|
Post by donr on May 3, 2018 23:56:22 GMT -6
If whoever is Gibson going forward can make the core instruments with sufficient quality, the brand will survive.
But the Henry J era has been two decades of missteps.
|
|
|
Post by kilroyrock on May 4, 2018 4:23:31 GMT -6
That's where you have lost touch. All current pop stars were playing guitar hero ten years ago on PlayStation 2 as teenagers. They then set out to play and demand the Rockstar guitars they played, by Gibson and fender. If they chose an amp in these games, the boutique amp market would not be so strong, as the video game era children would demand only two amps. Marshall and fender. Remember orange was not readily available new in shops until 2003-ish. Those you could find were 1500-2k. If I didn't play music already I would have been looking for anything fender or Gibson. CEO banked on that. It failed. The internet won. It taught the new era of impulse purchase to follow the forum trends. Guitar heroes are now only in classic rock again. There is way more than pop music... Just a few, Julian Lage Blake Mills JOHN MAYER Eric Tessmer Tons of badass popular guitarists out and about that play all sorts of guitars and amps Oh, I know, and Mayer is now selling PRS guitars. Endorsement is probably better because Fender doesn't need signature models as much anymore. I'm not sure what the push back is, marketing is marketing. John Mayer is pop music, and a brilliant guitarist, but he doesn't get radio play on his guitar solo songs. Btw, I am a rock player, love guitars, hell my son's name is Gibson. I want them to get back to guitars and only guitars. Those sunburst studio monitors were a joke.
|
|
|
Post by jeremygillespie on May 4, 2018 5:56:14 GMT -6
Did they sell any of those monitors? They were pretty much the definition of ugly!
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,011
Member is Online
|
Post by ericn on May 4, 2018 6:23:35 GMT -6
There is way more than pop music... Just a few, Julian Lage Blake Mills JOHN MAYER Eric Tessmer Tons of badass popular guitarists out and about that play all sorts of guitars and amps Oh, I know, and Mayer is now selling PRS guitars. Endorsement is probably better because Fender doesn't need signature models as much anymore. I'm not sure what the push back is, marketing is marketing. John Mayer is pop music, and a brilliant guitarist, but he doesn't get radio play on his guitar solo songs. Btw, I am a rock player, love guitars, hell my son's name is Gibson. I want them to get back to guitars and only guitars. Those sunburst studio monitors were a joke. Mayer has been pop music an adult can consistently llisten to, also Love his Alembics, but hey when you tour with the remains of the Dead what to going to play? Oh my wife refused to name our son Rupert 🤨
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on May 4, 2018 10:17:54 GMT -6
What does Guitar Hero have to do with real amplifiers? What does Guitar Hero have to do with anything besides playing games? That's where you have lost touch. All current pop stars were playing guitar hero ten years ago on PlayStation 2 as teenagers. They then set out to play and demand the Rockstar guitars they played, by Gibson and fender. If they chose an amp in these games, the boutique amp market would not be so strong, as the video game era children would demand only two amps. Marshall and fender. Remember orange was not readily available new in shops until 2003-ish. Those you could find were 1500-2k. If I didn't play music already I would have been looking for anything fender or Gibson. CEO banked on that. It failed. The internet won. It taught the new era of impulse purchase to follow the forum trends. Guitar heroes are now only in classic rock again. Current pop stars play guitar? And judging by the Purple Place, the youngsters are playing stuff like Ibanez a lot, not Gibson. Ibanez and Fender.
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on May 4, 2018 10:19:42 GMT -6
If whoever is Gibson going forward can make the core instruments with sufficient quality, the brand will survive. But the Henry J era has been two decades of missteps. The Henry J brand of cars didn't last, either.
|
|
|
Post by kilroyrock on May 4, 2018 10:23:04 GMT -6
If whoever is Gibson going forward can make the core instruments with sufficient quality, the brand will survive. But the Henry J era has been two decades of missteps. The Henry J brand of cars didn't last, either. I hear the 80's Gibsons are junk too. cross your fingers!
|
|
|
Post by kilroyrock on May 4, 2018 10:32:30 GMT -6
That's where you have lost touch. All current pop stars were playing guitar hero ten years ago on PlayStation 2 as teenagers. They then set out to play and demand the Rockstar guitars they played, by Gibson and fender. If they chose an amp in these games, the boutique amp market would not be so strong, as the video game era children would demand only two amps. Marshall and fender. Remember orange was not readily available new in shops until 2003-ish. Those you could find were 1500-2k. If I didn't play music already I would have been looking for anything fender or Gibson. CEO banked on that. It failed. The internet won. It taught the new era of impulse purchase to follow the forum trends. Guitar heroes are now only in classic rock again. Current pop stars play guitar? And judging by the Purple Place, the youngsters are playing stuff like Ibanez a lot, not Gibson. Ibanez and Fender. That "cake by the ocean" song has a band, that was recorded to sound like a dance pop hit. similar story to maroon 5's first album, i learned from listening to the old podcast from hell, except they were a little too early for the trend and had to step it back when pop punk was the radio competition, remixed to a rock sound, but now then laid down the familiar pop dance rock sound that's now all over rock stations. fall out boy is a perfect example of a good rock band that followed the trend into meh. They played Gibsons and Fenders, until endorsements came in. Now there is a Gretsch signature. Gibson started pricing themselves out of the starter category, Fender and ibanez sell $400 guitars, with the squire's being their first, until they are "ready" for a professional MIM Fender black sunburst strat Pop stars play with bands live, because it's really boring to watch someone run around to an mp3. Nobody trusts that, whether they sing it or not, thanks to Ashlee Simpson's stunt on SNL.
|
|
|
Post by donr on May 4, 2018 15:23:18 GMT -6
If whoever is Gibson going forward can make the core instruments with sufficient quality, the brand will survive. But the Henry J era has been two decades of missteps. The Henry J brand of cars didn't last, either. Ha, Gramps, showing your age there. My Dad had a Kaiser in the mid '50's. Right around the time Les Paul and Mary Ford recorded "How High The Moon."
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on May 4, 2018 19:48:36 GMT -6
Current pop stars play guitar? And judging by the Purple Place, the youngsters are playing stuff like Ibanez a lot, not Gibson. Ibanez and Fender. That "cake by the ocean" song has a band, that was recorded to sound like a dance pop hit. similar story to maroon 5's first album, i learned from listening to the old podcast from hell, except they were a little too early for the trend and had to step it back when pop punk was the radio competition, remixed to a rock sound, but now then laid down the familiar pop dance rock sound that's now all over rock stations. fall out boy is a perfect example of a good rock band that followed the trend into meh. They played Gibsons and Fenders, until endorsements came in. Now there is a Gretsch signature. Gibson started pricing themselves out of the starter category, Fender and ibanez sell $400 guitars, with the squire's being their first, until they are "ready" for a professional MIM Fender black sunburst strat Pop stars play with bands live, because it's really boring to watch someone run around to an mp3. Nobody trusts that, whether they sing it or not, thanks to Ashlee Simpson's stunt on SNL. Maroon 5 and all their ilk make me barf. And to judge by the nosediving popularity of such acts I'm probably not alone.
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on May 4, 2018 20:01:24 GMT -6
I'm not afraid to admit, I love this tune. Great pop song.
|
|
|
Post by M57 on May 4, 2018 20:18:14 GMT -6
I'm not afraid to admit, I love this tune. Great pop song. You should be ashamed.. ..but it does have a damn good hook.
|
|
|
Post by Calvin on May 5, 2018 1:58:11 GMT -6
I'm not afraid to admit, I love this tune. Great pop song. Unless my memory is greatly diminished (a distinct possibility), this tune was produced by Matt Wallace. One of my first recording experiences in a "real" studio took place in Matt's little (and I do mean little) place he built in his parent's garage. Tascam 8 track, control room that was maybe 6 feet deep, etc. No idea how he was able to generate anything listenable in that space, but he did. I've gone on to do a lot more recording since that time, but one of the pieces I enjoy listening to the most from that bygone era came out of that garage. He had a lovely Echoplex that I took full advantage of. Fun memories. OK, that was a bit off-topic. On topic, I'm hoping Gibson can come out of this with owners that will honor the brand and figure out a way to get back to making quality instruments. It's a tough environment for larger-scale guitar-makers out there. I really, really hope guitar-based popular music makes a come-back at some point, but that may be wishful thinking. It was a darn good run. Some amazing, amazing music was made over the past half century, much of it made with Gibson instruments.
|
|
|
Post by levon on May 5, 2018 3:04:52 GMT -6
I saw Maroon 5 in a small club in Germany right when they released their first album. One of the best concerts I've ever seen. I saw them again, a few years and 15 million-records-sold later. It was a disgrace. Worst concert I've ever seen. Terrible rock-star attitude, bad playing, left after 45 minutes. Maroon 5 died after that first album.
|
|
|
Post by kilroyrock on May 8, 2018 21:24:25 GMT -6
I'm not afraid to admit, I love this tune. Great pop song. Unless my memory is greatly diminished (a distinct possibility), this tune was produced by Matt Wallace. One of my first recording experiences in a "real" studio took place in Matt's little (and I do mean little) place he built in his parent's garage. Tascam 8 track, control room that was maybe 6 feet deep, etc. No idea how he was able to generate anything listenable in that space, but he did. I've gone on to do a lot more recording since that time, but one of the pieces I enjoy listening to the most from that bygone era came out of that garage. He had a lovely Echoplex that I took full advantage of. Fun memories. OK, that was a bit off-topic. On topic, I'm hoping Gibson can come out of this with owners that will honor the brand and figure out a way to get back to making quality instruments. It's a tough environment for larger-scale guitar-makers out there. I really, really hope guitar-based popular music makes a come-back at some point, but that may be wishful thinking. It was a darn good run. Some amazing, amazing music was made over the past half century, much of it made with Gibson instruments. One of the dude from podcast from hell worked with Matt Wallace, had him on it and did I believe a 2 part show with him. Incredibly insightful
|
|
|
Post by donr on May 8, 2018 23:31:45 GMT -6
It occured to me, this night, that the real skill in AE today is to make a musical recording musical while dealing with a DR of 6-10 dB, making it sock and maintain every dB of the available dynamics within the constraint.
Even if it's not the best auditory display of the source.
I don't like loud masters, but here's two I thought provoking and sucessful at the time.. But they both sound too loud to me today.
Maroon 5- "If I Never See Your Face.."
Third Eye Blind "Semi-Charmed Life"
|
|
|
Post by kilroyrock on May 9, 2018 21:29:37 GMT -6
It's all about the artificial dynamic,the on off,not the soft and loud. The "go to only bass, them cut back in".it is now required, instead of a cool effect. Distorted guitars and loudness wars made this the norm. P.s. Gibson.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,011
Member is Online
|
Post by ericn on May 10, 2018 7:52:43 GMT -6
The big question on this is if the debt holders see the Guitar operation as a long term investment or as a source of quick cash that will pay them off and “stabilize” the crap that put Gibson in this position.
Example there are large stockholders that want GE to sell Healthcare, jet engines and power plant divisions to stabilize the rest of the company. Guess what parts of GE are the most profitable long term?
|
|
|
Post by jazznoise on May 11, 2018 8:50:01 GMT -6
I hope whoever buys them can turn the Gibson into a sellable product. They were always too expensive and too fragile for us. Modern consumers want affordable instruments and they understand they won't last forever. My Squire Jaguar is on the bus with me right now - stays in tune, I've done a lot of shows with it and any maintenance has been done at home. Hard to argue with
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on May 12, 2018 8:22:32 GMT -6
There's talk that Bonamassa might buy Gibson.. But that might just be unfounded rumor. That was a meme, or to borrow a phrase "Fake news." I heard Gibson has a revenue of over 1 billion dollars per year. That's a lot to work with. My guitar teacher had a Heritage back in the late '90s. That was one of only a handful of times I've ever seen one in person.
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on May 12, 2018 16:48:09 GMT -6
I hope whoever buys them can turn the Gibson into a sellable product. They were always too expensive and too fragile for us. Modern consumers want affordable instruments and they understand they won't last forever. My Squire Jaguar is on the bus with me right now - stays in tune, I've done a lot of shows with it and any maintenance has been done at home. Hard to argue with No. Absolutely not. Gibson has attempted to emulate Fender in the past and has always failed. What was that 3 pickup, bolt-on abortion of the Norlin era? The S-1? And let's not forget the late, unlamented Sonex. Nobody wants those, not even now when they're rare (because nobody bought them.) Gibson is Gibson. The road to recovery is to BE GIBSON. That means making a QUALITY INSTRUMENT, not cutting corners and raising prices. And that means having the company run by GUITAR PEOPLE, not biniss dweebs. People who buy quality instruments understand is that they're generally more delicate than beaters. Stradivarius violins have lasted hundreds of years. My J-200 is 59 years old. It's had some repairs over the years but it's still in fine shape and there's no reason it won't be in another 100 years with proper maintenance. If you want a cut rate, cheapened Gibson buy an Epiphone. Gibson needs to go back to the core product line and to stop making 37 different versions of each. You want custom paint? Order it, pay the premium, and wait 6 months, the way it used to be under CMI. You want fancy inlay? Ditto. Special pickups? Install 'em yourself or have you local guy do it. And stop trying to pass off cheap machine made instruments as hand crafted or hand finished. Even a blind man can see that they're not.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on May 12, 2018 17:46:57 GMT -6
I hope whoever buys them can turn the Gibson into a sellable product. They were always too expensive and too fragile for us. Modern consumers want affordable instruments and they understand they won't last forever. My Squire Jaguar is on the bus with me right now - stays in tune, I've done a lot of shows with it and any maintenance has been done at home. Hard to argue with No. Absolutely not. Gibson has attempted to emulate Fender in the past and has always failed. What was that 3 pickup, bolt-on abortion of the Norlin era? The S-1? And let's not forget the late, unlamented Sonex. Nobody wants those, not even now when they're rare (because nobody bought them.) Gibson is Gibson. The road to recovery is to BE GIBSON. That means making a QUALITY INSTRUMENT, not cutting corners and raising prices. And that means having the company run by GUITAR PEOPLE, not biniss dweebs. People who buy quality instruments understand that they're generally more delicate than beaters. Stradivarius violins have lasted hundreds of years. My J-200 is 59 years old. It's had some repairs over the years but it's still in fine shape and there's no reason it won't be in another 100 years with proper maintenance. If you want a cut rate, cheapened Gibson buy an Epiphone. Gibson needs to go back to the core product line and to stop making 37 different versions of each. You want custom paint? Order it, pay the premium, and wait 6 months, the way it used to be under CMI. You want fancy inlay? Ditto. Special pickups? Install 'em yourself or have you local guy do it. And stop trying to pass off cheap machine made instruments as hand crafted or hand finished. Even a blind man can see that they're not. They are at a really weird place of "Mass produced high end instruments" it's almost a contradiction in terms or a Paradox of sorts... PRS seems to be wearing it well, I might add. Maybe Taylor as well on the acoustic end of things.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,011
Member is Online
|
Post by ericn on May 12, 2018 17:52:41 GMT -6
I hope whoever buys them can turn the Gibson into a sellable product. They were always too expensive and too fragile for us. Modern consumers want affordable instruments and they understand they won't last forever. My Squire Jaguar is on the bus with me right now - stays in tune, I've done a lot of shows with it and any maintenance has been done at home. Hard to argue with No. Absolutely not. Gibson has attempted to emulate Fender in the past and has always failed. What was that 3 pickup, bolt-on abortion of the Norlin era? The S-1? And let's not forget the late, unlamented Sonex. Nobody wants those, not even now when they're rare (because nobody bought them.) Gibson is Gibson. The road to recovery is to BE GIBSON. That means making a QUALITY INSTRUMENT, not cutting corners and raising prices. And that means having the company run by GUITAR PEOPLE, not biniss dweebs. People who buy quality instruments understand that they're generally more delicate than beaters. Stradivarius violins have lasted hundreds of years. My J-200 is 59 years old. It's had some repairs over the years but it's still in fine shape and there's no reason it won't be in another 100 years with proper maintenance. If you want a cut rate, cheapened Gibson buy an Epiphone. Gibson needs to go back to the core product line and to stop making 37 different versions of each. You want custom paint? Order it, pay the premium, and wait 6 months, the way it used to be under CMI. You want fancy inlay? Ditto. Special pickups? Install 'em yourself or have you local guy do it. And stop trying to pass off cheap machine made instruments as hand crafted or hand finished. Even a blind man can see that they're not. No John my friend respectfully you need business people running Gibson who understand the value of the Gibson brand is quality stringed instruments and Epihone is Quality value priced instruments. A group of guitar guys who are not business people would run it into the ground. It is just to big of a company to not have experienced business people in charge be they guitar people or not, actually a decent turnaround specialist might be the best thing in the short term to set a stable long term course for Gibson. The guitar community may not like or understand some of the choices in the short term that may have to be made to make Gibson , The Gibson again, but we don’t have the books in front of us to know what’s really what. In the modern age people have forgotten that there is a huge difference between income and profit and shor and long term. Gibson needs somebody at the helm who is smart enough to know when the guitar guy is the guy to listen to and when the accountant is without bias. Years ago I met the guy who turned around Pepsi and a number of other big companies, he wasn’t a soda guy.
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on May 12, 2018 19:44:21 GMT -6
No. Absolutely not. Gibson has attempted to emulate Fender in the past and has always failed. What was that 3 pickup, bolt-on abortion of the Norlin era? The S-1? And let's not forget the late, unlamented Sonex. Nobody wants those, not even now when they're rare (because nobody bought them.) Gibson is Gibson. The road to recovery is to BE GIBSON. That means making a QUALITY INSTRUMENT, not cutting corners and raising prices. And that means having the company run by GUITAR PEOPLE, not biniss dweebs. People who buy quality instruments understand that they're generally more delicate than beaters. Stradivarius violins have lasted hundreds of years. My J-200 is 59 years old. It's had some repairs over the years but it's still in fine shape and there's no reason it won't be in another 100 years with proper maintenance. If you want a cut rate, cheapened Gibson buy an Epiphone. Gibson needs to go back to the core product line and to stop making 37 different versions of each. You want custom paint? Order it, pay the premium, and wait 6 months, the way it used to be under CMI. You want fancy inlay? Ditto. Special pickups? Install 'em yourself or have you local guy do it. And stop trying to pass off cheap machine made instruments as hand crafted or hand finished. Even a blind man can see that they're not. No John my friend respectfully you need business people running Gibson who understand the value of the Gibson brand is quality stringed instruments and Epihone is Quality value priced instruments. A group of guitar guys who are not business people would run it into the ground. I respectfully subnmit that "business people running Gibson who understand the value of the Gibson brand" is an oxymoron. It has been proven over and over, more times than I want to think about. Fender succeeded because the people who took over them were guitar people from the old company, not MBA outsiders and certainly not vulture capitalists. The people in control MUST be guitar people and craftsmen, with any business types being totally subservient. Once you let the MBAs seize control you're dead. No. It's OK to have bidness people in the middle ranks but they must NOT be allowed to make decisions regarding the overall direction of the company. Because any decisions they make will be in favor of short term profit, not art. And not long term longevity, because they're not taught to value that in bidness skool. This has been proven over and over again in the destruction of American Industry over the last 50 years. Put them in control and they will ALWAYS decide to line their own pockets and those of the "shareholders" over long term longevity. Why wouldn't they? They won't be around in 20 years. They don't teach sustainability in bidness skool. They teach industrioal rape. And please don't hold up Pepsi as an example - they clear cut rainforest to plant palm oil trees and steal our spring water for hundredths of a cent per gallons and retail it for dollars and dollars, while people in the regions they operate in don't have potable water.. Pepsi and Nestle are two of the worst offenders in the foodstuffs industry. No, he's not a soda guy - he's an industrial pirate of the worst order.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 13, 2018 6:35:44 GMT -6
If you want a cut rate, cheapened Gibson buy an Epiphone. Gibson needs to go back to the core product line and to stop making 37 different versions of each. You want custom paint? Order it, pay the premium, and wait 6 months, the way it used to be under CMI. You want fancy inlay? Ditto. Special pickups? Install 'em yourself or have you local guy do it. And stop trying to pass off cheap machine made instruments as hand crafted or hand finished. Even a blind man can see that they're not. Can't agree with on the Epiphone remark. I've owned a number of Gibsons in the past (all gone now), but have a couple of Epis (Les Paul Standard Pro and Broadway). They're both solid and playable instruments, the Broadway in particular. It's based on the L5-CES and comes in at about a tenth the price. It's been strung very heavy for years and the neck has held its shape beautifully. The acoustic output is strong and the pickups are fine. There are a few details in the finish and trim that don't match up to the Gibson, but that's just visual. It's a fine guitar. The Les is pretty good as well. I will agree with you on the proliferation of versions. Seems like once upon a time there was a gold Les and a black one. Now there seem to be re-issues of every tweaked model that ever existed. The brand seems to be pitched at geezers who always wanted a Gibson and can now afford one. But if I was going to spend that much on a guitar, I'd be looking at a Benedetto. When Steve Jobs returned to Apple, the first thing he did was eliminate just about every Mac on the market. He quickly whittled it down to iMac and Mac Pro. There was great wailing and gnashing of teeth, but it worked like a charm. It was the focus on core competencies. We can only hope that Gibson passes into the hands of someone with both strong business skills and a love of making music. Not many of those.
|
|