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Post by EmRR on Feb 18, 2019 12:47:38 GMT -6
Almost none of what I said was about the KM140. FWIW. None of the rest had anything to do with the KM84 either....except the bit about the KM84's! : ) It was in direct response to a bit about Schoeps and others.... Well, it was the only KM series mic mentioned in the post.
Btw I agree that some of the Schoeps are "sleeper classics". I've been aware of those for a long time, thanks to Dan Alexander, who was a big proponent.
I really don't have any experience with the Sennheiser MKHs. The oddball powering made them somewhat less interesting for a long time. I remember when one of then was in a hock shop that Dan sometimes used for financing back in the early days - I think it was about $150 and didn't sell for a long time. Shoulda grabbed it but I didn't know any better back then. But there was a lot of stuff I should have grabbed back then - hindsight is 20-20!
Yeah there are MKH with T power, like Schoeps, but the modern (34 years?) line is all P48. There's Wrecking Crew pictures with MKH mics as the OH in the late 1960's. I did mention the KM131 which I really like, but I'm oddball in also liking omni's more than cardioid SDC's many times. Most people will give a blank stare about the KM131 as well.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 18, 2019 12:51:56 GMT -6
Well, it was the only KM series mic mentioned in the post.
Btw I agree that some of the Schoeps are "sleeper classics". I've been aware of those for a long time, thanks to Dan Alexander, who was a big proponent.
I really don't have any experience with the Sennheiser MKHs. The oddball powering made them somewhat less interesting for a long time. I remember when one of then was in a hock shop that Dan sometimes used for financing back in the early days - I think it was about $150 and didn't sell for a long time. Shoulda grabbed it but I didn't know any better back then. But there was a lot of stuff I should have grabbed back then - hindsight is 20-20!
Yeah there are MKH with T power, like Schoeps, but the modern (34 years?) line is all P48. There's Wrecking Crew pictures with MKH mics as the OH in the late 1960's. I did mention the KM131 which I really like, but I'm oddball in also liking omni's more than cardioid SDC's many times. Most people will give a blank stare about the KM131 as well. <chuckle>
Yeah, that Sennheiser was around 40 years ago, give or take. I'm not sure if the modern line is ALL P48 - T power is still used in some location film audio. (IIRC). And some location recorders that use phantom are 24 or even 12 volts.
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Post by lpedrum on Feb 19, 2019 12:32:43 GMT -6
Zen Pro Audio has the WA-84 in their CLIPALATOR head to head with a KM 84. On a quick listen it sounds good, but still not as focused as the KM 84 on acoustic guitar. It certainly seems to hold its own on overheads though. I'm curious to hear what others think.
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Post by sirthought on Feb 19, 2019 12:44:08 GMT -6
Impressive really. I thought the acoustic was the only thing that really had much of a variance. Just a tad more open than the Neumann, and some people may like that. The piano sounded really similar to my ears, but I don't record a real piano ever, so others may disagree.
Drums were really similar to me. I don't know how accurate this clip thing is, but these sound really close.
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Post by drbill on Feb 19, 2019 13:01:34 GMT -6
Did a cursory listen. Not scientific, and I didn't download the files.
I would not call the WA84 a KM84. IMO the sound was quite different. I'd call the Oktava 012 closer to an 84 than the WA. I'm not saying it's not a decent mic - just that it's not a KM84. At least from the previous mentioned clips. Hard to really know without having both in your hands on a session. Both top and bottom are significantly different. Listening on Grace DA and JBL 708P's. I only listened to the Acoustic Gtr, Piano and Drums.
The clipilator is an interesting concept, but micing a speaker of pre-recorded files is a compromise a best. It IS consistent though.
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Post by sirthought on Feb 19, 2019 13:04:01 GMT -6
I don't know what you are hearing that is so different. They seemed very close.
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Post by ragan on Feb 19, 2019 13:06:08 GMT -6
Did a cursory listen. Not scientific, and I didn't download the files. I would not call the WA84 a KM84. IMO the sound was quite different. I'd call the Oktava 012 closer to an 84 than the WA. I'm not saying it's not a decent mic - just that it's not a KM84. At least from the previous mentioned clips. Hard to really know without having both in your hands on a session. Both top and bottom are significantly different. Listening on Grace DA and JBL 708P's. I only listened to the Acoustic Gtr, Piano and Drums. The clipilator is an interesting concept, but micing a speaker of pre-recorded files is a compromise a best. It IS consistent though. Wait...speaker of pre-recorded files?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2019 13:07:07 GMT -6
Sounded quite different to me too. Crookwood conversion into ATCs.
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Post by drbill on Feb 19, 2019 13:13:11 GMT -6
I don't know what you are hearing that is so different. They seemed very close. "Close" is always in the ear of the beholder. To some, they would be light years different. To others indistinguishable. What are you monitoring on? To me, what I look for from an 84 was not present in the WA mic. They sounded - sorry, forgive me for lack of a better term - more "Chinese" to me. I think we all know what that means, and it's not to deride Chinese built mics. But it's a phrase to describe what is currently attributed to a lot of Chinese built mics. i.e : Zingier up top. I'll again note that the clipilator paradigm of judging mics is compromised at best. But IME, both of the mics are going to show MORE of their personality "in person" than they will in the clipilator, and I'd hazard a guess that this would make me even less interested in the WA's "in person". I'm just guessing though, as all these clips are just "indicators" rather than real evaluations. That's my $0.02, and worth every penny. If the WA mic interests you, get it in person -- and put up against a real KM84 for comparison if you're looking for a true KM84 replacement. I'd also suggest listening to a good 012 if a replacement is what your'e after. If you're just looking for a good SDC mic, then judge them on their own merits to see if they meet your needs.
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Post by drbill on Feb 19, 2019 13:14:06 GMT -6
Did a cursory listen. Not scientific, and I didn't download the files. I would not call the WA84 a KM84. IMO the sound was quite different. I'd call the Oktava 012 closer to an 84 than the WA. I'm not saying it's not a decent mic - just that it's not a KM84. At least from the previous mentioned clips. Hard to really know without having both in your hands on a session. Both top and bottom are significantly different. Listening on Grace DA and JBL 708P's. I only listened to the Acoustic Gtr, Piano and Drums. The clipilator is an interesting concept, but micing a speaker of pre-recorded files is a compromise a best. It IS consistent though. Wait...speaker of pre-recorded files? That's how the clipilator works from my best of my understanding. It's how they do identical clips years apart.
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Post by ragan on Feb 19, 2019 13:18:12 GMT -6
Wait...speaker of pre-recorded files? That's how the clipilator works from my best of my understanding. It's how they do identical clips years apart. Hmm. I don't think that's right? There's a run down on how they mic things and mark distances and stuff right below the player. Also, they have many different sessions of stuff. The songs/performers change with the rounds. They just always include some of the same reference mics (like the 414b_ULS). I dunno though, what have you seen that suggested they're mic'ing a speaker?
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Post by drbill on Feb 19, 2019 13:19:11 GMT -6
That's how the clipilator works from my best of my understanding. It's how they do identical clips years apart. Hmm. I don't think that's right? There's a run down on how they mic things and mark distances and stuff right below the player. Also, they have many different sessions of stuff. The songs/performers change with the rounds. They just always include some of the same reference mics (like the 414b_ULS). I dunno though, what have you seen that suggested mic'ing a speaker? That was my understanding in the past. However - I'm willing to be wrong. I don't think they could pull players back in with identical instruments, strings, heads, tuning, performances, etc. - years apart. Do you? There was quite a discussion about this in the past. Including the benefits and the problems of how to do comparisons of mics and other gear over time, with the fairest way to do things.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 19, 2019 13:39:48 GMT -6
Maybe my ears are shot, but the WA-84 felt darker to me and also a little bloated/cloudy in the low mids. The KM84 felt leaner, more defined, and present.
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Post by ragan on Feb 19, 2019 13:43:10 GMT -6
Hmm. I don't think that's right? There's a run down on how they mic things and mark distances and stuff right below the player. Also, they have many different sessions of stuff. The songs/performers change with the rounds. They just always include some of the same reference mics (like the 414b_ULS). I dunno though, what have you seen that suggested mic'ing a speaker? That was my understanding in the past. However - I'm willing to be wrong. I don't think they could pull players back in with identical instruments, strings, heads, tuning, performances, etc. - years apart. Do you? There was quite a discussion about this in the past. Including the benefits and the problems of how to do comparisons of mics and other gear over time, with the fairest way to do things. Yeah I don't know for sure. But when they have multi-mic'd drum kits, or any of it for that matter, it sure doesn't sound like a speaker. They talk about using the drum dial thing to make sure all heads are the same tension and whatnot. My understanding has been that they do sessions. And they're labeled in the Clipalator. Like they get a pile of stuff they want to do examples of and then do a round of tracking. So you'll see the same song, but like 10 or 12 different 'rounds' of it with various gear tested in the Clipalator. Attachments:
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Post by drbill on Feb 19, 2019 13:53:18 GMT -6
? ? ?
Don't know. Maybe they have changed the way they are doing things. I just remember the controversy, discussion and efforts to make the clipilator "fair" in it's comparisons. Back in the day.
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Warm WA-84
Feb 19, 2019 14:20:04 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by reddirt on Feb 19, 2019 14:20:04 GMT -6
Sitting back watching all the speculation they have attracted like they may be God's gift - no one here has used them yet so it's all buts, ifs and maybes - save the energy guys all will be properly revealed soon enough😋.
Cheers, Ross
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Post by drbill on Feb 19, 2019 14:23:44 GMT -6
Where's the fun in that???
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Post by craigmorris74 on Feb 19, 2019 14:55:32 GMT -6
If the Clipalator is a remotely accurate comparison, the WA-84 sounds dead compared to the KM-84. The KM-84 has a much more detailed, lively midrange, and the sound of the room is much clearer. I was expecting more from the Warm mic, but I'd say it just sounds like a cheaper mic. CM
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Warm WA-84
Feb 19, 2019 15:17:22 GMT -6
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 19, 2019 15:17:22 GMT -6
Ah the wa84 is much much cheaper than the actual 84, line over 200%.
The fact that sone above compare the Warm favourably is to me more interesting, is the real 84 worth the difference in price?
To some, the answer will be yes, but to likely many others no.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 19, 2019 15:24:00 GMT -6
Ah the wa84 is much much cheaper than the actual 84, line over 200%. The fact that sone above compare the Warm favourably is to me more interesting, is the real 84 worth the difference in price? To some, the answer will be yes, but to likely many others no. Is the Warm going to be 400% better than the MXL V67N? www.zzounds.com/item--MXLV67N
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Post by drbill on Feb 19, 2019 15:35:45 GMT -6
Ah the wa84 is much much cheaper than the actual 84, line over 200%. The fact that sone above compare the Warm favourably is to me more interesting, is the real 84 worth the difference in price? To some, the answer will be yes, but to likely many others no. Is the Warm going to be 400% better than the MXL V67N? www.zzounds.com/item--MXLV67NYup. If price is your only arbiter of what to buy, then by all means, get the MXL.
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Warm WA-84
Feb 19, 2019 15:57:10 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by kcatthedog on Feb 19, 2019 15:57:10 GMT -6
Of course, a real 84 should sound best but many people won’t care and won’t pay the premium for real 84’s. To me the better question is how much do you need to pay to get a very good and useable sdc and is the Warm in that group and I think the answer is yes. So, to me it represents good value and ironically a real 84 doesn’t, as it requires a huge cost premium , but to others, of course, they feel the opposite , that the real 84 is an investment they value, to each their own. At least those here, who value the real 84, base their opinions on their direct experience, which I respect: how many of us have actually used the wa84: oh ya, none ! I wouldn’t buy an interface after listening to zen clips, so mike comparisons are interesting but I’d much rather have the real experience: pick up my wa84’s tomorrow. I just wanted sdc’s that sounded better than my octavamods. I think I will be very happy with the wa84. One day, would I like to try real 84s, of course!
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Post by stormymondays on Feb 19, 2019 16:10:21 GMT -6
To me the better question is how much do you need to pay to get a very good and useable sdc and is the Warm in that group and I think the answer is yes. I'd be happy to make records with the Avantone SDC which costs about $100. I liked it better than a Warbler (which I sold) and as much as my Joly modded Oktava! If you want pure value, no need to get the Warm offering at 4x the price. By the way, even though I have a pair of KM84 now, I'm not selling my Oktavas or the lowly Avantone!
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ericn
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Warm WA-84
Feb 19, 2019 16:12:24 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ericn on Feb 19, 2019 16:12:24 GMT -6
Yeah there are MKH with T power, like Schoeps, but the modern (34 years?) line is all P48. There's Wrecking Crew pictures with MKH mics as the OH in the late 1960's. I did mention the KM131 which I really like, but I'm oddball in also liking omni's more than cardioid SDC's many times. Most people will give a blank stare about the KM131 as well. <chuckle>
Yeah, that Sennheiser was around 40 years ago, give or take. I'm not sure if the monern line is ALL P48 - T power is still used in some location film audio. (IIRC). And some location recorders that use phantom are 24 or even 12 volts.
They have been all ap48 for over 20 years now.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 19, 2019 16:30:34 GMT -6
I think the best point is use those tools you appreciate and hopefully can afford.
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