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Post by veggieryan on Sept 6, 2018 15:30:07 GMT -6
Good points. That's the other thing about my Lynx and other modular converters. It's future proof. The Mkii Apollos weren't that long ago (2015 according to press releases), and now there are more already. I can probably last a good 10 years on my current Lynx without worrying about needing to wait for better features in 3 years. Yes, this is my biggest problem with UAD's business model. Especially how they intentionally hamstring the 8 channel models with inferior conversion to the 16 channel model while not providing either model with professional quality digital I/O like AES or MADI. From their end its only a few dollars difference to provide the same conversion on all models. They think they are being clever steering people to the 16 channel interface but really they just shoot themselves in the foot and make it impossible for many people to embrace their platform. Even the level of conversion being offered on the X series has already been surpassed years ago by truly high end offerings like Burl and JCF. The DA side was surpassed this year by new chips like the ESS 9038 making even budget boxes like the Pro-ject S2 Digital DAC surpass high end offerings in the 2-4k price range. So they want you to shell out high end money for conversion that is still mid-grade at best just copy-cat-ing the dual ESS Sabre chip setups that many people like myself find to sound cold and sterile. Compare this to what Metric Halo is doing with their 3D upgrade. They are upgrading decade old interfaces that now can sound better than a new Apollo because they were originally designed to be truly high end without cutting corners. The built in preamps on the ULN-8 still hold their own with high end clean solid state preamps today. That's how a product can remain relevant and compete ten years later instead of being obsolete after 3 years because it was designed with cost cutting and marketing tricks as the top priority. Now compare the DSP upgrade on Metric Halo compared to UAD "X": from mhsecure.com/3dEarlyAccess/ : "The processing power of the FPGA-based custom processors in 3d amount to roughly 30x the processing power of the DSP on the 2d Card. All the processors in the FPGA run with 1 sample of latency. All processors in the FPGA support their full capability at 192kHz. All of the audio transport in the system (with the exception of DSP processing) is managed completely in hardware. The 3d Core DMA engine connects to the fully programmable floating point DSP cores, which continue to support instantiable plug-in processing, with the added benefit of massively increasing the amount of low-latency memory available to the plug-ins. Each 3d Card has 1 GB of memory available for DSP processing - more than 2500x the memory that was available on 2d. This means that running out of memory for delays or reverbs is a thing of the past. We have included the full +DSP suite with the purchase of 3d. You can now access all the +DSP plug-ins as well as the +DSP graph on all units without an additional license." So a 30 fold increase in DSP power with truly flexible routing and truly low latency for very little money compared to 2 extra sharcs with the same per channel limitations of the original Apollo that they are buying back at less than 45% of what you paid for it. So yeah maybe the plugins aren't as "cool" or "retro" but you get to actually use them... more than one or two plugins per channel on a few channels at 96k... UAD: you need to slow your roll... step back and take a look at the bigger picture. Quit rushing to market with incremental "upgrades" that destroy the value of your brand. Stop hamstringing your platform by clinging to outdated sharc chips. Take criticism of your platform seriously or you will find many more people like me who watch each new hardware release with a sigh of relief knowing that leaving your platform was the best decision they ever made.
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Post by allbuttonmode on Sept 6, 2018 15:35:15 GMT -6
So... This is it? Marginally better Apollos? Again? What a lot of noise for nothing...
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UAD X
Sept 6, 2018 15:41:07 GMT -6
Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 6, 2018 15:41:07 GMT -6
Simply put, the Apollo universe offers some nice advantages, UAD plug-ins, easy workflow, rock solid reliability, expandability. Unison preamps may be good for some, but I haven't been impressed by it yet. Perhaps 8 or 16 instances of a nice preamp could be useful and save money on getting hardware preamps for things like miking drums, or whatever.
For my uses, the Apollo 8 has been fine, with the exception of converters being a little less than desired. That assumes the converters were the thing that made me prefer the sounds I've heard done with the Symphony. All things aside, I liked the Symphony's width and depth, and if it is taking a little off the top, I like the result. So, for me, the new Apollo simply has to sound better than the Symphony MkII. If it does, I'll get one eventually, if not, I'll just keep my Apollo 8 until I do a complete upgrade, including computer, monitors, outboard, etc.
In the interim, if the new Apollos don't sound better to me than the Symphony, I'll either get some A/D-D/A converters or a Symphony and keep my satellite.
*allbuttonmode, if the new Apollo's actually do sound better than the Symphony, that is a huge thing, not marginal, so I'm crossing my fingers.
Being reasonably happy with the Apollo 8, I think I can wait a while until the dust settles here.
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UAD X
Sept 6, 2018 15:55:40 GMT -6
Post by jtc111 on Sept 6, 2018 15:55:40 GMT -6
All the new models offer the same number of HEXA core DSP chips: 6. So it's like a quad and a half worth of processing. It looks like the big difference is the dynamic range on the X16 flagship model. All the other models spec at "129 dB dynamic range and -119 dB THD+N" while the X16 specs at "133 dB dynamic range and THD+N of -129 dB." The lowest priced model is selling for $2k and the X16 for $3500. If the ADDA is really up to snuff and competes with say Lynx and Symphony, that's a pretty good price. A TB Aurora (n), for example, 16 is 3999. Still, though... wish it had an Octo in there. The Apollo Firewire sold for $3k when it first came out. The X6 at $2k is quite a bargain compared to that.
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UAD X
Sept 6, 2018 15:57:49 GMT -6
Post by Johnkenn on Sept 6, 2018 15:57:49 GMT -6
Good points. That's the other thing about my Lynx and other modular converters. It's future proof. The Mkii Apollos weren't that long ago (2015 according to press releases), and now there are more already. I can probably last a good 10 years on my current Lynx without worrying about needing to wait for better features in 3 years. Yes, this is my biggest problem with UAD's business model. Especially how they intentionally hamstring the 8 channel models with inferior conversion to the 16 channel model while not providing either model with professional quality digital I/O like AES or MADI. From their end its only a few dollars difference to provide the same conversion on all models. They think they are being clever steering people to the 16 channel interface but really they just shoot themselves in the foot and make it impossible for many people to embrace their platform. Even the level of conversion being offered on the X series has already been surpassed years ago by truly high end offerings like Burl and JCF. The DA side was surpassed this year by new chips like the ESS 9038 making even budget boxes like the Pro-ject S2 Digital DAC surpass high end offerings in the 2-4k price range. So they want you to shell out high end money for conversion that is still mid-grade at best just copy-cat-ing the dual ESS Sabre chip setups that many people like myself find to sound cold and sterile. Compare this to what Metric Halo is doing with their 3D upgrade. They are upgrading decade old interfaces that now can sound better than a new Apollo because they were originally designed to be truly high end without cutting corners. The built in preamps on the ULN-8 still hold their own with high end clean solid state preamps today. That's how a product can remain relevant and compete ten years later instead of being obsolete after 3 years because it was designed with cost cutting and marketing tricks as the top priority. With all due respect, you're stating things as facts that aren't really facts. Burl and JCF use much older chips and base their marketing on adding transformer color to the process. Which is a totally different thing. I've heard the Burl DA. Wasn't particularly impressed... As a few others have pointed out, it really is the analog stage that has more to do with the sound as opposed to the chips...as the chips don't actually make any sound. I'm really interested to see how this stacks up to my Motu...and I thought the Motu stacked up so well to the Symphony MkII that I sold it. And the Motu is using an older/"lesser" ESS chip. I'm SO interested, I might just go down and pick up the x6 I have on hold
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Post by Guitar on Sept 6, 2018 15:59:46 GMT -6
As far as I can tell the Presonus Quantum and the MOTU stuff are still going to be the value leaders at this point. And the Clarett and Audient stuff for more basic setups.
You pay a LOT to get in on the Apollo experience. I guess I side with those who are glad to have changed trains. I still watch from the sidelines with curiosity.
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UAD X
Sept 6, 2018 16:02:40 GMT -6
Post by Johnkenn on Sept 6, 2018 16:02:40 GMT -6
I get some people's disappointment. But it can't be all things to all people. The ONLY reason I left the Apollo was because of the DA. It wasn't bad by any stretch, but there were better options. The more I settle in to how I'm operating in the post-music-makes-money (lol) scene...and realizing what my priorities are, the more the Apollo becomes attractive to me. Add in improved DA and it's more attractive. Now what I have to figure out is whether the workflow, ability to use different comps on the way in and improved ADDA is worth the extra $1000 compared to my Motu. Problem is, I won't know the answer until I have them side by side. Sigh.
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UAD X
Sept 6, 2018 16:03:36 GMT -6
Post by Johnkenn on Sept 6, 2018 16:03:36 GMT -6
As far as I can tell the Presonus Quantum and the MOTU stuff are still going to be the value leaders at this point. And the Clarett and Audient stuff for more basic setups. You pay a LOT to get in on the Apollo experience. I guess I side with those who are glad to have changed trains. I still watch from the sidelines with curiosity. Definitely think those two are the value leaders. But like ragan has said, the Apollos - from the standpoint of pure function - is probably the best all-around box out there. Again, my one gripe was conversion...wonder if they've fixed that?
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UAD X
Sept 6, 2018 16:06:15 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by drsax on Sept 6, 2018 16:06:15 GMT -6
If the conversion quality is noticeably improved I will see this as a great release. As someone who is vested in their platform, and I’ve been getting the best results of my career with this current mkii setup, I like the idea of being able to swap my current mkii’s out with these and not having to recable or redo my studio and workflow. But it’s gonna come down to the conversion quality. I’ve got my fingers crossed
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Post by Vincent R. on Sept 6, 2018 16:11:29 GMT -6
These are temping. I’m only on a silver face.
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Post by lcr on Sept 6, 2018 16:17:18 GMT -6
I dont miss the Silverface.
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UAD X
Sept 6, 2018 16:29:34 GMT -6
Post by Guitar on Sept 6, 2018 16:29:34 GMT -6
I dont miss the Silverface. LOL... me neither
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Post by jtc111 on Sept 6, 2018 16:36:21 GMT -6
I dont miss the Silverface. I'm thinking of painting the silver a nice cool aqua.
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UAD X
Sept 6, 2018 16:46:00 GMT -6
Post by Drew @ UA on Sept 6, 2018 16:46:00 GMT -6
True. I am a bit confused because in the interview with Mitch they said they went crazy on the conversion. I wonder how this translates. Some comparisons would be nice at some point. I just assumed he meant the 16 was still a little better than the other two...but I would also assume they view (as stated in the video) that the conversion in the x6 and x8 is still a step up from the BF. Yes, it's a step up across the entire line.
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UAD X
Sept 6, 2018 16:46:03 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by kcatthedog on Sept 6, 2018 16:46:03 GMT -6
Now there’s a conversion that will sound so sweet, we’ll be green with envy !
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UAD X
Sept 6, 2018 17:00:10 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Quint on Sept 6, 2018 17:00:10 GMT -6
It seems like a good idea to me, but the trade in values are lower than what you can get selling it yourself. Not if everyone else is selling one... I would try to sell my SF16 for $1200 to $1300, but would probably take a $1000, so $975 for trade in isn't bad. Where are you seeing those trade in numbers?
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UAD X
Sept 6, 2018 17:03:40 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Quint on Sept 6, 2018 17:03:40 GMT -6
All the new models offer the same number of HEXA core DSP chips: 6. So it's like a quad and a half worth of processing. It looks like the big difference is the dynamic range on the X16 flagship model. All the other models spec at "129 dB dynamic range and -119 dB THD+N" while the X16 specs at "133 dB dynamic range and THD+N of -129 dB." The lowest priced model is selling for $2k and the X16 for $3500. How does the 133/129 on the x16 compare to those specs on the Symphony Mkii?
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UAD X
Sept 6, 2018 17:05:26 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Johnkenn on Sept 6, 2018 17:05:26 GMT -6
All the new models offer the same number of HEXA core DSP chips: 6. So it's like a quad and a half worth of processing. It looks like the big difference is the dynamic range on the X16 flagship model. All the other models spec at "129 dB dynamic range and -119 dB THD+N" while the X16 specs at "133 dB dynamic range and THD+N of -129 dB." The lowest priced model is selling for $2k and the X16 for $3500. How does the 133/129 on the x16 compare to those specs on the Symphony Mkii? I believe it’s 123
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UAD X
Sept 6, 2018 17:05:38 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Johnkenn on Sept 6, 2018 17:05:38 GMT -6
That was from VK
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UAD X
Sept 6, 2018 17:07:17 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by kcatthedog on Sept 6, 2018 17:07:17 GMT -6
Symph mkii
Analog to Digital: THD+N: -115dB @ 22dBu (0.00020%) unweighted Dynamic range: 122dB A weighted Maximum input levels: +4dB setting: +24dBu -10dB setting: +6dBV Frequency response at 44.1kHz: 1-20,000 Hz (+/- 0.05dB) Input impedance: 10K Digital to Analog: THD+N: -119dB @ 21dBu (0.00014%) unweighted Dynamic Range: 126dB A weighted Max output levels – ∞ to +24dBu Frequency response at 44.1 kHz: dc to 20kHz (+/- 0.05dB) Output impedance: 50 Ohm Outputs are balanced through Apogee’s proprietary Perfect Symmetry Circuitry (PSC)
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 6, 2018 17:10:10 GMT -6
So the x8 is 2 better lol
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UAD X
Sept 6, 2018 17:16:32 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Quint on Sept 6, 2018 17:16:32 GMT -6
How does the 133/129 on the x16 compare to those specs on the Symphony Mkii? I believe it’s 123 The x16 has a pretty large increase over that then.
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UAD X
Sept 6, 2018 17:17:31 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Quint on Sept 6, 2018 17:17:31 GMT -6
Has Sweetwater ever done a trade in program?
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UAD X
Sept 6, 2018 17:36:57 GMT -6
Post by Johnkenn on Sept 6, 2018 17:36:57 GMT -6
I'm pretty sure it's backed by UA, so everyone is doing it.
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UAD X
Sept 6, 2018 17:57:31 GMT -6
Post by Mister Chase on Sept 6, 2018 17:57:31 GMT -6
In dynamic range, yea, definitely better. However, just because the Rode nt1a has a lower self noise by far than say, a u67, or far less than my TLM 170s even, doesn't mean it will sound as good or better.
But, its a good start. It's entirely possible that the conversion here is great. If it's Symphony or Lynx level, I might be game. Maybe.
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