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Post by drbill on Feb 20, 2019 17:35:01 GMT -6
Ps after all my bitching and moaning about landed cdn prices, the cdn border guard asked me how long I’d been in the states while looking atcmy passport, driver’s license and birth certificate, I said 15 minutes, anything to declare, 2 microphones, he asked the value so I looked at the bill and told him, he looked thoughtful and said have a nice day sir and closed his window so I drove home : sweet! Sweet! Now you can add "mic smuggler" to your CV!!! Congrats! And enjoy!!
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Post by drbill on Feb 20, 2019 17:35:38 GMT -6
Interesting that the closest mike to a real 84 is actually a mike that has a complete different schematic plus mods but then can’t match the real 84 off axis? Wonder is that is more a function of the cap depth and placement in the body? A mixture of many, many things, if it were easy somebody would have figured out how to duplicate it already. Honest? I'd say it was dumb luck.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 20, 2019 17:51:38 GMT -6
Finally, I’ve found my calling !
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Post by ericn on Feb 20, 2019 17:58:30 GMT -6
A mixture of many, many things, if it were easy somebody would have figured out how to duplicate it already. Honest? I'd say it was dumb luck. Originaly ? Probably but to reverse engineer it many factors.
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Post by Mister Chase on Feb 20, 2019 18:16:57 GMT -6
Indeed. Some things are stumbled upon and are serendipitous which is arrived at with much effort. Copying is probably even more difficult.
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Post by Mister Chase on Feb 20, 2019 18:18:59 GMT -6
Ps after all my bitching and moaning about landed cdn prices, the cdn border guard asked me how long I’d been in the states while looking atcmy passport, driver’s license and birth certificate, I said 15 minutes, anything to declare, 2 microphones, he asked the value so I looked at the bill and told him, he looked thoughtful and said have a nice day sir and closed his window so I drove home : sweet! Whew! No more shovin' mic's up the ole poop chute! I was starting to worry about how you were going to get that U67 reissue back over the border!
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Post by notneeson on Feb 20, 2019 18:20:15 GMT -6
And also, these things become reference points for what good sound even is. That kind of learned response is very hard to shake.
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Post by matt@IAA on Feb 20, 2019 18:25:16 GMT -6
Couple of thoughts. My first job out of school was focused on reverse engineering of some high tech turbomachinery equipment, for what it’s worth.
Reverse engineering and copying aren’t the same thing. One takes a measure of understanding.
If you match the material, geometry and methods...you’ll get the same thing.
If it can be heard, it can be tested. If it can be tested, it can be reverse engineered.
Sometimes close enough, isn’t. Sometimes it is.
Ain’t no such thing as magic.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 20, 2019 18:30:32 GMT -6
And also, these things become reference points for what good sound even is. That kind of learned response is very hard to shake. I have no issue with that but wasn’t expecting to feel down about my new mikes even before I picked them up; boo boo Newsflash m: I had realized that wa84 weren’t Neumann 84s. I know I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but that one hadn’t got by me !
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Post by notneeson on Feb 20, 2019 18:36:18 GMT -6
And also, these things become reference points for what good sound even is. That kind of learned response is very hard to shake. I have no issue with that but wasn’t expecting to feel down about my new mikes even before I picked them up; boo boo Newsflash m: I had realized that wa84 weren’t Neumann 84s. I know I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but that one hadn’t got by me ! I feel you. I own and enjoy a WA47. The internet can be a cruel place, but I'm getting within mm of the Pearlman and Beesneez mics I love. AND my kids even get to eat.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 20, 2019 18:40:30 GMT -6
It’s all good, after all RGO is the site of brotherly gear love and endless opinions(including mine)!
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Post by mcirish on Feb 20, 2019 19:08:13 GMT -6
It’s all good, after all RGO is the site of brotherly gear love and endless opinions(including mine)! I didn't mean to rain on your parade. I'm actually very interested in the WA-84. Can never have too many mics. I'd love to hear some real world experience with them. Give them a shot and write a review so we can get more of an idea how they work.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 20, 2019 19:20:27 GMT -6
It really is all good, was being a bit ficicious : want to get some new strings for my acoustic and might invite my A call drummer Matt over with his sweet Rodgers small kit, be happy to post some clips.
I am also really impressed with build and engineering quality of shock mounts,very secure, solid and nothing cheap about them.
I can confirm simple to unscrew caps, so I presume what Bryce said is true about fitting real 84 caps, if you want.
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Post by ericn on Feb 20, 2019 19:23:12 GMT -6
Couple of thoughts. My first job out of school was focused on reverse engineering of some high tech turbomachinery equipment, for what it’s aoerg. Reverse engineering and copying aren’t the same thing. One takes a measure of understanding. If you match the material, geometry and methods...you’ll get the same thing. If it can be heard, it can be tested. If it can be tested, it can be reverse engineered. Sometimes close enough, isn’t. Sometimes it is. Ain’t no such thing as magic. Yes it can be if the materials are still available and it makes economic sense to go through the process and produce, now considering the secret sauce here is the capsule and it’s still available you have a decent benchmark for the price you need to hit. Factor in some type of discount for the fact your not building something that says Neumann, account for how many your really going to sell and you can figure out what your going to invest in this. The biggest factor her really isn’t that it can’t be done, but the fact that those who can afford the investment in developing a reverse engineered product, the machinery tooling and QC to complete with the real thing are companies that are not interested in devoting that much to a clone. It would not surprise me if the folks at Music Group looked at it and realized Neumann is marking up the capsules so much that if MG came out with a spot in clone Neumann could sustain dropping their price low enough that Uli couldn’t complete with a product that said Neumann.
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Post by drbill on Feb 20, 2019 22:36:12 GMT -6
I can confirm simple to unscrew caps, so I presume what Bryce said is true about fitting real 84 caps, if you want. Can you take a pic of the back of the cap? Or confirm that it has a long-ish spike coming out of the back of the capsule head?
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Post by Mister Chase on Feb 20, 2019 22:53:15 GMT -6
Couple of thoughts. My first job out of school was focused on reverse engineering of some high tech turbomachinery equipment, for what it’s aoerg. Reverse engineering and copying aren’t the same thing. One takes a measure of understanding. If you match the material, geometry and methods...you’ll get the same thing. If it can be heard, it can be tested. If it can be tested, it can be reverse engineered. Sometimes close enough, isn’t. Sometimes it is. Ain’t no such thing as magic. Yes it can be if the materials are still available and it makes economic sense to go through the process and produce, now considering the secret sauce here is the capsule and it’s still available you have a decent benchmark for the price you need to hit. Factor in some type of discount for the fact your not building something that says Neumann, account for how many your really going to sell and you can figure out what your going to invest in this. The biggest factor her really isn’t that it can’t be done, but the fact that those who can afford the investment in developing a reverse engineered product, the machinery tooling and QC to complete with the real thing are companies that are not interested in devoting that much to a clone. It would not surprise me if the folks at Music Group looked at it and realized Neumann is marking up the capsules so much that if MG came out with a spot in clone Neumann could sustain dropping their price low enough that Uli couldn’t complete with a product that said Neumann. Eggzactly. I've been down this road for over ten years with Fender pickups. Trying out foundries domestic and foreign for magnets. Different wire companies. Wondering all the while how the originals sound so different. Some of it is age, but I have learned the specific makeup of the wire and magnets has changed a lot(or enough to make the feel and tone change) over the years. Getting closer is incredibly expensive.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 21, 2019 1:28:39 GMT -6
&drbill can confirm the long (brass?) spike coming out of back, take pic tomorrow.
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Post by drbill on Feb 21, 2019 1:39:27 GMT -6
&drbill can confirm the long (brass?) spike coming out of back, take pic tomorrow. Cool. No need for the pic - I'll trust both you and Warm on that one. <<thumbsup>> The pic I saw must have been of something else. It didn't have the long-ish brass spike coming out the back like the KM84. That's what made me so curious. Enjoy the mics!
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 21, 2019 2:14:13 GMT -6
Actually all the brass work seems very well executed and parts well machined and sealed for set (red glue?).
I did a simple dual mike recording one on my acoustic older strings neck position angled away from body and one on Vox with pop filter, both about 10 inches away, pop filter on Vox
Both into wa273, hpf at 80, gain at 60, eq flat
In daw on guitar I used hpf around 150 gentle slope as it was still a little boomy.
Anyway I find the wa84 balanced,nice natural presence and good high end with no stridency. I liked my octavamods but sometimes found top end phasey or had an odd quality.
I’ll post a link tomorrow.
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Post by stormymondays on Feb 21, 2019 9:22:09 GMT -6
Agree about the phasey top of the Oktavas. Usually it goes away with a slight reposition of the mic.
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Post by ericn on Feb 21, 2019 9:34:01 GMT -6
Yes it can be if the materials are still available and it makes economic sense to go through the process and produce, now considering the secret sauce here is the capsule and it’s still available you have a decent benchmark for the price you need to hit. Factor in some type of discount for the fact your not building something that says Neumann, account for how many your really going to sell and you can figure out what your going to invest in this. The biggest factor her really isn’t that it can’t be done, but the fact that those who can afford the investment in developing a reverse engineered product, the machinery tooling and QC to complete with the real thing are companies that are not interested in devoting that much to a clone. It would not surprise me if the folks at Music Group looked at it and realized Neumann is marking up the capsules so much that if MG came out with a spot in clone Neumann could sustain dropping their price low enough that Uli couldn’t complete with a product that said Neumann. Eggzactly. I've been down this road for over ten years with Fender pickups. Trying out foundries domestic and foreign for magnets. Different wire companies. Wondering all the while how the originals sound so different. Some of it is age, but I have learned the specific makeup of the wire and magnets has changed a lot(or enough to make the feel and tone change) over the years. Getting closer is incredibly expensive.
Yeah was talking to a guy who is trying to get a certain 6.5in woofer reproduced, who new magnets and wire was so fing hard to get right🤔
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Post by lpedrum on Feb 21, 2019 12:59:23 GMT -6
I'll repeat--I really did like the clips of the WA84 on overheads. It sounded large and open. Most of the criticism here was directed at the marketing of these as 84 clones, and that's where they seem to fail. But I too would love to hear some clips when you get the time.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 21, 2019 15:09:35 GMT -6
I’ll repeat too, I was being somewhat facetious:)
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Post by Ward on Feb 21, 2019 16:24:07 GMT -6
I’ll repeat too, I was being somewhat facetious:) Don't change, it's your best quality. <3
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 21, 2019 17:18:54 GMT -6
Snap !! as empathy is yours
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