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Post by M57 on Apr 19, 2018 6:41:33 GMT -6
In my experience the all ITB mix guys just tell us 50% of the story. Most of the time the files they mix have seen hardware in tracking, This makes a big difference when mixing ITB. Try the same with files which just have seen the preamp and you will have a hard time to get a three dimensional mix ITB. what about miles davis' kind of blue.
just mics and preamps.
Of course you need to consider genre specific requirements. Your example also applies if you're recording Mozart or Duruflé, where the holy grail is dead nuts accuracy where dynamics, space and tonal qualities are concerned. With most contemporary/pop and hybrid music genres, not only are those qualities not requirements, but in fact the goal is to alter, edit, and mix for consumption in less forgiving environments - like cars. Compression and reverb are complete game-changers that throw many of the traditional paradigms of recording and mix on their heads.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 19, 2018 7:20:01 GMT -6
I did this five years ago before I had outboard, so it was 100% ITB, including all the instrumentation, except the acoustic guitar. I had left the music business, and I'd never used a DAW myself until this, so it was rough, but here it is.
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/goin-down-last-final-mix-4
_ This was a hybrid production:
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/long-road-back-master
Obviously they're different songs so it's not a real comparison, but it might further the conversation..
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Post by mrholmes on Apr 19, 2018 7:57:42 GMT -6
In my experience the all ITB mix guys just tell us 50% of the story. Most of the time the files they mix have seen hardware in tracking, This makes a big difference when mixing ITB. Try the same with files which just have seen the preamp and you will have a hard time to get a three dimensional mix ITB. what about miles davis' kind of blue.
just mics and preamps.
At least four layers of anaolg artifacts. Mic, Mic-Pre, Summing,Tape Today we have mic - pre - digital tools. IMO in Pop and Rock music it is even more obvious.
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Post by mrholmes on Apr 19, 2018 8:06:04 GMT -6
I did this five years ago before I had outboard, so it was 100% ITB, including all the instrumentation, except the acoustic guitar. I had left the music business, and I'd never used a DAW myself until this, so it was rough, but here it is. Obviously they're different songs so it's not a real comparison, but it might further the conversation.. Good example in the second mix the LV is vey 3 D and I bet it have seen some hardware? If not I eat my own words.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 19, 2018 8:37:01 GMT -6
You're right mrholmes. The 2nd track had the Warm WA2A, WA76 and Pultec EQ going in. That's the Soyuz 017 mic on that vocal. Instruments were recorded with mics and amps. My guitar amp broke that day, so we had to use a little $40 solid state Fender practice amp I had in the closet for the electric guitars!
On track 1 (Going' Down Last) , everything was a plug-in, including electric guitars which used Apple's amps.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 19, 2018 8:45:37 GMT -6
I did this five years ago before I had outboard, so it was 100% ITB, including all the instrumentation, except the acoustic guitar. I had left the music business, and I'd never used a DAW myself until this, so it was rough, but here it is. Obviously they're different songs so it's not a real comparison, but it might further the conversation.. Good example in the second mix the LV is vey 3 D and I bet it have seen some hardware? If not I eat my own words. The second track has $10000 worth of mastering gear on it too.
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Post by Guitar on Apr 19, 2018 8:59:34 GMT -6
I read in a tape op once larry said that elliott smith made his first 3 records with gear that most of us would laugh at then throw away. Shows to go ya. if my recordings sound like puppy puke the only fault is my own. very true. I mean Daft Punk used an Alessis 3630 for their bus compressor for their first two albums. Often I think its the limitations that brings out the art. A funny thing about Daft Punk and the Alesis 3630.. Some discussions I like to point that out, and I've had people straight up say no, that's impossible, there is no way that could be true. Says a lot about the psychology of some recordists today. The Elliott Smith one is another huge example of what matters, glad that got mentioned. His Yamaha guitar is only worth a few hundred bucks as well.
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Post by c0rtland on Apr 19, 2018 9:07:41 GMT -6
In my experience the all ITB mix guys just tell us 50% of the story. Most of the time the files they mix have seen hardware in tracking, This makes a big difference when mixing ITB. Try the same with files which just have seen the preamp and you will have a hard time to get a three dimensional mix ITB. what about miles davis' kind of blue.
just mics and preamps.
and tape. That's also jazz so apples to oranges with rock/pop mixing.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 19, 2018 9:26:16 GMT -6
jcoutou said, "The second track has $10000 worth of mastering gear on it too. When I said " all analogue", I meant a whole lotta analogue! ;-) I'll be making a video for that track in June or July with the Brothers In Arms Motorcycle Club in Seattle, all for charity.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 9:54:26 GMT -6
very true. I mean Daft Punk used an Alessis 3630 for their bus compressor for their first two albums. Often I think its the limitations that brings out the art. A funny thing about Daft Punk and the Alesis 3630.. Some discussions I like to point that out, and I've had people straight up say no, that's impossible, there is no way that could be true. Says a lot about the psychology of some recordists today. The Elliott Smith one is another huge example of what matters, glad that got mentioned. His Yamaha guitar is only worth a few hundred bucks as well. Gear snobbery is rampant in this industry though and in a lot of cases it's completely unfounded, again it's not about the cost it's about what works.. Wasn't it James Taylor who won an engineering grammy using an 02R? It's almost like pied piper mentality, tell everyone you have an SSL LFAC they'll give you kudo's for it / say the same about an $800.00 mixer which could subjectively sound better and nobody cares in the slightest. Then again I'm not that interested in what equipment people have, it's a means to an end.. Don't get me wrong, I've yet to come across a $50.00 boss digital distortion pedal that can go toe to toe with a Kemper / real amp.. So, in some circumstances the only real path bar compromise is expensive. I've noticed it's always flavor of the month pieces that shift cost / performance places as they sell out in droves and the next competitor try's to outdo them.
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Post by Blackdawg on Apr 19, 2018 10:13:25 GMT -6
what about miles davis' kind of blue.
just mics and preamps.
At least four layers of anaolg artifacts. Mic, Mic-Pre, Summing,Tape Today we have mic - pre - digital tools. IMO in Pop and Rock music it is even more obvious. Tape alone is a HUGE difference. Changes so much about the sound. The Eq curve of it, the speed, natural compression of it..glorious.
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Post by Blackdawg on Apr 19, 2018 10:18:22 GMT -6
very true. I mean Daft Punk used an Alessis 3630 for their bus compressor for their first two albums. Often I think its the limitations that brings out the art. A funny thing about Daft Punk and the Alesis 3630.. Some discussions I like to point that out, and I've had people straight up say no, that's impossible, there is no way that could be true. Says a lot about the psychology of some recordists today. The Elliott Smith one is another huge example of what matters, glad that got mentioned. His Yamaha guitar is only worth a few hundred bucks as well. Yeah stuff like that is great. For me, gear is a cool topic in that regard. From my experience, you really can make something sound great with cheap "crap" gear. The biggest difference to me between the lower tier stuff and pro stuff is the effort it takes to get to the right place. Pro gear makes work so much easier. You just get to that "aahhh..yeaah. That sounds right" phase way way faster and easier. Granted, to quote my hero Mr. Al Schmitt: "You can have a great recording and bad music and its still bad. And you can have a bad recording and great music and its still great music". (or something like that, not a direct quote). The biggest factor for sure is still the music and musician. My old boss at the STL symphony use to say he could put a pair of SM57s in front of that symphony and it would still sound awesome. Probably nice as good, but the performance would be world class no matter what.
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Post by notneeson on Apr 19, 2018 10:52:40 GMT -6
Sure. And yet some can churn out world class mixes with plugins. Who’s to tell them they need a DBX 160A to do it “right.” Not me. In my experience the all ITB mix guys just tell us 50% of the story. Most of the time the files they mix have seen hardware in tracking, This makes a big difference when mixing ITB. Try the same with files which just have seen the preamp and you will have a hard time to get a three dimensional mix ITB. Yes, I’m just talking about mixing. I know and respect pro AEs who have gone ITB. What I’m saying is that I don’t look down my nose at their choices, despite using a summing mixer, line amps, and a VCA comp on my own mixes. Not directed at you Holmes, but generally: Pontificating on what someone other than one’s self can do with a given tool set strikes me as deeply insecure. If someone is an all ITB mixer-for-hire, and I know a few good ones, they are very likely accepting all comers and thus whatever tracks that entails. That’s confidence. Perhaps they also have the confidence to point out bad tracks and negotiate getting things re-cut?
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Post by iamasound on Apr 19, 2018 11:36:24 GMT -6
What one might need ITB is pretty much what one would have in the analogue realm. The magical fantasticness of working ITB is only limited by your processing power, so A few compressors like an LA2A and a 1176 itteration plus a dedicated limiter for come mix time, a reverb,a delay and of course an eq. Some kind of tape simulation and perhaps a small footprint desk chanbel simulation to drop onto each track to tie it all together like a summing unit. Anything else would be luxurious. Most DAWs have good to great plugins built in so it is all golden.
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Post by viciousbliss on Apr 19, 2018 15:51:14 GMT -6
I rely on a few staples nowadays. Started putting Seventh Heaven Pro on everything again after using the Weiss set. The DS-1 doesn't color stuff or react the way other things do and I feel like it allows SHP to shine more. Random stuff also stops poking out where I don't want it to. Ditched my other channel compressors and just use Novatron as much as possible. Still use Bx_Console N on most tracks. Sknote Ch5 can still be found on some tracks. I love what Museq and Dangerous Bax from PA due when boosting frequencies, so they're all over my mixes. Azure HQ. I tried using the TE-100 I got for free using my PA voucher and it was good, but the Azure HQ is awesome. Nothing I've used amplifies via pre-amp and boosts frequencies as smoothly as Azure HQ does. Only downside is I have to adjust settings, hit render, and close Pro Tools to hear the result. Luckily it's pretty easy to adjust. A lot of the plugin inventory can be due to cpu power or lack thereof. If using an oversampled Novatron is too much, I can swap in some efficient compressor instead. It's good to have more cpu efficient 2nd and 3rd choices if your cpu resources start running out. VLB902 for de-essing.
Echo Farm is always there. Maybe I'll use Primal Tap, Sandman, or H-Delay for a mono delay. For some reason using Satin tape in the insert under my delay and pitch fx really helps vocals I record fit in with lossy rock band tracks I've converted into 96k wav files. Satin is the only tape sim I've tried that works in this context. Working with 1-10 converted lossy files is a lot harder for me than stuff of better quality. With big sessions of lossless original music I don't find I need to add VLB902 before an effect and Satin after. I needed Satin after fx for a session that just had one track each of drums, rhythm guitar, and bass. Some tracks don't need any plugins at all. NLS as a last insert on every track can give one kind of cohesive sound. I've found RA to be real essential to taming dynamics and harsh frequencies on vocals I record with nothing but an SM7 and ID14. Phoenix tape is still king of the tape stuff for me.
I can't stress enough that Overloud Gem plugins sound quite good and boast about being able to run 1500 instances on some Macbook. Although I did read many comments about aliasing on that free API eq they gave away recently. If I had to mix a big session without a great cpu, I'd probably use all Overloud Gem stuff and some efficient reverb and other fx. McDSP stuff being another real efficient brand is worth owning. I never really got into their sound though. Consoles were made for mixing, and I think the noise, thd, etc from Bx_Console can really help livin up some dull stuff. The gate and eq are useful to me in creating room in small sessions.
It's possible to find new uses for plugins that you haven't used in a while. Sometimes an oddball choice might work when nothing else is doing the trick. Once you have the basics covered, you can start to look at trying some other stuff based on style. It does take a lot of experimentation. From the research I've done on cpus lately, I'm not sure anything out there could run Azure HQ in real time. A guy with a 7940x overclocked replied to me on GS and said it was choking on a chain of Ruby HQ or Scarlet, two limiters, some dynamic eqs, and the Weiss. Think this was a 96k mastering session. Home computers may have a ways to go before we can run lots of demanding stuff in real time.
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Post by mrholmes on Apr 19, 2018 17:47:15 GMT -6
In my experience the all ITB mix guys just tell us 50% of the story. Most of the time the files they mix have seen hardware in tracking, This makes a big difference when mixing ITB. Try the same with files which just have seen the preamp and you will have a hard time to get a three dimensional mix ITB. Yes, I’m just talking about mixing. I know and respect pro AEs who have gone ITB. What I’m saying is that I don’t look down my nose at their choices, despite using a summing mixer, line amps, and a VCA comp on my own mixes. Not directed at you Holmes, but generally: Pontificating on what someone other than one’s self can do with a given tool set strikes me as deeply insecure. If someone is an all ITB mixer-for-hire, and I know a few good ones, they are very likely accepting all comers and thus whatever tracks that entails. That’s confidence. Perhaps they also have the confidence to point out bad tracks and negotiate getting things re-cut? No preaching from my side... I just want to point out that the all ITB story never came close compared to my favourite records. As soon I start up my rack full of real gear there is a dramatic change....it just starts to sound like a record. But I also made the experience that mixing ITB is way more easy if the files have seen hardware in tracking. The rest is my personal preference ... I love turning real knobs.
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Post by Guitar on Apr 19, 2018 17:54:06 GMT -6
When I look back on an album or a project, I have a very hard time remembering what was analog and what was computer. It all just ends up sounding like "sound." And I guess that's OK for me.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2018 22:41:33 GMT -6
In the past i had pluginitis and everything needed a lot more time to get finished. Nowadays i use Mixbus and have all of Harrisons LV2 plugins licensed, that come with it. Although i use not all of them, they are more or less specialized plugins that i sometimes like, sometimes not. I use the Klanghelm MJUC, the Cakewalk La2a digital recreation (mainly vocals, sometimes bass), OrilRiver free reverb (excellent!), Eventide 2016 reverb occasionally, the free Cockos ReaEQ, ReaGate and ReaXcomp, Overloud Gem 550 style EQ (sounds really great to my ears), Acoustica Audio TAN (mainly drumbus), iZotope Neutrino and Nectar Lite, boz Bark of Dog (bass/kick problem solver) and on rare occasions Eventide UltaChannel and Cakewalk PX64 percussion channelstrip. Actually, all of them i got as free giveaways or older Sonar inclusives, except Klanghelm. And this is it. I am contemplating on purchasing an iZotope Ozone version, if i will do premastering more regularly in future - seems like a very useful and well thought tool for occasional premastering, as all things iZotope IMO ...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2018 22:48:32 GMT -6
Oh, and for premastering, i use NotjustanotherCD / Notjustanotherdither from airwindows and his vinyl emulation effect in slight amounts for glue, after i did some listening tests, thanks to this forum, and FinalCD for SRC. Also free stuff.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Apr 23, 2018 7:26:11 GMT -6
How many plugins do we need? Well, I have a few hundred probably and only use about 10 or 15 regularly lol.
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Post by stormymondays on Apr 23, 2018 14:12:53 GMT -6
I think one of the strengths of Softube’s Console 1 is that it helps you to use less plugins. I’m always looking for ways to use less! Learning what you have inside out really pays off in the end...
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Post by M57 on Apr 23, 2018 17:48:50 GMT -6
I think one of the strengths of Softube’s Console 1 is that it helps you to use less plugins. I’m always looking for ways to use less! Learning what you have inside out really pays off in the end... I considered the SC1 but went with the Slate Bundle. It was kind of a one or the other decision. But for the fact that I already had the Behringer X-Touch with its faders and transport functions, I probably would have gone with the Softube Console. There just seems to be a lot of overlap where physical functionality is concerned. Is there anything wrong with that logic?
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Post by stormymondays on Apr 24, 2018 0:32:53 GMT -6
I think one of the strengths of Softube’s Console 1 is that it helps you to use less plugins. I’m always looking for ways to use less! Learning what you have inside out really pays off in the end... I considered the SC1 but went with the Slate Bundle. It was kind of a one or the other decision. But for the fact that I already had the Behringer X-Touch with its faders and transport functions, I probably would have gone with the Softube Console. There just seems to be a lot of overlap where physical functionality is concerned. Is there anything wrong with that logic? I have the X-Touch as well. No overlap at all! Maybe the solo button but that’s it.
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Post by M57 on Apr 24, 2018 4:34:36 GMT -6
I considered the SC1 but went with the Slate Bundle. It was kind of a one or the other decision. But for the fact that I already had the Behringer X-Touch with its faders and transport functions, I probably would have gone with the Softube Console. There just seems to be a lot of overlap where physical functionality is concerned. Is there anything wrong with that logic? I have the X-Touch as well. No overlap at all! Maybe the solo button but that’s it. I don't understand. Don't both the SC1 and the X-T have automated/writable faders and transport capabilities + the X-touch has a giant scrub wheel and all kinds of functionality for getting around he screen - and don't both the SC1 and Slate bundle offer a full range of console/tape/reverb/plug-in like features? I just don't see any extra functionality I'd be gaining with the SC1 from a hardware or software point of view. If I had the SC1 and the X-T, which one am I reaching for when I'm tracking or mixing? I don't need redundancy. If I had the SC1 and Slate bundle, which set of console emulations would I use? I don't want to make a purchase just to end up in the shoot out where one wins and one loses. I could see where if I had neither the X-T or the Slate Bundle, the SC1 would be a perfect choice, but I just don't see what the SC1 offers that I don't already have.
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Post by stormymondays on Apr 24, 2018 4:53:11 GMT -6
Console 1 has no faders (it has input and output knobs but they don’t substitute the fader) and no transport. It’s only meant to control the channel strip. You can view it as a fancy controller tied to a specific plugin. That might be good or bad depending on your point of view.
The SSL console emulation equals or surpasses Slate’s. I still pay for the Slate bundle but I only use the VTM tape now.
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