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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2018 18:51:40 GMT -6
The real issue there is using an SM7B in the first place..
Nah, they're fine, and more likely to work well 95% of the time on unknown rock singers in 1-2 day EP sessions than pretty much anything else. They're handy mic's / home recording staples for recording in bad rooms or when the singer has next to zero mic technique. Apart from that they're a mediocre at best sounding mic, I've never liked one on anyone (MJ included)..
It's all preferences though..
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Post by chessparov on Aug 29, 2018 20:43:14 GMT -6
I'm a fan of Marshall Crenshaw, and the SM7 is his vocal mic of choice. Chris
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Post by yotonic on Aug 29, 2018 23:18:32 GMT -6
As has been mentioned here (and might not be immediately clear to some) you can't really go open a recording studio for $100k and make any kind of a living at it. Put it in the bank like JK said. There are too few paying "real clients" and too many well equipped studios out there.
But for $100k you can put something together and do some local projects and have a good time, especially if your wife has a good job! I know a bunch of guys with what would qualify as "smaller studios" who record local bands and have Apollos, U87s, UA reissues, a vintage piece or two, and the basic stuff and it's more than $100k even though you might not think so. People always overlook, and underestimate the cost of opening a business, which is why the old adage exists of "whatever you think it's gonna cost....double it"
What's nice about this Forum is that you have guys from varied backgrounds who would never cross paths professionally sharing their viewpoints and experiences. So while Dr. Bill or Jeff from Capi or some other Pro Mixer (and we all know what I mean here) might be in a situation and part of the business where $100k definitely doesn't go far, there's no reason to hate on him, and vice versa he should realize who some of the other people are here and try to keep it less about what you have and more about where you are at. I can have as good a time with a musician from a garage band as a top session cat because of the respect for the craft and the love of making music. If you love skiing it doesn't matter whether you are going down double black diamond trails or blue trails. And you can get some amazing skis for $100k
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Post by svart on Aug 30, 2018 7:32:12 GMT -6
10x capi 312, 300$ each plus 50$ assembly each = 3500$
500 rack and supply = 1000$
2x C414 or 2x Gefell M930 = 2000$
3x MD421 400$ each = 1200$
2x sm57 100$ each = 200$
D112 = 200$
SSL Alphalink + Madiextreme card = 5000$
Computer, gaming rig including monitor = 1500$
3x Mogami Gold 10ft db25 to XLR 250$ each = 750$
Redco 16ch XLR combo snake box = 180$
Custom Redco 16ch DB25-DB25 30ft = 236$
Neve Summing mixer 16ch = 3700$
Barefoot footprints = 3800$
Miscellaneous cables = 50,000$
OMG HE WAS RIGHT!
Nah just kidding.
30K$ for a setup to record killer drums without finding deals, without compromises, without doing any soldering or anything. I could save 5-10K on this just by making a few concessions on stuff like the summing mixer and monitors.
For me, I'd probably lose the summing mixer and go with either ITB or the CAPI summing mixer when it's released. Monitors would probably JBL somethings, and I'd back off to something like ProCo cables if I didn't make them myself.
Personally, I could probably shave half this amount by searching around for a couple days for deals and sales, buying used on some stuff, etc, then I could brag about how many houses I have bought.
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Post by christopher on Aug 30, 2018 10:05:28 GMT -6
No rent? Screw recording other people then...
..except, well you said its an awesome room? dammit, I'll want to record live bands then:
24 track studer or similar.. hope for a deal around $10k after shipping. Then dump another $5k in tech costs, get the transport running solid and find the best channels. hope a new MRL can fit in this. Call John French see if I can make it a 2 inch 8 track for less than $17k. (I'd ask about a custom 12 track: 3 different widths/ 16trk+24trk+1/2" ..so I could get all the sounds) $3k in tape, a couple new reels/ plenty used. ok there went $35k on ancient tech, lol... next a console: $15k range or less if patient, hope it comes with a built in bay and at least a few onboard compressors. so now I'm down to $50k $12k - u67 $4k - km84 pair $4k - u47 FET $2k - 6 dynamic mics Ok now I have (edit math lol, I think... ) $28k left.... (we're counting taxes? crap...) still need treatment, converters, monitors, headphones and amp, DI boxes, instruments, computer, external preamps and processing, and at least 7 more utility mics. (edit: forgot wiring..) I guess I'd be doing a lot of DIY
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Post by drbill on Aug 30, 2018 10:24:28 GMT -6
Hey drbill , out of curiosity, how often are you recording vocals? I found 1500+ of your songs and only 1 has some minor background chanting. You listened to all 1500 of em? Seriously?? That's pretty heroic effort. LOL 1st half of my career - it was 20-25:1 in favor of vocal songs / album cuts, etc.. vs. instrumental musics 2nd half of my career - currently - it's probably 1:15-20. Flip-flopped in the opposite direction. Mostly writing for film / TV these days as that's where the last glimmer of hope is to sustain a career in music. Not as much need for vocals there. (IME) I still write "songs" though and have plenty out there.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 30, 2018 10:26:45 GMT -6
Hey drbill , out of curiosity, how often are you recording vocals? I found 1500+ of your songs and only 1 has some minor background chanting. You listened to all 1500 of em? Seriously?? That's pretty heroic effort. LOL 1st half of my career - it was 20-25:1 in favor of vocal songs / album cuts, etc.. vs. instrumental musics 2nd half of my career - currently - it's probably 1:15-20. Flip-flopped in the opposite direction. Mostly writing for film / TV these days as that's where the last glimmer of hope is to sustain a career in music. Not as much need for vocals there. (IME) I still write "songs" though and have plenty out there. ...much harder to come across the songs online. Seems like I can only find midi instrumentals with some guitar.
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Post by swurveman on Aug 30, 2018 12:50:39 GMT -6
Your entire studio burns to the ground, and your insurance payout is a hundred grand. You Inherited a new space that suits your needs so, it's just gear you need, It's time to restart a new place. List your priority purchases. Before I spent a dime, I'd ask myself these questions: 1. How far is my control room from my live room? How big is my live room? How good does it sound? 2. Do I have other rooms for isolation? If so, how many? 3. Am I going to be tracking and mixing bands that include full drums with room mics? 4. Am I going to be tracking and mixing quartets and/or local orchestra's? 5. Am I going to do any film work? 6. How much acoustic treatment do I have in the studio? Is it really enough? 7. Am I used to working on a console or itb or hybrid? Which do I prefer? 8. How much software do I have that I can reinstall to my new computer by downloading it? 9. Would I record to hard disk or to tape? 10. Am I going to master projects as well as track and mix?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2018 14:09:50 GMT -6
As has been mentioned here (and might not be immediately clear to some) you can't really go open a recording studio for $100k and make any kind of a living at it. Put it in the bank like JK said. There are too few paying "real clients" and too many well equipped studios out there. But for $100k you can put something together and do some local projects and have a good time, especially if your wife has a good job! I know a bunch of guys with what would qualify as "smaller studios" who record local bands and have Apollos, U87s, UA reissues, a vintage piece or two, and the basic stuff and it's more than $100k even though you might not think so. People always overlook, and underestimate the cost of opening a business, which is why the old adage exists of "whatever you think it's gonna cost....double it" What's nice about this Forum is that you have guys from varied backgrounds who would never cross paths professionally sharing their viewpoints and experiences. So while Dr. Bill or Jeff from Capi or some other Pro Mixer (and we all know what I mean here) might be in a situation and part of the business where $100k definitely doesn't go far, there's no reason to hate on him, and vice versa he should realize who some of the other people are here and try to keep it less about what you have and more about where you are at. I can have as good a time with a musician from a garage band as a top session cat because of the respect for the craft and the love of making music. If you love skiing it doesn't matter whether you are going down double black diamond trails or blue trails. And you can get some amazing skis for $100k I must be one of the limited few that's had access to both sides and tried to make it work, years back I did a under $300.00 mixing challenge and that included instruments / effects / DAW etc.. Yeah the instruments (especially that ugly distortion pedal) was the limiting factor and it included some "interesting" workarounds but people decided the results were far from bad.
Later on I did a $2.5K challenge and I made an open invitation to anyone, whether they had a Neve or API desk (whatever) to see via public opinion if they could "subjectively" best me at a tracking and mixing session.. There are three reasons why I did this A) As an experiment to find out exactly what the limitations of "rubbish" equipment actually was B) As a statement that you're not screwed if you don't have a ridiculous sum of investment and C) I got drunk and bet someone who was a gear snob (he ticked me off), although I continued the tradition because it was kinda fun..
Don't take this like I think I'm a musical genius, far from it.. Some of my earlier stuff was rather dire to say the least, the point is in this day and age you got to seperate the wheat from the chaff and $100K is a ridiculous sum of money for a recording setup.. Grammy's have been won using an old Yammie digital mixer, there's industry veterans like PM on GS that use a relatively cheap interface and even headphones some times to mix so what exactly is your excuse?
I'm also not saying extending your budget is pointless, my setup is anything but "cheap" although I 100% know the majority of it's extra $$$'s for preference not because I'd require it to survive.. Sure some low end equipment is hit and miss (I've had badly desgined interfaces / drivers / mic's etc.) although if I used equipment holistically as a crutch I'd start heavily re-evaluating my skillsets..
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Post by yotonic on Aug 30, 2018 14:27:30 GMT -6
I hear you but that's not what I'm seeing in the record business. Most $100k studios I see are "small project studios" doing local work part time. I don't see any $100k studios getting the label work period. More often today it's small high end rooms owned by a Producer, Writer, sometimes Mixer like Kevin Kadish who did Meghan Trainor's record. And these guys all have more than $100k in gear in their small rooms. And there is generally one or two in reach of every market, more in the A markets. You need instruments, furniture, lights, racks, stands, gear. It doesn't take much to get past $100k just add up what you have some time thoroughly and try not to hit the bottle
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Post by Vincent R. on Aug 30, 2018 14:36:28 GMT -6
Honestly, I don’t have 100k worth of gear as it is, so much of this is what I want to add to my current set up anyway. Assuming I have the space and it doesn’t need anything and all I have to focus on is gear. Also assuming used pricing on some of this:
iMac 27” with SSD and 32 GB Ram: 4K (2) Apollo 16s: 4k Pair of HS7 Monitors: $700 Audient ASP4816: 20k (4) BAE 1073 MPF: 8k (2) Demeter VTMP 2B: 2K (4) DBX 160x: $800 (2) Audio-Scape Opto 2K (1) Audio-Scape Buss Comps: $700 (2) Stam EQP1A: 2k
(2) FleA 49: 8k (2) Blue Bottles w/ B6, B7, B11, B4 Caps: 8k (2) U87ai: 4K (2) SAE67s: 4.5K (1) Bock 251: 4K (1) FleA 47: 3k (2) TLM170: 3.5k (2) Coles 4038: 2k (2) Royer 121: 2k (1) AEA R88: 1.5k (1) Stereo Set: Telefunken ELA M260: 3k (1) Stereo Set Telefunken M60: 1k (2) SM57: 150 (4) MD 421: 1k (1) SA47F: 600
The remaining to misc cabling and stands.
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Post by Guitar on Aug 30, 2018 14:47:49 GMT -6
That's a good point about trying not to hit the bottle.
I was in a little bit of a writing slump at the beginning and middle of this month.
I am not a collector, so staring at all this valuable gear that is all around me kind of became onerous, foreboding.
On a positive note, since a week ago I've been cranking out ideas, and the gear is safe again.
It's not always such a good thing to be heavily invested, unless the investment is doing its work.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2018 15:01:57 GMT -6
I hear you but that's not what I'm seeing in the record business. Most $100k studios I see are "small project studios" doing local work part time. I don't see any $100k studios getting the label work period. More often today it's small high end rooms owned by a Producer, Writer, sometimes Mixer like Kevin Kadish who did Meghan Trainor's record. And these guys all have more than $100k in gear in their small rooms. And there is generally one or two in reach of every market, more in the A markets. You need instruments, furniture, lights, racks, stands, gear. It doesn't take much to get past $100k just add up what you have some time thoroughly and try not to hit the bottle
You're missing the point.. You don't need anything bar a modest setup, probably $6 - 8K tops to record / mix bands.
Mixers / mastering outfits don't need instruments (bar drums most likely, bands record with what THEY prefer not you), furniture? Ever heard of Ikea?, plugins don't need racks and lights are generally included with a rental. Spending $100K in this day and age is wazzing money up a wall unless A) You're an established mixer / producer / artist earning a fair amount of $$$'s already B) You're an IT middle manager with a passion for music, where you can save up for an LFAC / fully kitted studio in a couple of years (it's no big loss) C) You're a trust funder wanting to make it in the recording industry..
Project or even "large" studio's (what's left of them) don't tend to get label work, over the years via forums / referrals / bands I ended up talking to a lot of label engineers etc. most of the work (as it's been for ages) is given to in house engineers or they refer them to "what's hot" mixers / producers for more "street cred".
Chances are over the years you do amount a collection of decent stuff, but we still gotta seperate the necessity for the want's.. I WANT a Neve Desk but I do not NEED one, in terms of convenience quite a few "A" class mixers do use a relatively modest interface and plugs.. There's plenty of interviews on GS stating so, you don't need to take my word for it.
You might not "like it", you may not agree but that's the reality of things.
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Post by yotonic on Aug 30, 2018 15:09:27 GMT -6
Ok I'm glad you are "schooling me" with all of your knowledge from GS. Are you a professional, full time studio owner? Do you have a discography? You are entitled to say whatever you want here without being attacked and vice versa. My point is that the guys who "are" full time studios, recording signed bands on little labels to large labels are not working in studios with only $100k worth of gear. I don't need your anecdotal opinion, I see it everyday. Because I'm a gear head and work in the touring business I ask every established headliner, and support act where they are tracking their records and with whom. If you are better informed about that reality from your time spent on GS then best to you. Make Recording Great Again!
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Post by chessparov on Aug 30, 2018 15:22:00 GMT -6
Just curious, if you get a certain amount of outboard (I realize that's subjective)... How much can you $ave by getting into the whole plug-in thang?
How much would prospective clients really care about the whole hardware vs. software emulation question? FWIW the (very) limited amount of exposure to this question, puts my bias generally over to the "hardware is better" side.
Thoughts?... Chris
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Post by drbill on Aug 30, 2018 15:30:44 GMT -6
Just curious, if you get a certain amount of outboard (I realize that's subjective)... How much can you $ave by getting into the whole plug-in thang? How much would prospective clients really care about the whole hardware vs. software emulation question? FWIW the (very) limited amount of exposure to this question, puts my bias generally over to the "hardware is better" side. Thoughts?... Chris Depends on who you're talking too. If you're talking to mostly plugin guys, they will say to stay ITB - that plugins are equal to, or 99% as good as hardware. If you're talking to mostly hardware guys, they'll say use hardware - it's not even close. IME, hardware has made - and continues to make - a huge difference for me. Both sonically, and esthetically - which for me makes a huge creative difference that can't be measured by nulling sound files. Honestly, it's an internet fight waiting to happen. Did you REALLY want to ask that question?? As for how much you can save? If you count multiple instantiations of plugins, I'd say you'd probably pay $100 to $1 for hardware vs. plugins.
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Post by Guitar on Aug 30, 2018 15:31:02 GMT -6
Well plugins are more of an "expense" and hardware is more of an "investment" in terms of money but also space, racks, cabling, patchbays, and so on.
Pretty much everyone is expected to have great plugins. Having great hardware, in my experience, requires a little bit of an extra commitment.
I have a lot of fun with my mixing hardware, though, I would recommend it to anyone. Great sounds. Very little compromise.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2018 15:39:02 GMT -6
Ok I'm glad you are "schooling me" with all of your knowledge from GS. Are you a professional, full time studio owner? Do you have a discography? You are entitled to say whatever you want here without being attacked and vice versa. My point is that the guys who "are" full time studios, recording signed bands on little labels to large labels are not working in studios with only $100k worth of gear. I don't need your anecdotal opinion, I see it everyday. Because I'm a gear head and work in the touring business I ask every established headliner, and support act where they are tracking their records and with whom. If you are better informed about that reality from your time spent on GS then best to you. Make Recording Great Again!
Oh, that's the path we're going down aye? I don't agree with your point of view so you start drudging up ways to wave dongs.. I was a "full time" "engineer" for seven years and I put those in quotes because I supplemented a lot of it with EE and programming work to keep the lights on.. Now I'm an Audio R&D architect for both private and public sector, which may I say keeps my fiscal situation far happier..
It's not "anectdotal" when there's industry veterans (so not me) have openly said what they need / use.. If said vet uses only a Metric Halo ULN and a bunch of UAD plugins what's the issue? If you DO have an issue with it take it up with them.. It's like shooting the messenger.!
Also I couldn't give two shits what they or anyone else use, I (nobody else) has to live with what I have.. I am tired of the gear snobbery spurious output BS that if you don't spend $100K on a setup you're screwed out the gate. It's a fallacy, people have done great with far less and you can argue all you like but it doesn't mean jack..
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Post by svart on Aug 30, 2018 15:48:55 GMT -6
Just curious, if you get a certain amount of outboard (I realize that's subjective)... How much can you $ave by getting into the whole plug-in thang? How much would prospective clients really care about the whole hardware vs. software emulation question? FWIW the (very) limited amount of exposure to this question, puts my bias generally over to the "hardware is better" side. Thoughts?... Chris For me, it's split between HW and plugs. Get hardware if you're going to use it for it's sound. Take for instance the gritty spank a bluestripe 1176 gives something. You can push it harder than normal and it'll give you more character. Use plugs for things you don't expect character from, such as surgical EQ and leveling off background vocals with a stock compressor, etc. Hardware is always more forgiving, and it's more colorful than the plugs that emulate it. Plugs can encode non-linearity and essentially mirror it to give you a rough approximation, but they can't change dynamically with the input signal like hardware can.
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Post by yotonic on Aug 30, 2018 15:50:54 GMT -6
It's not snobbery "Shadow". If you can't make room for people here that work full time in the music business, then you will run a lot of nice people off and it will be 98% old retired guys with home project studios. What would you say to a young architect starting out who got all of his information from chat forums... These places are what they are. If you don't want diversity and varied view points then keep bashing people who aren't forum jockeys and this will wind up like GS with very few actual pros even hanging out here. You can make a record on an iphone, I've seen it, and a you can make a great record completely on an Apollo, but that's not what is actually happening out there. Bands and artists with the money saved up to record are going to the best studios they can find, which is an impressive CV, strong gear list, industry connections, and a fair price. I don't think anyone on this topic has said that you "can't make a good recording with just an Apollo, but simply that in reality the few paying clients that are out there are going to places with more gear than that, and there is usually a corollary there with experience. Right now I probably know 15 bands that are working on recording projects and there isn't a single one doing this somewhere with $6k in gear... ("You're missing the point.. You don't need anything bar a modest setup, probably $6 - 8K tops to record / mix bands.") Maybe we are speaking past each other.
FYI: some industry Vet who tells you on a chat forum that all he uses is a Metric Halo and some plug ins, is being conversational and obviously leaving out quite a bit of other gear he or she owns. Go visit them and see....
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Post by svart on Aug 30, 2018 15:58:38 GMT -6
It's not snobbery "Shadow". If you can't make room for people here that work full time in the music business, then you will run a lot of nice people off and it will be 98% old retired guys with home project studios. What would you say to a young architect starting out who got all of his information from chat forums... These places are what they are. If you don't want diversity and varied view points then keep bashing people who aren't forum jockeys and this will wind up like GS with very few actual pros even hanging out here. You can make a record on an iphone, I've seen it, and a you can make a great record completely on an Apollo, but that's not what is actually happening out there. Bands and artists with the money saved up to record are going to the best studios they can find, which is an impressive CV, strong gear list, industry connections, and a fair price. I don't think anyone on this topic has said that you "can't make a good recording with just an Apollo, but simply that in reality the few paying clients that are out there are going to places with more gear than that, and there is usually a corollary there with experience. Right now I probably know 15 bands that are working on recording projects and there isn't a single one doing this somewhere with $6k in gear... ("You're missing the point.. You don't need anything bar a modest setup, probably $6 - 8K tops to record / mix bands.") Maybe we are speaking past each other. FYI: some industry Vet who tells you on a chat forum that all he uses is a Metric Halo and some plug ins, is being conversational and obviously leaving out quite a bit of other gear he or she owns. Go visit them and see.... I've been in rooms with 4K's sitting there, and the engineer recording and mixing through a symphony, a few 500 pieces and stock protools plugs.. I asked why they didn't use the 4K and the reply is that the recording budget wouldn't even pay for the electricity to turn it on. But hey, they eventually closed down because they couldn't get bands in that would/could pay the going rate for a "big room". Personally I think 6-8K is a bit low for anything but singer-songwriters. Maybe 20-30K and you're better suited to do the budgets and talent we're seeing these days. Anyway, that seems to the ballpark for the local medium-sized studios that are getting enough clients to stay open.
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Post by drbill on Aug 30, 2018 15:59:08 GMT -6
If you don't want diversity and varied view points then keep bashing people who aren't forum jockeys and this will wind up like GS with very few actual pros even hanging out here..I must quote that for accuracy and importance. <thumbsup> To all - I say give everyone their own fair voice without the class bashing, and listen to those who "are in your shoes". You already know who they are. If you're a weekend warrior, then don't listen to the opinion of a 5 room studio manager. Their perspective will be radically different than yours. I personally appreciate the opinion of those who are working it 7 days a week as a living. That's what I do as well.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2018 16:04:56 GMT -6
It's not snobbery "Shadow". If you can't make room for people here that work full time in the music business, then you will run a lot of nice people off and it will be 98% old retired guys with home project studios. What would you say to a young architect starting out who got all of his information from chat forums... These places are what they are. If you don't want diversity and varied view points then keep bashing people who aren't forum jockeys and this will wind up like GS with very few actual pros even hanging out here. You can make a record on an iphone, I've seen it, and a you can make a great record completely on an Apollo, but that's not what is actually happening out there. Bands and artists with the money saved up to record are going to the best studios they can find, which is an impressive CV, strong gear list, industry connections, and a fair price. I don't think anyone on this topic has said that you "can't make a good recording with just an Apollo, but simply that in reality the few paying clients that are out there are going to places with more gear than that, and there is usually a corollary there with experience. Right now I probably know 15 bands that are working on recording projects and there isn't a single one doing this somewhere with $6k in gear... ("You're missing the point.. You don't need anything bar a modest setup, probably $6 - 8K tops to record / mix bands.") Maybe we are speaking past each other.FYI: some industry Vet who tells you on a chat forum that all he uses is a Metric Halo and some plug ins, is being conversational and obviously leaving out quite a bit of other gear he or she owns. Go visit them and see....
We are speaking past each other and you're not understanding (or reading) what I'm saying...
If I was in a band and decided to record at a facility, for sure I'd want them to have a better setup than I did with a proven track record.. That will come in way over $100K (not in cables either ), because what would be the point otherwise?
As I said chances are they're already established, outside of the small chunk of pie the industry is in COMPLETE tatters.. So if you're a startup you'd have to be MAD to invest so much in equipment when as I said a lot it's a nicety not a necessity..
I understand the reasons for specific purchases, hell I did it myself.. Cooper Timecube, Eventide 2016 and I've owned an SSL 4K. They all brought a "flavour" I enjoyed to the party, again I didn't NEED it but it helped in creating my own sonic influence / workflow and enjoyment.. None of those can be taken lightly, my only real point is if push came to shove and someone gave me a Clarett some half decent mic's and plugs I'd be fine, not that I wouldn't "prefer" an SSL ..
P.S Who the hell am I "bashing" by putting my own opinion into play? Seems a little close minded here. Whatever happens you do what's right for YOU and art is so subjective it's pointless arguing over it. Someone's opinion may get you to try / take on another perspective but end of the day it'll either help or get dismissed..
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Post by yotonic on Aug 30, 2018 16:07:23 GMT -6
Ok we were speaking past each other... Happens all the time with us old geezers!!!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2018 16:17:19 GMT -6
If you don't want diversity and varied view points then keep bashing people who aren't forum jockeys and this will wind up like GS with very few actual pros even hanging out here..I must quote that for accuracy and importance. <thumbsup> To all - I say give everyone their own fair voice without the class bashing, and listen to those who "are in your shoes". You already know who they are. If you're a weekend warrior, then don't listen to the opinion of a 5 room studio manager. Their perspective will be radically different than yours. I personally appreciate the opinion of those who are working it 7 days a week as a living. That's what I do as well.
That's just downright rude, svart has a studio and tries to do it full time do you not respect his opinion because it's not yours? I had a studio for seven years and worked 100 hours a week hanging on tooth and claw, just because I'm now what you refer to in a derogatory fashion a "weekend" warrior my opinion is worthless?
This isn't winding up "like GS" at this point it's going down the same path.. Jeez.!
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