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km84s
Aug 2, 2018 16:33:46 GMT -6
Post by jampa on Aug 2, 2018 16:33:46 GMT -6
Got a link for that post about the capsules? Did try a search but couldn't find it. here we are
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ericn
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km84s
Aug 2, 2018 18:25:04 GMT -6
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Post by ericn on Aug 2, 2018 18:25:04 GMT -6
Cheers Eric. Right, but problem is I'm worried it won't be "authentic" or whatever to the original sound. Will it be the same material? I hear the modern Thiersch capsules for the LDCs aren't as good or something, because they use a different material now? Mylar vs. PVC or something? I dunno. I'm not really clued up on any of this mic stuff. I just want my new pair to be matched as close as possible in frequency response and volume so I can do stuff like X/Y or ORTF without having to worry about it, and sound like they should. Currently they are about 4dB apart. If this will require spending about another £1k on top of the mics for two new capsules, then it will be an expensive investment! Talk to Mr Grosser or ask at Klaus’s forum. I think the material for KM8’series is 99.9% the same I think a nickel alloy? unlike the M7.
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km84s
Aug 2, 2018 19:14:51 GMT -6
Post by rowmat on Aug 2, 2018 19:14:51 GMT -6
I made the decision when I purchased my boxed pair of KM85's to buy brand new KK84 capsules as I wanted to make sure they were up to spec and closely matched for stereo use.
The other used KK84 capsule I purchased looked like brand new and remains on the single KM body I bought prior to the pair of KM85's.
However all three mics seem consistant in both their level and response.
Also if I was to ever sell them (unlikely) I would not being doing any deals as I doubt you will find three better KM84's anywhere unless they were NOS.
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Post by spindrift on Aug 2, 2018 20:44:40 GMT -6
I think it would be foolish to scrimp on the most important sounding component of a vintage classic mic when its capsule is still in production, to the same specs, by the greatest microphone company the world has ever known. Unlike the modern K87 capsule, no one is complaining about the modern capsules for the KM series. You scored a great deal on those KM84s. If you don't like the sound of the caps (and that poor sound follows the switching of said capsules), maybe take that savings and go get some new real Neumann capsules for them and make great music! A reskin will lower their resale value significantly regardless of how they look or sound. Regarding the 4dB output difference, are you sure they're both strapped for 200 ohms? Some of them (the ones with the red dot) were set for 50 ohms to be compatible with the older USA consoles which couldn't handle the hotter level. See attached pic for what a 200 ohm strapping looks like on the transformer for a KMi body. Note the solder bridge between the transformer terminals 2 & 3 for 200 ohms and the lack of the bridge between 1&2 and 3&4). Since the serials are so close, I can't imagine they're not strapped the same but it doesn't hurt to look before buying new capsules. Attachments:
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km84s
Aug 2, 2018 21:02:16 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by rowmat on Aug 2, 2018 21:02:16 GMT -6
Yeah good point on the output termination. Could be lucky and discover that is the cause of the level difference. I think it would be foolish to scrimp on the most important sounding component of a vintage classic mic when its capsule is still in production, to the same specs, by the greatest microphone company the world has ever known. Unlike the modern K87 capsule, no one is complaining about the modern capsules for the KM series. You scored a great deal on those KM84s. If you don't like the sound of the caps (and that poor sound follows the switching of said capsules), maybe take that savings and go get some new real Neumann capsules for them and make great music! A reskin will lower their resale value significantly regardless of how they look or sound. Regarding the 4dB output difference, are you sure they're both strapped for 200 ohms? Some of them (the ones with the red dot) were set for 50 ohms to be compatible with the older USA consoles which couldn't handle the hotter level. See attached pic for what a 200 ohm strapping looks like on the transformer for a KMi body. Note the solder bridge between the transformer terminals 2 & 3 for 200 ohms and the lack of the bridge between 1&2 and 3&4). Since the serials are so close, I can't imagine they're not strapped the same but it doesn't hurt to look before buying new capsules.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 3, 2018 0:11:12 GMT -6
Lots of commentary out there about it being technically impossible for re-skins to be as good as new manufacture. I wouldn’t reskin anything that has a current new exact replacement. Good question here - who says that the current capsules out of Sennheiser/Neumann are the same as the originals?
Who says they aren't?
I think this is probably a question for Klaus Heyne - he's on the mic forum at Terry Manning's PRW site.
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km84s
Aug 3, 2018 0:24:30 GMT -6
EmRR likes this
Post by rowmat on Aug 3, 2018 0:24:30 GMT -6
Lots of commentary out there about it being technically impossible for re-skins to be as good as new manufacture. I wouldn’t reskin anything that has a current new exact replacement. Good question here - who says that the current capsules out of Sennheiser/Neumann are the same as the originals?
Who says they aren't?
I think this is probably a question for Klaus Heyne - he's on the mic forum at Terry Manning's PRW site.
I can vouch the used KK84 capsule I purchased from eBay and the new pair of KK84 capsules I bought from Sennheiser, Australia are indistinguishable. I also have a pair of KM184's and the KM84's with the new capsules are flatter and more pleasing to the ear.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2018 1:42:39 GMT -6
Thanks for all the input. I'll send the mics off to Andreas soon and get his assessment. Hopefully the capsules are fine and he can match the amps without the need for a reskin or new capsules, but I will do whatever it takes to get these on top form!
Other thing I will do is swap the capsules so I can see if the 4dB difference is the capsule or the body/amp. I will also check the output termination. Thanks again, will report back later!
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Deleted
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km84s
Aug 3, 2018 4:08:53 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2018 4:08:53 GMT -6
I don't have screwdrivers small enough to take the bodies apart so am not gonna be able to check the output termination, not sure I'd feel safe doing it anyway! Did some more tests. Swapped capsules and leads on bodies. It's definitely the "unmarked" capsule that is 4dB louder on both bodies. Both mics sound very sweet, but I do want them matched. I also discovered one of the cables the dude supplied me with (Tuchel to XLR), is very shoddy and noisy and crackly when moved or touched. So it looks like a resolder is in order, or just ordering a decent pair of Tuchel to XLR adaptors. What sort of preamp gain are you guys using for say strummed and fingerpicked acoustic, 12-24" back? 50dB seems good for strummed and 55dB for fingerpicked here, to get peaks around -12dBFS. Just wondering if that's a good ballpark. After reading the thread jampa linked to (thanks!) I am now wondering if I may also have a KM85 capsule instead, it's unmarked, taller, less bevelled, and only has a 3 digit serial, just like his, BUT it's shows no bass rolloff and is 4dB luder (unlike his). Just waiting to hear back from Andreas Grosser before sending to him for a service and assessment. Seems like I probably need to think about ordering two new capsules though...
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km84s
Aug 3, 2018 4:24:19 GMT -6
Post by rowmat on Aug 3, 2018 4:24:19 GMT -6
I don't have screwdrivers small enough to take the bodies apart so am not gonna be able to check the output termination, not sure I'd feel safe doing it anyway! Did some more tests. Swapped capsules and leads on bodies. It's definitely the "unmarked" capsule that is 4dB louder on both bodies. Both mics sound very sweet, but I do want them matched. I also discovered one of the cables the dude supplied me with (Tuchel to XLR), is very shoddy and noisy and crackly when moved or touched. So it looks like a resolder is in order, or just ordering a decent pair of Tuchel to XLR adaptors. What sort of preamp gain are you guys using for say strummed and fingerpicked acoustic, 12-24" back? 50dB seems good for strummed and 55dB for fingerpicked here, to get peaks around -12dBFS. Just wondering if that's a good ballpark. After reading the thread jampa linked to (thanks!) I am now wondering if I may also have a KM85 capsule instead, it's unmarked, taller, less bevelled, and only has a 3 digit serial, just like his, BUT it's shows no bass rolloff and is 4dB luder (unlike his). Just waiting to hear back from Andreas Grosser before sending to him for a service and assessment. Seems like I probably need to think about ordering two new capsules though... A standard KM84 has quite a bit of proximity up close and even the KM85 may initially seem okay and fairly balanced up close, say at around 4 inches when speaking, but it will dramatically fall off as soon you begin to increase the distance from the source. At 2 feet or more it will sound pretty thin. Probably my overall favourite preamp for use with KM84's are our Seventh Circle Audio J99's which are pretty much a Hardy Jensen Twin Servo clone. The KM84's are a common go-to mic for acoustic instruments which is where the Twin Servo also excels.
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Deleted
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km84s
Aug 3, 2018 4:41:14 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2018 4:41:14 GMT -6
Thanks, I will try backing off another 12" and seeing if there's a difference in bass response between them.
I only have a TG2 pre here, but it's already sounding better than anything else I have ever used with it (the KM84s).
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km84s
Aug 3, 2018 7:31:44 GMT -6
Post by spindrift on Aug 3, 2018 7:31:44 GMT -6
Yes, Andreas will get them sorted out nicely I’m sure. You’ll miss them while they’re away though.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2018 7:52:28 GMT -6
Yep, just been putting the "normal" one up in mono on the acoustic again, just sounds so good/right.
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km84s
Aug 3, 2018 8:58:08 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by stormymondays on Aug 3, 2018 8:58:08 GMT -6
Yep, just been putting the "normal" one up in mono on the acoustic again, just sounds so good/right. Still want to shoot them out against the Warbler? I’m sure it seems like a waste of time now... Even my Joly modded Oktavas, which had won all previous “battles”, can’t hold a candle to the real thing. Although those mics are still useful.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2018 9:17:22 GMT -6
I actually did yesterday, had the Warbler up for a few minutes, it just sounded not as good, haha. Will be selling it along with my pair of Line Audio CM3s.
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km84s
Aug 3, 2018 11:05:08 GMT -6
Post by joseph on Aug 3, 2018 11:05:08 GMT -6
I think it would be foolish to scrimp on the most important sounding component of a vintage classic mic when its capsule is still in production, to the same specs, by the greatest microphone company the world has ever known. Unlike the modern K87 capsule, no one is complaining about the modern capsules for the KM series. You scored a great deal on those KM84s. If you don't like the sound of the caps (and that poor sound follows the switching of said capsules), maybe take that savings and go get some new real Neumann capsules for them and make great music! A reskin will lower their resale value significantly regardless of how they look or sound. Regarding the 4dB output difference, are you sure they're both strapped for 200 ohms? Some of them (the ones with the red dot) were set for 50 ohms to be compatible with the older USA consoles which couldn't handle the hotter level. See attached pic for what a 200 ohm strapping looks like on the transformer for a KMi body. Note the solder bridge between the transformer terminals 2 & 3 for 200 ohms and the lack of the bridge between 1&2 and 3&4). Since the serials are so close, I can't imagine they're not strapped the same but it doesn't hurt to look before buying new capsules. I actually have one KM84 with adapter that is European and strapped for 200 ohms and another US one that is 50 ohms for US market. The difference is actually 6db. Interestingly enough if you make up the gain, they still work together well as a stereo pair, which I did not expect! I checked with a meter to make sure my ears weren't deceiving me.
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Deleted
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km84s
Aug 3, 2018 11:29:42 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2018 11:29:42 GMT -6
We all know that Neumann still make the KK84 capsule for the KM84 body, and that they are interchangeable with the KK83 (Omni) and KK85 (Cardioid with bass roll-off) capsules, but question is, do they also still make the KK83 capsule? Be nice to have the option of Omni or Cardioid... Or should I just go for a pair of those Beezneez plastic monstrosities? www.beesneezmicrophones.com.au/store/omni-ball-for-neumann-km84-km-84.html
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Post by joseph on Aug 3, 2018 11:35:09 GMT -6
I just had 666 posts! Which pattern is best to record "Hail Satan"? I'm going with omni.
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Post by spindrift on Aug 3, 2018 11:38:14 GMT -6
Lots of commentary out there about it being technically impossible for re-skins to be as good as new manufacture. I wouldn’t reskin anything that has a current new exact replacement. Good question here - who says that the current capsules out of Sennheiser/Neumann are the same as the originals?
Who says they aren't?
I think this is probably a question for Klaus Heyne - he's on the mic forum at Terry Manning's PRW site.
I can say. I have 5 KMi bodies and have purchased two new KK84 capsules recently from Sennheiser. Have I taken comprehensive test measurements of the frequency response and diaphragm tensions.....no, but they sound identical to my other KK84 capsules.
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km84s
Aug 3, 2018 11:39:43 GMT -6
EmRR likes this
Post by spindrift on Aug 3, 2018 11:39:43 GMT -6
We all know that Neumann still make the KK84 capsule for the KM84 body, and that they are interchangeable with the KK83 (Omni) and KK85 (Cardioid with bass roll-off) capsules, but question is, do they also still make the KK83 capsule? Be nice to have the option of Omni or Cardioid... Or should I just go for a pair of those Beezneez plastic monstrosities? www.beesneezmicrophones.com.au/store/omni-ball-for-neumann-km84-km-84.htmlYes, I recently purchased new KK83 capsules for my KMi bodies too. Goodness all around.
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Deleted
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km84s
Aug 3, 2018 11:59:06 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2018 11:59:06 GMT -6
OMFG, I was expecting the answer to be negative... Do they cost the same as the KK84?
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km84s
Aug 3, 2018 12:08:03 GMT -6
Post by Mister Chase on Aug 3, 2018 12:08:03 GMT -6
Good question here - who says that the current capsules out of Sennheiser/Neumann are the same as the originals?
Who says they aren't?
I think this is probably a question for Klaus Heyne - he's on the mic forum at Terry Manning's PRW site.
I can say. I have 5 KMi bodies and have purchased two new KK84 capsules recently from Sennheiser. Have I taken comprehensive test measurements of the frequency response and diaphragm tensions.....no, but they sound identical to my other KK84 capsules. That is excellent to hear.
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Post by spindrift on Aug 3, 2018 12:20:20 GMT -6
OMFG, I was expecting the answer to be negative... Do they cost the same as the KK84? If I remember right, they were a touch more expensive but not a bunch more. Find a good dealer who you can work with....I didn't pay retail. Johnkenn
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 3, 2018 12:24:21 GMT -6
Yeah - I can get these and beat anyone's price.
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Deleted
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km84s
Aug 3, 2018 12:26:38 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2018 12:26:38 GMT -6
Really? I was gonna jokingly post in your thread "Hit me up.." about Neumann capsules but thought better of it... Will PM!
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