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Post by Guitar on May 13, 2018 7:09:50 GMT -6
I've got a couple of pretty nice Epiphones here. A Hummingbird Pro acoustic, and a P93 semi-hollow that I used to gig with as my main stage guitar.
My "Les Pauls," however, are tweaked-out Agile brand instruments. Something about the EPI les paul freaks me out, I have a phobia about them.
I used to have a really nice Dot too. I'd like to have one of those again.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,022
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Post by ericn on May 13, 2018 9:48:35 GMT -6
No John my friend respectfully you need business people running Gibson who understand the value of the Gibson brand is quality stringed instruments and Epihone is Quality value priced instruments. A group of guitar guys who are not business people would run it into the ground. I respectfully subnmit that "business people running Gibson who understand the value of the Gibson brand" is an oxymoron. It has been proven over and over, more times than I want to think about. Fender succeeded because the people who took over them were guitar people from the old company, not MBA outsiders and certainly not vulture capitalists. The people in control MUST be guitar people and craftsmen, with any business types being totally subservient. Once you let the MBAs seize control you're dead. No. It's OK to have bidness people in the middle ranks but they must NOT be allowed to make decisions regarding the overall direction of the company. Because any decisions they make will be in favor of short term profit, not art. And not long term longevity, because they're not taught to value that in bidness skool. This has been proven over and over again in the destruction of American Industry over the last 50 years. Put them in control and they will ALWAYS decide to line their own pockets and those of the "shareholders" over long term longevity. Why wouldn't they? They won't be around in 20 years. They don't teach sustainability in bidness skool. They teach industrioal rape. And please don't hold up Pepsi as an example - they clear cut rainforest to plant palm oil trees and steal our spring water for hundredths of a cent per gallons and retail it for dollars and dollars, while people in the regions they operate in don't have potable water.. Pepsi and Nestle are two of the worst offenders in the foodstuffs industry. No, he's not a soda guy - he's an industrial pirate of the worst order. No John you want a bankruptcy judge is a guitar guy! Gibson has to have a plan that gets its self out of this situation, they need to dump all the stupid stuff they bought, pay off the creditors, bankers and bond holders. They need to not piss off their dealers and suppliers and come out of this strong. Now everybody who they owe pretty much knows the most valuable thing Gibson has is the name Gibson and a auction for the rights to that Name will probably be the one way they walk away from this as close to even as possible! All those fund guys who are saying they want to see Gibson what it once was are lying through their teeth, they know they can walk away with a profit from selling the Name and be happy campers. They all get to tell the judge how they feel about this plan and they do have influence. Ask yourself why now? Just because one business guy, blew it doesn’t mean all business guys are bad, by your logic Kanye voted for Trump every rapper voted for Trump, it just doesn’t wash. Now you can go looking for a guitar guy who knows what he is doing and make this take forever, but that’s going to move it closer to the Gibson name going to the highest bidder or you can find a guy who has brought other companies out of situations like this because he knows the game and is smart enough to do the research and realize Gibson and Epiphone are pretty much all you want to walk away with and their manufacturing facilities and the dealers and key suppliers happy enough that people in Nashville still have their jobs ! Other wise prepare for the new made in China Gibson’s and a couple of nice models made by some small OEM. Yeah it’s guitars, but hate to break this to you making guitars is business, and Gibson is a pretty big business that’s a Giant business mess.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,022
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Post by ericn on May 13, 2018 9:54:35 GMT -6
Oh John, every MI specific anayalist I talk to thinks at best Gibson by Yamaha, every generic business anylist who knows the situation says they need to walk away with just Gibson and Epiphone so it’s the guitar guys who think your wrong and the MBA types who think your right. Who you going cheer for?
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Post by johneppstein on May 13, 2018 11:21:00 GMT -6
If you want a cut rate, cheapened Gibson buy an Epiphone. Gibson needs to go back to the core product line and to stop making 37 different versions of each. You want custom paint? Order it, pay the premium, and wait 6 months, the way it used to be under CMI. You want fancy inlay? Ditto. Special pickups? Install 'em yourself or have you local guy do it. And stop trying to pass off cheap machine made instruments as hand crafted or hand finished. Even a blind man can see that they're not. Can't agree with on the Epiphone remark. I've owned a number of Gibsons in the past (all gone now), but have a couple of Epis (Les Paul Standard Pro and Broadway). They're both solid and playable instruments, the Broadway in particular. It's based on the L5-CES and comes in at about a tenth the price. It's been strung very heavy for years and the neck has held its shape beautifully. The acoustic output is strong and the pickups are fine. There are a few details in the finish and trim that don't match up to the Gibson, but that's just visual. It's a fine guitar. The Les is pretty good as well. I will agree with you on the proliferation of versions. Seems like once upon a time there was a gold Les and a black one. Now there seem to be re-issues of every tweaked model that ever existed. The brand seems to be pitched at geezers who always wanted a Gibson and can now afford one. But if I was going to spend that much on a guitar, I'd be looking at a Benedetto. When Steve Jobs returned to Apple, the first thing he did was eliminate just about every Mac on the market. He quickly whittled it down to iMac and Mac Pro. There was great wailing and gnashing of teeth, but it worked like a charm. It was the focus on core competencies. We can only hope that Gibson passes into the hands of someone with both strong business skills and a love of making music. Not many of those. I did not mean to say that Epiphone does not make good quality workingman's instruments. I own a '56 Goldtop RI that is a great playing instrument and even has pickups as good as many current Gibson P-90s./ (Note the word "current".) I have a '57 LP Jr. RI thart, with the exception of the horrible stock P-100 pickup and the pol;y finish, is a far better instrument than my Gibson branded LP Special of roughly the same age (early 2000s) - with the addition of a Lindy Fralin P-90 it's a GREAT guitar. Are either up to traditional Gibson quality? No, not quite. I also own an Epi LP burst, which is a good gigging guitar but the pickups are a bit weak. It's currently loaned out to my ex-bass player. Somehow, though, it just doesn't have the feel of the real thing. Neither does the goldtop, although it's a great gigging guitar. I have not tried the current Broadway, although I did get to play an original back when I worked for Spitzer Music, which had a couple or 3 vintage Epis from the '40s/'50s
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Post by johneppstein on May 13, 2018 11:33:52 GMT -6
I respectfully subnmit that "business people running Gibson who understand the value of the Gibson brand" is an oxymoron. It has been proven over and over, more times than I want to think about. Fender succeeded because the people who took over them were guitar people from the old company, not MBA outsiders and certainly not vulture capitalists. The people in control MUST be guitar people and craftsmen, with any business types being totally subservient. Once you let the MBAs seize control you're dead. No. It's OK to have bidness people in the middle ranks but they must NOT be allowed to make decisions regarding the overall direction of the company. Because any decisions they make will be in favor of short term profit, not art. And not long term longevity, because they're not taught to value that in bidness skool. This has been proven over and over again in the destruction of American Industry over the last 50 years. Put them in control and they will ALWAYS decide to line their own pockets and those of the "shareholders" over long term longevity. Why wouldn't they? They won't be around in 20 years. They don't teach sustainability in bidness skool. They teach industrioal rape. And please don't hold up Pepsi as an example - they clear cut rainforest to plant palm oil trees and steal our spring water for hundredths of a cent per gallons and retail it for dollars and dollars, while people in the regions they operate in don't have potable water.. Pepsi and Nestle are two of the worst offenders in the foodstuffs industry. No, he's not a soda guy - he's an industrial pirate of the worst order. No John you want a bankruptcy judge is a guitar guy! Gibson has to have a plan that gets its self out of this situation, they need to dump all the stupid stuff they bought, pay off the creditors, bankers and bond holders. They need to not piss off their dealers and suppliers and come out of this strong. Now everybody who they owe pretty much knows the most valuable thing Gibson has is the name Gibson and a auction for the rights to that Name will probably be the one way they walk away from this as close to even as possible! All those fund guys who are saying they want to see Gibson what it once was are lying through their teeth, they know they can walk away with a profit from selling the Name and be happy campers. They all get to tell the judge how they feel about this plan and they do have influence. Ask yourself why now? Just because one business guy, blew it doesn’t mean all business guys are bad, by your logic Kanye voted for Trump every rapper voted for Trump, it just doesn’t wash. Now you can go looking for a guitar guy who knows what he is doing and make this take forever, but that’s going to move it closer to the Gibson name going to the highest bidder or you can find a guy who has brought other companies out of situations like this because he knows the game and is smart enough to do the research and realize Gibson and Epiphone are pretty much all you want to walk away with and their manufacturing facilities and the dealers and key suppliers happy enough that people in Nashville still have their jobs ! Other wise prepare for the new made in China Gibson’s and a couple of nice models made by some small OEM. Yeah it’s guitars, but hate to break this to you making guitars is business, and Gibson is a pretty big business that’s a Giant business mess. You don't quite understand. The problem I'm commenting on is not specific to the musical instrument industry, it's a disease that has infected all American industry after the 1970s, which is the takeover of American industrial icons from the people who came up in, love, and understand their industries by business school types who are interested only in the short term bottom line and showing short term capital "gains" and dividends to the board and stockholders. This has resulted in a lack of long range planning and an epidemic of profit gouging. It has also resulted in an exodus of manufacturing from the USA to overseas countries and takeovers of US countries by foreign capital.
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Post by jazznoise on May 13, 2018 11:38:12 GMT -6
No. Absolutely not. Gibson has attempted to emulate Fender in the past and has always failed. What was that 3 pickup, bolt-on abortion of the Norlin era? The S-1? And let's not forget the late, unlamented Sonex. Nobody wants those, not even now when they're rare (because nobody bought them.) Gibson is Gibson. The road to recovery is to BE GIBSON. That means making a QUALITY INSTRUMENT, not cutting corners and raising prices. And that means having the company run by GUITAR PEOPLE, not biniss dweebs. People who buy quality instruments understand is that they're generally more delicate than beaters. Stradivarius violins have lasted hundreds of years. My J-200 is 59 years old. It's had some repairs over the years but it's still in fine shape and there's no reason it won't be in another 100 years with proper maintenance. If you want a cut rate, cheapened Gibson buy an Epiphone. Gibson needs to go back to the core product line and to stop making 37 different versions of each. You want custom paint? Order it, pay the premium, and wait 6 months, the way it used to be under CMI. You want fancy inlay? Ditto. Special pickups? Install 'em yourself or have you local guy do it. And stop trying to pass off cheap machine made instruments as hand crafted or hand finished. Even a blind man can see that they're not. This one of these situations where you're not really disagreeing with me as much as just sounding like you are. Yeah they need to stop passing off bleh quality on premium prices, the easiest thing to be is to drop the price of them down. The wood quality has changed, the manufacturing has changed and it doesn't make sense. There's no way I'd bring an Epi on the road. I've seen the headstock pop clean off. That's too frail for touring and not workable for most low income, ie most, bands. They go with fenders cause if you break the neck you've your guitar back good as new for 100 quid. It's not about emulating other manufacturers, it's about addressing the actual technical flaws that gigging musicians bemoan and not making ridiculous solutions to one's they didn't. Bolt on necks with thicker headstock won't ruin those guitars,and 'studio' instruments aren't a thing anymore. Who tours a Rhodes when they can have a Nord Stage?
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Post by johneppstein on May 13, 2018 12:15:15 GMT -6
No. Absolutely not. Gibson has attempted to emulate Fender in the past and has always failed. What was that 3 pickup, bolt-on abortion of the Norlin era? The S-1? And let's not forget the late, unlamented Sonex. Nobody wants those, not even now when they're rare (because nobody bought them.) Gibson is Gibson. The road to recovery is to BE GIBSON. That means making a QUALITY INSTRUMENT, not cutting corners and raising prices. And that means having the company run by GUITAR PEOPLE, not biniss dweebs. People who buy quality instruments understand is that they're generally more delicate than beaters. Stradivarius violins have lasted hundreds of years. My J-200 is 59 years old. It's had some repairs over the years but it's still in fine shape and there's no reason it won't be in another 100 years with proper maintenance. If you want a cut rate, cheapened Gibson buy an Epiphone. Gibson needs to go back to the core product line and to stop making 37 different versions of each. You want custom paint? Order it, pay the premium, and wait 6 months, the way it used to be under CMI. You want fancy inlay? Ditto. Special pickups? Install 'em yourself or have you local guy do it. And stop trying to pass off cheap machine made instruments as hand crafted or hand finished. Even a blind man can see that they're not. This one of these situations where you're not really disagreeing with me as much as just sounding like you are. Yeah they need to stop passing off bleh quality on premium prices, the easiest thing to be is to drop the price of them down. The wood quality has changed, the manufacturing has changed and it doesn't make sense. There's no way I'd bring an Epi on the road. I've seen the headstock pop clean off. That's too frail for touring and not workable for most low income, ie most, bands. They go with fenders cause if you break the neck you've your guitar back good as new for 100 quid. It's not about emulating other manufacturers, it's about addressing the actual technical flaws that gigging musicians bemoan and not making ridiculous solutions to one's they didn't. Bolt on necks with thicker headstock won't ruin those guitars,and 'studio' instruments aren't a thing anymore. Who tours a Rhodes when they can have a Nord Stage? "This one of these situations where you're not really disagreeing with me as much as just sounding like you are." Yes. Most of the time, but not on Gibson construction. Yes, Gibsons are more fragile. That's one of the things that makes them Gibsons. Gibson players learn to be more careful with their instruments. We don't WANT bolt-on necks - it changes the sound and feel. We don't WANT straight headstocks although they're admittedly stronger. The tilted stock puts more down-pressure against the nut which, again, influences the tone. It also insures that your strings don't pop out if you don't have string trees, which introduce their own problems. It's like asking why they don't make violins out of fiberglass. (They do, actually, but they're not taking over the market.) If you like Fender construction, play Fender. What you're saying is like asking why you don't beef up a Ferrari for off road driving. It's not what the thing does. Professional musicians have been touring with Gibsons since long before Leo Fender started making guitars. They're not likely to stop. Fender guitars are commodities. Gibson guitars are (were) works of art. Attempting to commodify art is a mistake.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 13, 2018 12:45:19 GMT -6
Interesting thoughts John., and I kind of see your point. Fenders were made to have parts replaced, but every once in a while, they sing. Jimmy Page comes to mind. He's THE classic Les Paul player, yet he used a Telecaster on many more recordings than his Gibson's.
I've been saying for years that Gibson needs to get back to a basic, better, best, design approach.
When we talk about acoustics though, my opinion changes. i've occasionally heard some lovely Gibson acoustics, but overall, almost every Martin D28 I pick up kills them.
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Post by wiz on May 13, 2018 18:49:24 GMT -6
Can't agree with on the Epiphone remark. I've owned a number of Gibsons in the past (all gone now), but have a couple of Epis (Les Paul Standard Pro and Broadway). They're both solid and playable instruments, the Broadway in particular. It's based on the L5-CES and comes in at about a tenth the price. It's been strung very heavy for years and the neck has held its shape beautifully. The acoustic output is strong and the pickups are fine. There are a few details in the finish and trim that don't match up to the Gibson, but that's just visual. It's a fine guitar. The Les is pretty good as well. I will agree with you on the proliferation of versions. Seems like once upon a time there was a gold Les and a black one. Now there seem to be re-issues of every tweaked model that ever existed. The brand seems to be pitched at geezers who always wanted a Gibson and can now afford one. But if I was going to spend that much on a guitar, I'd be looking at a Benedetto. When Steve Jobs returned to Apple, the first thing he did was eliminate just about every Mac on the market. He quickly whittled it down to iMac and Mac Pro. There was great wailing and gnashing of teeth, but it worked like a charm. It was the focus on core competencies. We can only hope that Gibson passes into the hands of someone with both strong business skills and a love of making music. Not many of those. I did not mean to say that Epiphone does not make good quality workingman's instruments. I own a '56 Goldtop RI that is a great playing instrument and even has pickups as good as many current Gibson P-90s./ (Note the word "current".) I have a '57 LP Jr. RI thart, with the exception of the horrible stock P-100 pickup and the pol;y finish, is a far better instrument than my Gibson branded LP Special of roughly the same age (early 2000s) - with the addition of a Lindy Fralin P-90 it's a GREAT guitar. Are either up to traditional Gibson quality? No, not quite. I also own an Epi LP burst, which is a good gigging guitar but the pickups are a bit weak. It's currently loaned out to my ex-bass player. Somehow, though, it just doesn't have the feel of the real thing. Neither does the goldtop, although it's a great gigging guitar. I have not tried the current Broadway, although I did get to play an original back when I worked for Spitzer Music, which had a couple or 3 vintage Epis from the '40s/'50s I have one of those 56 gold top RI's as well.. its back breakingly heavy!! is yours? cheers Wiz
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Post by johneppstein on May 13, 2018 23:57:34 GMT -6
I did not mean to say that Epiphone does not make good quality workingman's instruments. I own a '56 Goldtop RI that is a great playing instrument and even has pickups as good as many current Gibson P-90s./ (Note the word "current".) I have a '57 LP Jr. RI thart, with the exception of the horrible stock P-100 pickup and the pol;y finish, is a far better instrument than my Gibson branded LP Special of roughly the same age (early 2000s) - with the addition of a Lindy Fralin P-90 it's a GREAT guitar. Are either up to traditional Gibson quality? No, not quite. I also own an Epi LP burst, which is a good gigging guitar but the pickups are a bit weak. It's currently loaned out to my ex-bass player. Somehow, though, it just doesn't have the feel of the real thing. Neither does the goldtop, although it's a great gigging guitar. I have not tried the current Broadway, although I did get to play an original back when I worked for Spitzer Music, which had a couple or 3 vintage Epis from the '40s/'50s I have one of those 56 gold top RI's as well.. its back breakingly heavy!! is yours? cheers Wiz Back breakingly heavy? Not really - have you ever played an original? It's not featherweight - but it shouldn't be.
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Post by johneppstein on May 14, 2018 0:02:01 GMT -6
Interesting thoughts John., and I kind of see your point. Fenders were made to have parts replaced, but every once in a while, they sing. Jimmy Page comes to mind. He's THE classic Les Paul player, yet he used a Telecaster on many more recordings than his Gibson's. I've been saying for years that Gibson needs to get back to a basic, better, best, design approach. When we talk about acoustics though, my opinion changes. i've occasionally heard some lovely Gibson acoustics, but overall, almost every Martin D28 I pick up kills them. Gibson acoustics made prtior to 1966 are usually pretty great; ones made in the '50s asnd earlier pretty much uniformly so. '67 and later are spotty. Most made in the Henry era are pretty "meh" except for the absurdly expensive Custom Shop "Museum series".
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Post by wiz on May 14, 2018 1:20:28 GMT -6
I have one of those 56 gold top RI's as well.. its back breakingly heavy!! is yours? cheers Wiz Back breakingly heavy? Not really - have you ever played an original? It's not featherweight - but it shouldn't be. Yes, many times..I own an original which is very heavy...but the epi is heavier than any Paul I have played here is my Paul....was the first song I ever played on it... I had just gotten it 8) cheers Wiz
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