ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,985
|
Post by ericn on May 1, 2018 9:03:59 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by Ned Ward on May 1, 2018 9:19:36 GMT -6
No surprise - with the buying spree Henry J went on, it loaded the company up with debt. Add in the stupid "enhancements" to the 2015 line (zero fret, Tronic Tuning, etc.) and Henry J firing the head of Sales and the Custom Shop last year, this company has always been one step away from self-destructing. The CEO has killed more companies from acquisition than any other I can think of recently in the music business. Henry thought he was smarter than everyone else...
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on May 1, 2018 9:29:13 GMT -6
How in the world is the guy still hanging on? At least it's only for another year...
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,985
|
Post by ericn on May 1, 2018 9:35:17 GMT -6
How in the world is the guy still hanging on? At least it's only for another year... Because the key to the idea of success in business these day seams to be growth not profit! You can get all these funds and venture capital companies to buy in if they believe the business will grow. Then they cash out selling it to some other funds and VC and they repeat the cycle. Oh to be the 1 percent in America.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on May 1, 2018 10:28:12 GMT -6
No shit. The EXACT same thing that caused (well, one of them) the Mortgage Crisis. Package, resell, package, resale, package, resale. Crazy that there are suckers that will buy stuff without knowing what they're buying.
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on May 1, 2018 10:30:51 GMT -6
Money for nothin,,,
|
|
|
Post by mcirish on May 1, 2018 10:40:53 GMT -6
I wonder how this affects Gibson's mandolin making. Dave Harvey and his team are making some of the best mandolins since the Loyd Loar era nearly 100 years ago. It would be horrible for that to end. Yes... I'm a mandolin geek. Talk about expensive hobbies...
|
|
|
Post by kilroyrock on May 1, 2018 10:41:06 GMT -6
No shit. The EXACT same thing that caused (well, one of them) the Mortgage Crisis. Package, resell, package, resale, package, resale. Crazy that there are suckers that will buy stuff without knowing what they're buying. it doesn't help when a bank only needs to hold 10% of the amount of the loan they're giving. 100k of real money gives you 1 million to get loan interest from. Dudes in europe got fined like 5 billion for the crap they were pulling. Here, they just continue to get away with it.
|
|
|
Post by ragan on May 1, 2018 10:59:20 GMT -6
Not very surprising to me given the relationship we allow between the financial class and the political class. Banks are the biggest welfare recipients this nation has ever seen. I remember listening to an interview with a bunch of bankers at a Manhattan bar right in the middle of the economic collapse (which they caused, broadly speaking). These dudes were snide little shits whining about how the citizenry was stupid and ungrateful for what they (the bankers) do for the world. This was literally right in the middle of them getting a check for a gazillion dollars from all of us because they tanked the economy with their fraudulent practices. It was wild hearing these entitled-frat-boys working at daddy’s frat-bro’s firm snickering to one another.
|
|
|
Post by guitfiddler on May 1, 2018 11:03:07 GMT -6
Or you can be like me and get squeezed out of the competition and get dropped right out of contract because you can’t compete with multi-billionaire companies. Thankfully I found another company to pick me up!
|
|
|
Post by guitfiddler on May 1, 2018 11:06:09 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by svart on May 1, 2018 11:17:50 GMT -6
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,985
|
Post by ericn on May 1, 2018 11:18:35 GMT -6
Fractional Reserve Banking can be good thing with proper governance, one of the big things that in the past kept the system stable was that banks were banks, brokerages were brokerages and insurance companies were insurance companies, as the system was deregulated and there was cross pollination and the real value of the reserve funds was diluted. One major factor for the argument for banking regulation and other financial ventures is that at the end of the day it is us the tax paying public underwrite the insurance of banking and are the ones who pay to pick up the pieces when it falls apart because somebody gamed the system! The other fun part of all this is that we are the money that moves the giant shell game that fuels these funds. The cash that s big institutional investors, that’s our pensions, 401k’s etc!
The scary part is to big to fail is real scary and we have done nothing about it! If Wells Fargo was not a huge financial institution with all of the organized scams we would tear them apart for racketeering , but that would nose dive the economy,
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on May 1, 2018 11:23:26 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by svart on May 1, 2018 11:36:17 GMT -6
Not very surprising to me given the relationship we allow between the financial class and the political class. Banks are the biggest welfare recipients this nation has ever seen. I remember listening to an interview with a bunch of bankers at a Manhattan bar right in the middle of the economic collapse (which they caused, broadly speaking). These dudes were snide little shits whining about how the citizenry was stupid and ungrateful for what they (the bankers) do for the world. This was literally right in the middle of them getting a check for a gazillion dollars from all of us because they tanked the economy with their fraudulent practices. It was wild hearing these entitled-frat-boys working at daddy’s frat-bro’s firm snickering to one another. Except that without the greed of the customer base, they never would have sold a single thing. Bankers made more due to selling more, and the consumer wanted free money just as much as the bankers did. Everyone loves to place blame on certain people, it's an easy way for people to categorize the world around themselves, but it's disingenuous to think the "bankers did it" without seeing that they only provided a service to those who demanded it, regardless of the ethics of it all. The truth is that it was politics that started it but everyone wanted a piece of the low rates, which were essentially easy money. Bill Clinton removed the pieces of the bills that required separation of investments(Glass-Steagall), and put forth legislation that required banks to make a certain percentage of their loans to lower-income people that wouldn't normally be eligible for loans (1995 Community reinvestment act), also pressured HUD into buying up large amounts of subprime loans, and forced regulators to hold bank expansions until they complied with subprime lending as well. Banks would sell back to FannyMae/FreddieMac and the Fed kept cutting rates to keep the "warm and fuzzy" period going as long as possible before the inevitable crash due to inflation. The Fed had to start raising rates to slow the inflation, but that strained the 30+ million subprime loan payers and the house of cards would collapse when coupled with Dubya and his finance guys ignoring all the red flags for 8 years and you have a housing/banking crisis in the making.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on May 1, 2018 11:37:52 GMT -6
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,985
|
Post by ericn on May 1, 2018 11:44:58 GMT -6
It will be interesting to see who owes Gibson $$ and how old that dept is, this could get real ugly and if they get back to basics who pays what for Gibson’s buying spree. Will somebody else think they can do it better?
|
|
|
Post by levon on May 1, 2018 11:53:28 GMT -6
As long as greed is the driving factor for everything in this world, nothing will change. It's time to put humans before profit again. Gibson was once a proud company that made fantastic products, hopefully somebody will take the company back there. That is, if banks and politics let him or her, whoever it will be. Banks and Wall Street are the biggest crooks of them all. Money is not everything, but some idiots, especially those in 'high places', have still not noticed that the world is changing. I'm glad I bought my Les Pauls when I did.
|
|
|
Post by svart on May 1, 2018 12:37:36 GMT -6
There's talk that Bonamassa might buy Gibson.. But that might just be unfounded rumor.
|
|
|
Post by ragan on May 1, 2018 14:42:15 GMT -6
Not very surprising to me given the relationship we allow between the financial class and the political class. Banks are the biggest welfare recipients this nation has ever seen. I remember listening to an interview with a bunch of bankers at a Manhattan bar right in the middle of the economic collapse (which they caused, broadly speaking). These dudes were snide little shits whining about how the citizenry was stupid and ungrateful for what they (the bankers) do for the world. This was literally right in the middle of them getting a check for a gazillion dollars from all of us because they tanked the economy with their fraudulent practices. It was wild hearing these entitled-frat-boys working at daddy’s frat-bro’s firm snickering to one another. Except that without the greed of the customer base, they never would have sold a single thing. Bankers made more due to selling more, and the consumer wanted free money just as much as the bankers did. Everyone loves to place blame on certain people, it's an easy way for people to categorize the world around themselves, but it's disingenuous to think the "bankers did it" without seeing that they only provided a service to those who demanded it, regardless of the ethics of it all. The truth is that it was politics that started it but everyone wanted a piece of the low rates, which were essentially easy money. Bill Clinton removed the pieces of the bills that required separation of investments(Glass-Steagall), and put forth legislation that required banks to make a certain percentage of their loans to lower-income people that wouldn't normally be eligible for loans (1995 Community reinvestment act), also pressured HUD into buying up large amounts of subprime loans, and forced regulators to hold bank expansions until they complied with subprime lending as well. Banks would sell back to FannyMae/FreddieMac and the Fed kept cutting rates to keep the "warm and fuzzy" period going as long as possible before the inevitable crash due to inflation. The Fed had to start raising rates to slow the inflation, but that strained the 30+ million subprime loan payers and the house of cards would collapse when coupled with Dubya and his finance guys ignoring all the red flags for 8 years and you have a housing/banking crisis in the making. Yeah I don't really disagree with anything you're saying here.
|
|
|
Post by swurveman on May 1, 2018 16:08:28 GMT -6
Not very surprising to me given the relationship we allow between the financial class and the political class. Banks are the biggest welfare recipients this nation has ever seen. I remember listening to an interview with a bunch of bankers at a Manhattan bar right in the middle of the economic collapse (which they caused, broadly speaking). These dudes were snide little shits whining about how the citizenry was stupid and ungrateful for what they (the bankers) do for the world. This was literally right in the middle of them getting a check for a gazillion dollars from all of us because they tanked the economy with their fraudulent practices. It was wild hearing these entitled-frat-boys working at daddy’s frat-bro’s firm snickering to one another. Except that without the greed of the customer base, they never would have sold a single thing. Bankers made more due to selling more, and the consumer wanted free money just as much as the bankers did. Everyone loves to place blame on certain people, it's an easy way for people to categorize the world around themselves, but it's disingenuous to think the "bankers did it" without seeing that they only provided a service to those who demanded it, regardless of the ethics of it all. The truth is that it was politics that started it but everyone wanted a piece of the low rates, which were essentially easy money. Bill Clinton removed the pieces of the bills that required separation of investments(Glass-Steagall), and put forth legislation that required banks to make a certain percentage of their loans to lower-income people that wouldn't normally be eligible for loans (1995 Community reinvestment act), also pressured HUD into buying up large amounts of subprime loans, and forced regulators to hold bank expansions until they complied with subprime lending as well. Banks would sell back to FannyMae/FreddieMac and the Fed kept cutting rates to keep the "warm and fuzzy" period going as long as possible before the inevitable crash due to inflation. The Fed had to start raising rates to slow the inflation, but that strained the 30+ million subprime loan payers and the house of cards would collapse when coupled with Dubya and his finance guys ignoring all the red flags for 8 years and you have a housing/banking crisis in the making. 1. Virtually none of the $1.5 trillion of the cratering subprime mortgages in 2008 were backed by Fannie or Freddie. 2. Nobody forced four of the five too big to fail banks to leverage at 30-1 ratios. 3. They leveraged at those levels due to an unregulated banking system, which conducted an enormous amount of trading activity in the OTC derivatives market, which grew rapidly in the decade up to the 2008 financial crisis reaching over US$650 trillion in contracts traded. AIG-an insurance company- insured a lot of those contracts that they eventually couldn't cover when the true nature of how reckless the big banks were came to roost. Bye bye "free market sophisticated bankers who need to be left alone to spin gold out of nothing", hello "we love government bailouts". These guys hate government regulation, all the while knowing that whatever they do to fuck up, government will save them. Whenever these kind of threads pop up, I am reminded of a scene from Chinatown where Evelyn Mulwray turns to Jake who wants Evelyn to "let the police handle this" - regarding her powerful and corrupt father- says, "He owns the police". Just so, Wall Street owns our government.
|
|
|
Post by matt on May 1, 2018 16:37:24 GMT -6
I hope Gibson comes out of Chapter 11 lean and mean, focussed on making guitars. Time to go back to their roots. My 2015 J-200 Parlor is simply the best guitar I've ever owned and my bassist's left-hand 2018 J-200 is even better. They are astonishing instruments. The fit/finish, playability and tonality of these guitars is beyond reproach. The legacy of this brand has earned it another chance in the marketplace- with new management, of course. The current batch has joined the long, sad list of bad businessmen who drive viable, valuable businesses into the ground in the name of leveraged expansion. Debt kills, it's that simple.
|
|
|
Post by Tbone81 on May 1, 2018 16:48:49 GMT -6
Except that without the greed of the customer base, they never would have sold a single thing. Bankers made more due to selling more, and the consumer wanted free money just as much as the bankers did. Everyone loves to place blame on certain people, it's an easy way for people to categorize the world around themselves, but it's disingenuous to think the "bankers did it" without seeing that they only provided a service to those who demanded it, regardless of the ethics of it all. The truth is that it was politics that started it but everyone wanted a piece of the low rates, which were essentially easy money. Bill Clinton removed the pieces of the bills that required separation of investments(Glass-Steagall), and put forth legislation that required banks to make a certain percentage of their loans to lower-income people that wouldn't normally be eligible for loans (1995 Community reinvestment act), also pressured HUD into buying up large amounts of subprime loans, and forced regulators to hold bank expansions until they complied with subprime lending as well. Banks would sell back to FannyMae/FreddieMac and the Fed kept cutting rates to keep the "warm and fuzzy" period going as long as possible before the inevitable crash due to inflation. The Fed had to start raising rates to slow the inflation, but that strained the 30+ million subprime loan payers and the house of cards would collapse when coupled with Dubya and his finance guys ignoring all the red flags for 8 years and you have a housing/banking crisis in the making. 1. Virtually none of the $1.5 trillion of the cratering subprime mortgages in 2008 were backed by Fannie or Freddie. Care to elaborate on that point? Not being snarky here but that's contrary to a lot of what I've read. By late 2008 Fannie/Freddie owned or backed upwards of $300 Billion in bad debt (subprime mortgages).
|
|
|
Post by svart on May 1, 2018 16:56:55 GMT -6
Except that without the greed of the customer base, they never would have sold a single thing. Bankers made more due to selling more, and the consumer wanted free money just as much as the bankers did. Everyone loves to place blame on certain people, it's an easy way for people to categorize the world around themselves, but it's disingenuous to think the "bankers did it" without seeing that they only provided a service to those who demanded it, regardless of the ethics of it all. The truth is that it was politics that started it but everyone wanted a piece of the low rates, which were essentially easy money. Bill Clinton removed the pieces of the bills that required separation of investments(Glass-Steagall), and put forth legislation that required banks to make a certain percentage of their loans to lower-income people that wouldn't normally be eligible for loans (1995 Community reinvestment act), also pressured HUD into buying up large amounts of subprime loans, and forced regulators to hold bank expansions until they complied with subprime lending as well. Banks would sell back to FannyMae/FreddieMac and the Fed kept cutting rates to keep the "warm and fuzzy" period going as long as possible before the inevitable crash due to inflation. The Fed had to start raising rates to slow the inflation, but that strained the 30+ million subprime loan payers and the house of cards would collapse when coupled with Dubya and his finance guys ignoring all the red flags for 8 years and you have a housing/banking crisis in the making. 1. Virtually none of the $1.5 trillion of the cratering subprime mortgages in 2008 were backed by Fannie or Freddie. 2. Nobody forced four of the five too big to fail banks to leverage at 30-1 ratios. 3. They leveraged at those levels due to an unregulated banking system, which conducted an enormous amount of trading activity in the OTC derivatives market, which grew rapidly in the decade up to the 2008 financial crisis reaching over US$650 trillion in contracts traded. AIG-an insurance company- insured a lot of those contracts that they eventually couldn't cover when the true nature of how reckless the big banks were came to roost. Bye bye "free market sophisticated bankers who need to be left alone to spin gold out of nothing", hello "we love government bailouts". These guys hate government regulation, all the while knowing that whatever they do to fuck up, government will save them. Whenever these kind of threads pop up, I am reminded of a scene from Chinatown where Evelyn Mulwray turns to Jake who wants Evelyn to "let the police handle this" - regarding her powerful and corrupt father- says, "He owns the police". Just so, Wall Street owns our government. Some of this has been found to be untrue. Numbers including the bundled bonds, loans, holdings and mortgages for fm/fm were somewhere in the ballpark of half of the total.. 800B. And most of the big Banks were not just loaning at high ratios for no reason. Fm/fm had the distinct privilege of being able to borrow from the Fed at much lower than subprime, which forced the banks into a "me-too, or I'll go out of business" approach in order to stay competitive in the market. Again, politics and good old fashioned cronyism between Congress, the Fed, and fm/fm creating a strangle hold on the economy as usual.
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on May 1, 2018 17:04:57 GMT -6
I hope Gibson comes out of Chapter 11 lean and mean, focussed on making guitars. Time to go back to their roots. My 2015 J-200 Parlor is simply the best guitar I've ever owned and my bassist's left-hand 2018 J-200 is even better. They are astonishing instruments. The fit/finish, playability and tonality of these guitars is beyond reproach. The legacy of this brand has earned it another chance in the marketplace- with new management, of course. The current batch has joined the long, sad list of bad businessmen who drive viable, valuable businesses into the ground in the name of leveraged expansion. Debt kills, it's that simple. Not doubting the quality of your guitar, but that ain't no J-200. The "J" stands for "Jumbo", it's not a letter chosen at random out of a hat. You can't have a parlor size jumbo, it's an oxymoron. It's typical of Henry's disrespect for the tradition of his own company. The proper designation should be P-200. As to Gibson coming out focused on making guitars, I doubt it, considering that the new people in control are hedge fund MBAs, not guitar people. I wonder how long it'll take to ship manufacturing offshore to China or Korea.... I hope I'm wrong...
|
|