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Warm WA-84
Feb 19, 2019 16:42:51 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Mister Chase on Feb 19, 2019 16:42:51 GMT -6
I had one of those Avantones once and it wasn't bad. Some qc issues back then though.
I'd be interested in km84s. They should just reissue them. I mean they were last in production in the early 90s. Cumon ppl. Just do it.
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Post by drbill on Feb 19, 2019 16:44:15 GMT -6
To me the better question is how much do you need to pay to get a very good and useable sdc and is the Warm in that group and I think the answer is yes.! IMO, the KM84 is one of the last horizons of KILLER vintage mics at reasonable used prices. You seem to always be pushing towards the cheapest thing that's decent and readily available, but IMO, after buying countless mics over my lifetime, I have realized that for me, it's better to buy right the first time, and keep it forever. And that's what an KM is for me. Putting an "84" on a mic body means nothing in reality. Best of luck with your WA's.
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Warm WA-84
Feb 19, 2019 17:15:05 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by kcatthedog on Feb 19, 2019 17:15:05 GMT -6
It’s all relative, a good pair of used 84’s, fixed up with new caps, up here in Canada would set me back $3,500 cdn plus easily. I think you are misinterpreting me ,you apparently see the Warm products as cheap? I see them as good value, not best, but good. I guess sonic prudency is like beauty: in the eye of the beholder ? I just don’t believe, more expensive, always means, always better.
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Post by M57 on Feb 19, 2019 17:40:07 GMT -6
To me the better question is how much do you need to pay to get a very good and useable sdc and is the Warm in that group and I think the answer is yes.! IMO, the KM84 is one of the last horizons of KILLER vintage mics at reasonable used prices. You seem to always be pushing towards the cheapest thing that's decent and readily available, but IMO, after buying countless mics over my lifetime, I have realized that for me, it's better to buy right the first time, and keep it forever. And that's what an KM is for me. Putting an "84" on a mic body means nothing in reality. Best of luck with your WA's. I do the very best I can to be in the "buy right the first time, and keep it forever" camp. When the wife and I go furniture or appliance shopping, that's our mantra - and it's no different here. But everyone has a budget, and we pass on the $10,000 hand knotted rug with a knot count that also has too many zeros. In this case, I can't (or don't want to) afford the "best" - I want the best I can afford ..and I'm coming around to the opinion that the best I can afford is probably not a "clone." Yes, the jury is out on the WA-84, and honestly, I don't care if it is similar to its namesake, as long as it sounds good. I don't really care to hear a shoot out between the KM and the WA. I want to hear a shootout between the WA-84 and an AKG C 451 B, or a WA-84 and (insert <$1000 mic name here). All that said, what's really frustrating about this process for me is that I've come to the realization that what I really want is the right mic for the job. My NT-5's with Joly caps are servicable, but I'd like better. In order of importance, I want a stereo pair for my piano, maybe acoustic guitar, then the odd instrument that walks in the door - usually more on the orchestral side, like a cello, oboe, etc, and I'm pretty confident it's gotta be an SDC. I don't doubt that there is no such animal in my price range, but one can hope given the explosion of affordable alternatives that have been hitting the market (Warm, KT, 3U, Stam, even Slate etc.) over the last few years.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 19, 2019 18:07:01 GMT -6
It’s all relative, a good pair of used 84’s, fixed up with new caps, up here in Canada would set me back $3,500 cdn plus easily. I think you are misinterpreting me ,you apparently see the Warm products as cheap? I see them as good value, not best, but good. I guess sonic prudency is like beauty: in the eye of the beholder ? I just don’t believe, more expensive, always means, always better. Well, aren't ALL prices inflated by the same amount in Canada? Isn't it an exchange rate + tax thing? How much is a vintage U87? Or a new one, for that matter?
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 19, 2019 18:15:31 GMT -6
IMO, the KM84 is one of the last horizons of KILLER vintage mics at reasonable used prices. You seem to always be pushing towards the cheapest thing that's decent and readily available, but IMO, after buying countless mics over my lifetime, I have realized that for me, it's better to buy right the first time, and keep it forever. And that's what an KM is for me. Putting an "84" on a mic body means nothing in reality. Best of luck with your WA's. I do the very best I can to be in the "buy right the first time, and keep it forever" camp. When the wife and I go furniture or appliance shopping, that's our mantra - and it's no different here. But everyone has a budget, and we pass on the $10,000 hand knotted rug with a knot count that also has too many zeros. In this case, I can't (or don't want to) afford the "best" - I want the best I can afford ..and I'm coming around to the opinion that the best I can afford is probably not a "clone." Yes, the jury is out on the WA-84, and honestly, I don't care if it is similar to its namesake, as long as it sounds good. I don't really care to hear a shoot out between the KM and the WA. I want to hear a shootout between the WA-84 and an AKG C 451 B, or a WA-84 and (insert <$1000 mic name here). All that said, what's really frustrating about this process for me is that I've come to the realization that what I really want is the right mic for the job. My NT-5's with Joly caps are servicable, but I'd like better. In order of importance, I want a stereo pair for my piano, maybe acoustic guitar, then the odd instrument that walks in the door - usually more on the orchestral side, like a cello, oboe, etc, and I'm pretty confident it's gotta be an LDC. I don't doubt that there is no such animal in my price range, but one can hope given the explosion of affordable alternatives that have been hitting the market (Warm, KT, 3U, Stam, even Slate etc.) over the last few years. Well, I got my 84 for just under $1000. So that would fit your criteria.
How much money have you spent on "hopes" just to replace them with other "hopes"?
I'll admit to being interested in the WA84, but I don't have the disposable cash to throw into something just to be able to tell people that it doesn't really work for what I need out of my real one. OTOH I might be surprised - but I'm not as willing to gamble on it as I used to be.
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Warm WA-84
Feb 19, 2019 18:20:52 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by kcatthedog on Feb 19, 2019 18:20:52 GMT -6
I am making my same proportional value argument, if two products are 1-200% different in price. Is the more expensive product sonically that much better too ? Often the answer is no or the price difference is worth it to some not all.
I don’t disagree with dr bill’s main point and if I was re-buying everything now, I probably would just buy very very good name brand stuff.
But right now, I am paying off some debt and getting some decent sdc that for in my spend rather than pay down budget.
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Post by drbill on Feb 19, 2019 18:23:36 GMT -6
IMO, the KM84 is one of the last horizons of KILLER vintage mics at reasonable used prices. You seem to always be pushing towards the cheapest thing that's decent and readily available, but IMO, after buying countless mics over my lifetime, I have realized that for me, it's better to buy right the first time, and keep it forever. And that's what an KM is for me. Putting an "84" on a mic body means nothing in reality. Best of luck with your WA's. I do the very best I can to be in the "buy right the first time, and keep it forever" camp. When the wife and I go furniture or appliance shopping, that's our mantra - and it's no different here. But everyone has a budget, and we pass on the $10,000 hand knotted rug with a knot count that also has too many zeros. In this case, I can't (or don't want to) afford the "best" - I want the best I can afford ..and I'm coming around to the opinion that the best I can afford is probably not a "clone." Yes, the jury is out on the WA-84, and honestly, I don't care if it is similar to its namesake, as long as it sounds good. I don't really care to hear a shoot out between the KM and the WA. I want to hear a shootout between the WA-84 and an AKG C 451 B, or a WA-84 and (insert <$1000 mic name here). All that said, what's really frustrating about this process for me is that I've come to the realization that what I really want is the right mic for the job. My NT-5's with Joly caps are servicable, but I'd like better. In order of importance, I want a stereo pair for my piano, maybe acoustic guitar, then the odd instrument that walks in the door - usually more on the orchestral side, like a cello, oboe, etc, and I'm pretty confident it's gotta be an SDC. I don't doubt that there is no such animal in my price range, but one can hope given the explosion of affordable alternatives that have been hitting the market (Warm, KT, 3U, Stam, even Slate etc.) over the last few years. C451E or EB's are still a mega bargain IMO. Brighter than 84's by quite a bit, but cheaper than the WA84's. Certainly a classic, and a must have for most studio's. From the clipilator clips, I'd guess they are a bit brighter than the WA's. You can buy them all day long for $280-375 USD. The CK22 Omni caps are spectacular also, and don't have the HF rise that the standard cardiod CK1 caps have. These mics fly so far below the radar they are literally a steal - IF - you need a brighter SDC. (BTW, don't get the B version) In the middle of KM84's and C451's (brightness and price-wise) are the Gefell MV692's with M70 caps. LOVE those mics as well. Nickel capsules. To die for. SMOOOOoooth brightness. IMO, they are mid-way bright between the 451/84 and have a decidedly neumann-esque sound. They have the advantage of removable caps which can go with various versions of SDC (actually, almost a mid-DC) and LDC as well - the venerable M71 / UM70 which is one of my all time favorites, and many prefer it to a U87 - it's in the same camp. A workhorse mic with so many options its crazy. They (the 692/M70 SDC) can be had for right about the same price as a WA84 - $400-450 USD and they are absolutely a "liftetime" mic for me - as long as I can also have the LDC's as well. (Which I do. I have 7 of those mics). Again, a below the radar bargain, although it's a bit harder to find them these days. Harder than a C451E/EB. That said, when it comes to "vintage" prices, the KM84 will always hold it's value, and again, IMO no matter what country you are in, it's a bargain. That's my perspective.
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Warm WA-84
Feb 19, 2019 18:24:27 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by kcatthedog on Feb 19, 2019 18:24:27 GMT -6
ps a Neumann 87 ai lists for 4800 and I see one retail at $3800 plus 15% for our taxes.
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Post by lpedrum on Feb 19, 2019 18:29:34 GMT -6
Listened some more and do really like the WM 84s on overheads, especially if you're like me and don't always like to close mic toms. But the main reason I had my fingers crossed on these was the hope that it would do 98% of what a KM 84 does on acoustic guitar. If the Clipalator is any indication it simply doesn't. Does that mean that someone can't make beautiful music with the WM 84s? No. But calling this new mic an 84 almost does it a disservice because it will be forever compared to it. I'm not a mic builder. Why is it so difficult to achieve the pleasing, present, musical midrange that an 84 has? Seriously. I want to know.
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Post by drbill on Feb 19, 2019 18:36:30 GMT -6
But calling this new mic an 84 almost does it a disservice because it will be forever compared to it. Hahaaa! Who do we have to blame for that?? PS - WM? Is that the hybrid grafting of a WA and K M?
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Post by notneeson on Feb 19, 2019 18:38:49 GMT -6
I don't know— it's not like the KM84s in the clipilator sound good. And I love, and am very familiar with KM84s. Just makes these things kinda useless to me. Would like to try the Warms in my own environment.
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Post by indiehouse on Feb 19, 2019 20:30:05 GMT -6
It’s all relative, a good pair of used 84’s, fixed up with new caps, up here in Canada would set me back $3,500 cdn plus easily. I think you are misinterpreting me ,you apparently see the Warm products as cheap? I see them as good value, not best, but good. I guess sonic prudency is like beauty: in the eye of the beholder ? I just don’t believe, more expensive, always means, always better. Why would you assume to invest in new capsules for used mics?
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Post by indiehouse on Feb 19, 2019 20:34:12 GMT -6
What about those Soyuz SDC’s? Are they fairly close in price to the Warm?
I don’t know what it is, but Warm gear just doesn’t do anything for me. I have no real reason for feeling that way. I just have no desire for Warm stuff.
I’m in the KM84 camp. Before long, I’m guessing you’ll be able to find those Warm SDC’s second hand for cheap. I will never lose money on the KM84’s that I have now. They sound great and I have zero desire for any SDC’s, though the thought of trying the Soyuz mics and maybe pocketing the difference does pop in my head from time to time.
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Post by drbill on Feb 19, 2019 21:20:21 GMT -6
It’s all relative, a good pair of used 84’s, fixed up with new caps, up here in Canada would set me back $3,500 cdn plus easily. I think you are misinterpreting me ,you apparently see the Warm products as cheap? I see them as good value, not best, but good. I guess sonic prudency is like beauty: in the eye of the beholder ? I just don’t believe, more expensive, always means, always better. Why would you assume to invest in new capsules for used mics? Agreed. I've bought several used, and never had to do anything too them other than one that had a loose XLR connector inside. I think that needing new caps on used 84's is kind of overblown...
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 19, 2019 22:17:34 GMT -6
The Soyuz 0-13's list for $599. They are absolutely the finest SDC I've ever heard if I don't include the KM84. Now, I've done direct comparisons with a pair of Soyuz 0-13's and a pair of KM84's. Both were great, the Soyuz has considerably more gain and is quieter, but also a bit more high end. It really would be a tossup if I was offered both but had to choose one.
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Post by Mister Chase on Feb 20, 2019 1:29:55 GMT -6
The Soyuz 0-13's list for $599. They are absolutely the finest SDC I've ever heard if I don't include the KM84. Now, I've done direct comparisons with a pair of Soyuz 0-13's and a pair of KM84's. Both were great, the Soyuz has considerably more gain and is quieter, but also a bit more high end. It really would be a tossup if I was offered both but had to choose one. That's quite a compliment to the Soyuz!
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 20, 2019 2:14:18 GMT -6
Needing new caps and or maintenance work is always a possibility with used gear vs buying something new and our friend here has told us what he paid to get his used 84’s where he wanted them to be.
Over the last while when I have looked at used 84, I have seen prices for not particularly clean ones of $9-1000 usd in Europe, so have to be shipped so sound $1500 cdn landed or around that same price on evil bay, so as I said initially I am quickly to my $3,000 mark for mikes that I haven’t even used.
Maybe you guys in the states are lucky with a wider supply of known used mikes. You are also used to shopping with the stronger value usd, I am constantly adding a 20-30% premium onto each dollar purchased , so perhaps see value differently. Ideally, it would be great to try the Neumann and Soyuz, but cdn retailers don’t let us return stuff as easily as major us shops do and or charge a restocking fee and possibly shipping so not so easy to try new before you buy so again lower price and or low to no upkeep up front is appealing to me.
I actually know only 2 people with good used real 84, Sam here and there is a tech here in town with 2: that’s it. Not a lot of oppprtunitty to try before you buy .
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2019 3:00:35 GMT -6
Why would you assume to invest in new capsules for used mics? Agreed. I've bought several used, and never had to do anything too them other than one that had a loose XLR connector inside. I think that needing new caps on used 84's is kind of overblown... The two capsules on my used 84s sound quite different, so it was imperative I ordered new ones if I wanted an accurately matched pair for stereo arrays. But yeah, they both sound great in mono, just different enough to annoy me. I've sold ALL my other mics, I love the KM84s so much. I want this to be a pair for life that I love and cherish, so it's worth it to me to get them as perfect as they can be.
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Post by craigmorris74 on Feb 20, 2019 7:23:05 GMT -6
Ah the wa84 is much much cheaper than the actual 84, line over 200%. The fact that sone above compare the Warm favourably is to me more interesting, is the real 84 worth the difference in price? To some, the answer will be yes, but to likely many others no. But some folks are buying 84 capsules put on this thing. Then that price difference almost goes away. If those Clipalator clips aren't lying, then yes, the 84 is worth the difference. The Warm mic isn't in the ballpark. This actually surprises me because their 87 clone is pretty good.
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Post by thirdeye on Feb 20, 2019 7:52:39 GMT -6
Ah the wa84 is much much cheaper than the actual 84, line over 200%. The fact that sone above compare the Warm favourably is to me more interesting, is the real 84 worth the difference in price? To some, the answer will be yes, but to likely many others no. But some folks are buying 84 capsules put on this thing. Then that price difference almost goes away. If those Clipalator clips aren't lying, then yes, the 84 is worth the difference. The Warm mic isn't in the ballpark. This actually surprises me because their 87 clone is pretty good. I'd like to hear the WA84 with a KM84 capsule for comparison.
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Post by indiehouse on Feb 20, 2019 8:49:37 GMT -6
Ah the wa84 is much much cheaper than the actual 84, line over 200%. The fact that sone above compare the Warm favourably is to me more interesting, is the real 84 worth the difference in price? To some, the answer will be yes, but to likely many others no. But some folks are buying 84 capsules put on this thing. Then that price difference almost goes away. If those Clipalator clips aren't lying, then yes, the 84 is worth the difference. The Warm mic isn't in the ballpark. This actually surprises me because their 87 clone is pretty good. If you are referring to the conversation earlier in this thread about that, then no, he's not putting Neumann capsules in a Warm mic. That would be silly.
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Post by Omicron9 on Feb 20, 2019 9:05:14 GMT -6
IMO, the KM84 is one of the last horizons of KILLER vintage mics at reasonable used prices. You seem to always be pushing towards the cheapest thing that's decent and readily available, but IMO, after buying countless mics over my lifetime, I have realized that for me, it's better to buy right the first time, and keep it forever. And that's what an KM is for me. Putting an "84" on a mic body means nothing in reality. Best of luck with your WA's. I do the very best I can to be in the "buy right the first time, and keep it forever" camp. When the wife and I go furniture or appliance shopping, that's our mantra - and it's no different here. But everyone has a budget, and we pass on the $10,000 hand knotted rug with a knot count that also has too many zeros. In this case, I can't (or don't want to) afford the "best" - I want the best I can afford ..and I'm coming around to the opinion that the best I can afford is probably not a "clone." Yes, the jury is out on the WA-84, and honestly, I don't care if it is similar to its namesake, as long as it sounds good. I don't really care to hear a shoot out between the KM and the WA. I want to hear a shootout between the WA-84 and an AKG C 451 B, or a WA-84 and (insert <$1000 mic name here). All that said, what's really frustrating about this process for me is that I've come to the realization that what I really want is the right mic for the job. My NT-5's with Joly caps are servicable, but I'd like better. In order of importance, I want a stereo pair for my piano, maybe acoustic guitar, then the odd instrument that walks in the door - usually more on the orchestral side, like a cello, oboe, etc, and I'm pretty confident it's gotta be an SDC. I don't doubt that there is no such animal in my price range, but one can hope given the explosion of affordable alternatives that have been hitting the market (Warm, KT, 3U, Stam, even Slate etc.) over the last few years. You may want to check out an AKG C-460-B. Very neutral, and excellent for the instruments you describe. Another to check out is the Shure KSM-141. Highly underrated. Neither of these are referenced as KM-84 replacements; only as excellent SDCs that are quite versatile and not hyped. -09
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Feb 20, 2019 9:31:32 GMT -6
Why would you assume to invest in new capsules for used mics? Agreed. I've bought several used, and never had to do anything too them other than one that had a loose XLR connector inside. I think that needing new caps on used 84's is kind of overblown... So many beat up KM84’s out there, have to remember these were the utility mics for so long that unless you are lucky or no the source trying to match a pair is getting harder and harder. So the best advice is to budget for new capsules and who knows you might get lucky. Funny enough I know a couple of guys who have pretty much re coupes the costs of new capsules by selling their old ones one at a time on eBay and keeping their mouths shut.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2019 9:35:43 GMT -6
Yes, that's my intention too. Only people who read this forum would know that though! Actually, I was gonna put the old ones up at half the price of the new ones, so I'd only end up getting one new cap for free. But hoping this new Warm will suddenly have lots of people chasing old KK84s...
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