impressive recordings. If you can't make them sound good, then I don't think a different mic will help.
OK, rant over...
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Feb 20, 2019 12:51:12 GMT -6
mcirish - I generally won't head to a SDC for violin. So that's a good tip on the MC930. I'll have to give those a try sometime. I found I didn't like them as well as the 84's for drum overs and Ac Gtrs, etc. and always shied away from them.
Re: 84's on Vln's, etc. : I have been on countless orchestral dates where the section mics for individual stands on Vln's and Vla's (up overhead of the instruments, but not "room" far away - maybe 3-4' over the players heads) was KM84's and they sounded fantastic in that situation. Of course, from my perspective, those mics rarely get used unless you have a balance problem or need to bring out an internal line (like a harmony note on Vln2, etc.). Still, they are successful and in wide use for orchestral scoring sessions. Just a random note....
Oh, and I 100% agree with your 012 assessments. If someone mainly close mics and needs and 84 - that's where I'd point them.
|
|
|
Post by avgatzeblouz on Feb 20, 2019 13:06:54 GMT -6
I know we all repeat ourselves constantly on forums, so I will join in. I have spent a lot of quality time on the last album project with three different SDC mics. KM84, MC-012 (modded), MC930. Each are great in their own way. If you want to close mic a guitar or mandolin, it's a toss-up between the KM84 and the MC012. Dr Bill is right. They could be interchangeable. Seriously. I have them both on every track of the last album I worked on (still mixing) and I could switch between channels and I know you won't be able to guess where the cuts are on a consistent basis, much less tell me which is which. So for a close mic on a guitar, get a MC012 and mod it for a couple bucks, if you can't afford a KM84. You won't be missing anything. Now, if you want to pull the mic back a couple feet, they are no longer the same. The KM84 has a very even response when off-axis. The MC012 is not bad in that situation but it isn't the same. Now another thought. The KM84 is not going to be the right mic all the time. Blasphemy... The MC930 is way better on bowed string instruments and upright bass IMO. I did a shootout with all three on violin and it wasn't close. The KM84 and MC012 have a wonderful clarity due to the slightest upper mid boost. The MC930 has none of that. So, for an instrument that has a bit too much scratchy bow sound, the MC930 tames it ever so slightly. I also preferred the MC930 on piano but I could go either way. I think the KM84 was one of the best SDC ever made but it isn't the best tool for every job. That's just reality to me. I think any of those three mics could make very impressive recordings. If you can't make them sound good, then I don't think a different mic will help. OK, rant over... For the MC012, you mean the Joly mod ?
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Feb 20, 2019 13:27:40 GMT -6
That's what I used a few years back on that Joly 012/KM84 shootout where I randomly intercut back and forth 13 or 14 times between his 012 and one of my KM84's. He actually had a contest and gave away a pair of those to whoever got the closest answers on where the edits were. The only guys that got even remotely close were a couple guys who put a scope on the audio file, who could see the extreme LF bloomout on the 012 - and even then, they missed a few of the edits between the two. Everyone else was just guessing randomly.
For me and the guitarist who played the parts, sitting in the CRM, right after the take and edits..... Our perspective on the 84 vs Joly 012 was that they were identical. We couldn't hear any edits. Actually, I think I could hear 1 or 2 of the edits after I studied it for quite awhile.
My take again is - if you want a super inexpensive KM84 and you close mic only - get a Joly or other modded 012. Way cheaper than the WA84 - and significantly closer in sound.
|
|
|
Post by lpedrum on Feb 20, 2019 13:42:08 GMT -6
That's what I used a few years back on that Joly 012/KM84 shootout where I randomly intercut back and forth 13 or 14 times between his 012 and one of my KM84's. He actually had a contest and gave away a pair of those to whoever got the closest answers on where the edits were. The only guys that got even remotely close were a couple guys who put a scope on the audio file, who could see the extreme LF bloomout on the 012 - and even then, they missed a few of the edits between the two. Everyone else was just guessing randomly. For me and the guitarist who played the parts, sitting in the CRM, right after the take and edits..... Our perspective on the 84 vs Joly 012 was that they were identical. We couldn't hear any edits. Actually, I think I could hear 1 or 2 of the edits after I studied it for quite awhile. My take again is - if you want a super inexpensive KM84 and you close mic only - get a Joly or other modded 012. Way cheaper than the WA84 - and significantly closer in sound. Can you provide any link to mods? Are you talking DIY or sending it off to someone? What's getting modded, the transformer? I'm firmly in the category of needing to close mic acoustic guitar often. I have an AT 4021 that's flat and super quiet--great for fingerpickers who don't provide much volume. And I have a pair of Josephsons when I need something to really cut. But I really miss not having an KM84 when recording in my own studio.
|
|
|
Post by lpedrum on Feb 20, 2019 13:46:49 GMT -6
I know we all repeat ourselves constantly on forums, so I will join in. I have spent a lot of quality time on the last album project with three different SDC mics. KM84, MC-012 (modded), MC930. Each are great in their own way. If you want to close mic a guitar or mandolin, it's a toss-up between the KM84 and the MC012. Dr Bill is right. They could be interchangeable. Seriously. I have them both on every track of the last album I worked on (still mixing) and I could switch between channels and I know you won't be able to guess where the cuts are on a consistent basis, much less tell me which is which. So for a close mic on a guitar, get a MC012 and mod it for a couple bucks, if you can't afford a KM84. You won't be missing anything. Now, if you want to pull the mic back a couple feet, they are no longer the same. The KM84 has a very even response when off-axis. The MC012 is not bad in that situation but it isn't the same. Now another thought. The KM84 is not going to be the right mic all the time. Blasphemy... The MC930 is way better on bowed string instruments and upright bass IMO. I did a shootout with all three on violin and it wasn't close. The KM84 and MC012 have a wonderful clarity due to the slightest upper mid boost. The MC930 has none of that. So, for an instrument that has a bit too much scratchy bow sound, the MC930 tames it ever so slightly. I also preferred the MC930 on piano but I could go either way. I think the KM84 was one of the best SDC ever made but it isn't the best tool for every job. That's just reality to me. I think any of those three mics could make very impressive recordings. If you can't make them sound good, then I don't think a different mic will help. OK, rant over... For the MC012, you mean the Joly mod ? According to THIS, Michael Joly is no longer in the mic modding business.
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Feb 20, 2019 13:50:35 GMT -6
Sorry - Michael Joly is no longer doing his mods anymore. He's closed the business about 6 months ago. IMO, he was THE guy to go to for the Oktava mods. That was actually the name of his business : Oktavamod. There is a guy named Bill Sitler who kinda piggybacked off of Michael's pioneering on the Oktava line. I have NO IDEA if his mods are the same or as good, but it looks like he still does them from what I can tell : www.billsrecording.comBTW, there's very clean Joly modded 012 with box and extra capsule (probably omni) for $350 on Ebay right now. If you need one, I'd jump on it! BTW, I believe the mod is for some specially sourced and tested caps only I believe. No transformer swap for sure.
|
|
|
Post by lpedrum on Feb 20, 2019 13:56:15 GMT -6
Sorry - Michael Joly is no longer doing his mods anymore. He's closed the business about 6 months ago. IMO, he was THE guy to go to for the Oktava mods. That was actually the name of his business : Oktavamod. There is a guy named Bill Sitler who kinda piggybacked off of Michael's pioneering on the Oktava line. I have NO IDEA if his mods are the same or as good, but it looks like he still does them from what I can tell : www.billsrecording.comBTW, there's very clean Joly modded 012 with box and extra capsule (probably omni) for $350 on Ebay right now. If you need one, I'd jump on it! BTW, I believe the mod is for some specially sourced and tested caps only I believe. No transformer swap for sure. Thanks much Bill!
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Feb 20, 2019 14:01:20 GMT -6
You bet. BTW, looks like he has kits available too for the mod - just in case you already have an 012. Personally, I'd still go for the used Joly one on eBay.
|
|
|
Post by mcirish on Feb 20, 2019 14:16:29 GMT -6
The mods are not that difficult at all, if you have some soldering skills. The main thing is replacing some of the caps and some HiZ resistors. There is no transformer. The circuit is super simple and almost looks wrong in the way they drive the output. Strange design but it works. The capsule stays stock. It accounts for 80-90% of the sound anyway IMO. Most of the mods also say to replace the FET. I'm not convinced it needs replacing and the mics were biased for a particular FET so just leave it. It is super important to do clean work and remove any flux in the HiZ areas; around the 1G resistors and the input cap. If you don't clean well, the mic can be a little noisy. Honestly, I believe the newer ones probably have better components and might not gain much from the mods. It seems like they were not very consistent in materials at some points so it is good to have a look at the caps at least. You can find MC-012 mics for around $100 used. Double check to make sure they are not the fake Chinese ones before ordering, if getting used ones. I bought 10 back around 2000 and selected the best four and kept them. I donated 2 to a church (I'd love to get them back) and two I kept but didn't use for years because they were inexpensive. I had the smug attitude that Oktava mics were cheap, of dubious build quality (at times) so they must be crap. I also had no prior knowledge of how sensitive SDC are to wind and plossives, so I thought mine must be bad. Doh! I got my first wake-up call with a modded MK319. Blew me away for the ridiculous price I paid for it. It's the opposite of the overly bright and harsh mics flooding the market. So, I decided to try the MC-012 after I did some mods. Couldn't believe my ears on a close mic'd guitar. Got some KM84s and did a lot of tests. In many cases, I chose to use the KM84, not because it sounded any better (or different) but because it had more bragging rights. i know... stupid pride. Here are some instructions. Oktava Mod Instructions
Sorry for the aside. Now back to talking about the Warm WA-84 and of course the KM84.
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Feb 20, 2019 15:03:28 GMT -6
drbill mcirish I'm glad the message about the MC930 is getting through. Seriously underrated microphone I've come to dearly love.
|
|
|
Post by mcirish on Feb 20, 2019 15:34:30 GMT -6
The MC930 is a wonderfully smooth SDC. No odd peaks or harshness. It has very high output and is quiet. I have nothing bad to say about it. It's a great mic at a very affordable price.
|
|
kcatthedog
Temp
Super Helpful Dude
Posts: 15,178
Member is Online
|
Post by kcatthedog on Feb 20, 2019 16:23:05 GMT -6
Interesting that the closest mike to a real 84 is actually a mike that has a complete different schematic plus mods but then can’t match the real 84 off axis?
Wonder is that is more a function of the cap depth and placement in the body?
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Feb 20, 2019 16:26:34 GMT -6
Interesting that the closest mike to a real 84 is actually a mike that has a complete different schematic plus mods but then can’t match the real 84 off axis? Wonder is that is more a function of the cap depth and placement in the body? I find your speculation intriguing.
|
|
kcatthedog
Temp
Super Helpful Dude
Posts: 15,178
Member is Online
|
Post by kcatthedog on Feb 20, 2019 16:36:24 GMT -6
Ah remember a page back when I was shot down for misidentifying the octavamod as an 84 clone
|
|
kcatthedog
Temp
Super Helpful Dude
Posts: 15,178
Member is Online
|
Post by kcatthedog on Feb 20, 2019 16:38:44 GMT -6
|
|
kcatthedog
Temp
Super Helpful Dude
Posts: 15,178
Member is Online
|
Post by kcatthedog on Feb 20, 2019 17:22:26 GMT -6
Ps after all my bitching and moaning about landed cdn prices, the cdn border guard asked me how long I’d been in the states while looking atcmy passport, driver’s license and birth certificate, I said 15 minutes, anything to declare, 2 microphones, he asked the value so I looked at the bill and told him, he looked thoughtful and said have a nice day sir and closed his window so I drove home : sweet!
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,987
|
Post by ericn on Feb 20, 2019 17:25:36 GMT -6
Interesting that the closest mike to a real 84 is actually a mike that has a complete different schematic plus mods but then can’t match the real 84 off axis? Wonder is that is more a function of the cap depth and placement in the body? A mixture of many, many things, if it were easy somebody would have figured out how to duplicate it already.
|
|