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Post by M57 on Apr 16, 2018 4:47:46 GMT -6
It's a mostly rhetorical question.. On the one hand, many here point to the great recordings made in 'studio X' tracking on 'board y' with a handful of outboard compressors - and that's it. They worked with what they had. On the other hand, I suppose I can understand that if a client walks into a contemporary studio and demands 'sound Z' then the engineer may need to pull down a bunch of API channel strips, or some other nuanced or esoteric virtual piece of equipment. But for singer-songwriter types like me, I feel like I should be able to get by with a bare minimum of plug-ins. Fortunately, I feel like I'm approaching build-out in my little home studio, at least on the hardware end, with gear that finally makes me smile. Really all that's left is to upgrade to a good set of monitors. But on the software end, I feel like I'm being constantly barraged by talk of must-have processors that promise to bring my recordings to the next level.
No, I don't need that API channel strip - or another compressor, de-esser or reverb emulation, etc. Between Logic, the Slate Bundle, and a handful of aftermarket plugs, I've got all I need. At least I've figured that much out. But what about the Surfer EQs and Ozone Suites in the world? These are not clones of old gear, but new tools that promise to make things 'better' and 'easier.' Which brings me back around to my original point. Great recordings have been made with far less than what I have in my studio (virtually speaking).
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 16, 2018 5:19:05 GMT -6
Probably 10 good obvious plug ins by type will get the job done almost all the time. When I sold my UA stuff there were roughly 10 I thought I would miss, now that list is down to one: Ampex 102  Demo the hell out of the plug in, you can't Live without x, marketing onslaught and unless it’s discounted don’t buy it until it is on sale and you really know you will use it regularly. I have sold wellbover 60% of my plug ins and only miss the one. |
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Post by gouge on Apr 16, 2018 6:13:43 GMT -6
i don't think you need any.
most of them are complete crap. i can say that with the really badly recorded stuff I've done i use many plugs. on the best stuff I've recorded i use barely any.
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Post by M57 on Apr 16, 2018 6:27:10 GMT -6
i don't think you need any. It almost sounds like you are you saying I shouldn't use anything that isn't "real." No compression? I do use some on the way in, but never enough ..because you can't undo compression. Besides, I like the sound of serial compression. No EQ? Remember, this is not a pro studio. I don't have a patch bay or dedicated compressors for busses. Once ITB, it stays there, and I master my own music. I'm an amateur in the sense that this is not a business for me. (I create because I need to ..not because I have to.) I'm not comfortable EQing on the way in. In a manner similar to the way I feel about compression, I just don't have the experience to be confident about what I'm doing with an EQ before I get ITB. I have some nice pres and a single Warm WA-2A and a WA76. My vocals DO need de-essing. I can't afford a $5000 microphone (I mean my wife won't let me afford one). The kind of music I write is mostly acoustic, but I do use effects ..judiciously. I will agree that too many plugs makes most things worse - not better. But really? No plugs? I'm thinking maybe you're saying I don't need any ADDITIONAL plugs, and I'm down with that. I'm mostly asking about the newer technologies. Pro engineers may scoff at some of these fancy All-in-one or time saving tools, but us common musician types need all the help we can get. |
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Post by swurveman on Apr 16, 2018 7:23:23 GMT -6
Here's my $.02
I have UAD (bundle that came with my Quad DSP hardware), Waves (Gold Bundle plus others) and Slate plugins and a Fabfilter EQ. I mostly use the Slate Virtual Mix Rack for my channel strip plugins. Why? I like that everything is in one container (including the trimmer/gain which is nice) and I didn't notice anything where I thought any of my other plugins were much better. I also use their Verbsuite for plates and rooms. That being said I occasionally use the Waves LA2A and the UAD 1176 for background vocals, though if I had to do it over again I would never have bought the UAD platform. I never run out of processing power for my native plugins. I use my Cubase mono and stereo delays for my vocal delays,- but I always put the Slate Tape plugin in the next insert for a tape delay emulation. I also use the Slate VCC on the mix bus. It does add some warmth imo. I do use my hardware API 2500, LA2A, 1176, Bricasti and GML 8200 though. So, it's not like I'm all itb. If I had my druthers, I wouldn't use one plugin, but I don't have the cash. The Slate subscription is the best deal going imo for plugins.
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Post by gouge on Apr 16, 2018 7:47:13 GMT -6
i don't think you need any. It almost sounds like you are you saying I shouldn't use anything that isn't "real." No compression? I do use some on the way in, but never enough ..because you can't undo compression. Besides, I like the sound of serial compression. No EQ? Remember, this is not a pro studio. I don't have a patch bay or dedicated compressors for busses. Once ITB, it stays there, and I master my own music. I'm an amateur in the sense that this is not a business for me. (I create because I need to ..not because I have to.) I'm not comfortable EQing on the way in. In a manner similar to the way I feel about compression, I just don't have the experience to be confident about what I'm doing with an EQ before I get ITB. I have some nice pres and a single Warm WA-2A and a WA76. My vocals DO need de-essing. I can't afford a $5000 microphone (I mean my wife won't let me afford one). The kind of music I write is mostly acoustic, but I do use effects ..judiciously. I will agree that too many plugs makes most things worse - not better. But really? No plugs? I'm thinking maybe you're saying I don't need any ADDITIONAL plugs, and I'm down with that. I'm mostly asking about the newer technologies. Pro engineers may scoff at some of these fancy All-in-one or time saving tools, but us common musician types need all the help we can get. Another way to look at it is. Driving preamps provides compression and eq comes from placing the mic. Reverb can come from room mics and bleed Then you mix and do the compression at mastering time. Waves api2500 and mjuc are about the only plug comps I like using. Reverb and delay are needed beyond what I wrote above but I find the better I capture the source the less plugs I need and that has given me something to think about. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 16, 2018 7:59:17 GMT -6
“Reverb and delay are needed beyond what I wrote above but I find the better I capture the source the less plugs I need and that has given me something to think about!”
Unless, you are going for very styalized production, I think the above a very true statement.
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Post by spindrift on Apr 16, 2018 8:14:52 GMT -6
Take your dream mic locker mic count and multiply by 2.
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Post by spindrift on Apr 16, 2018 8:27:51 GMT -6
Seriously though, to me it comes down to having sonic options come mix-time. I’m fortunate enough to have a lot of hardware outboard options but with recalls and having to switch projects quickly these days, the benefits of hardware are being trumped by the convenience of quality plugins. And there are some plugs I like that emulate stuff I just don’t have. First rule is that the magic is in the song and performance. Don’t need no plugs for that! There’s always the first Bon Iver record to remind me that a lot of great gear is not needed to create great art. While they probably processed the mixes of that record with plugs, I love the idea of someday capturing that lightning in a bottle: Great art in front of great gear. It’s healthy to remind myself that this is a gear site with a lot of like minded people (aka. /r/circlejerk). We love to crank our selves up over the newest discovery or piece of gear. I love gear....but gear for me is something I have control over....capturing that lightning in a bottle is MUCH more elusive. I need to remember that gear/plugs can’t compensate for bad art. I heard your song you posted a couple weeks back in the 5K mic locker thread M57 . I know you’re on the right track! |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Apr 16, 2018 8:29:39 GMT -6
From my days of getting lots of mix projects way less than you think!😎
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Post by drbill on Apr 16, 2018 10:08:00 GMT -6
It's simple really - one more than you currently have. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Apr 16, 2018 10:13:30 GMT -6
Plugins are really easy to get sucked into. They are cheap really and its very nice you can use them anywhere and as many times as you want.
That said, for me if you are doing the project from start to finish. You really shouldn't need many at all. Correct mic choice and placement will win out every time.
Now to me, if you are just mixing a lot of stuff from other people and it might not be well done. Plugins are a life saver. You can really resurect badly done things with plugins. There is no escaping that. Live recordings for instance is where plugins can be super handy to have.
All in all. I have many i'll admit. But I think I only use a handful all the time.
I use the Waves CLA bundle on damn near everything. You can pug the LA2A or LA3A on anything it with no compression going it will sound better. Is it the real thing? no. But it does do things..
SSL GEQ
SSL Buss compressor
Fab Filtere Timeless2 and Pro2
I agree that effects stuff with plugins is awesome. I really am enjoying the GoodHertz stuff to mess with things sonically. My biggest beef though is that plugins often sound too pure. I'll take a rack of SPX90 II or 900s anyday because they sound so shitty they just sound...good haha
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Post by spindrift on Apr 16, 2018 10:27:53 GMT -6
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Post by christopher on Apr 16, 2018 11:39:14 GMT -6
The life saver plugins: EQ, filters, gates/expanders, compression that can be sidechained, delays and time adjusters. A good reverb plugin is needed, but yes a cheap old outboard wins so no reason to spend too much. Mostly stock DAW plugins do the job of everything you need in a clean way. However I learned I guess because most people tracked with neve in the old days, if you use a neve style plugin for "fixing" sounds it limits your choices to same ones the classics used, and it seems to work. Then use a more versatile EQ after it for mixing and making things fit.
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Post by matt@IAA on Apr 16, 2018 12:18:19 GMT -6
i don't think you need any. It almost sounds like you are you saying I shouldn't use anything that isn't "real." No compression? I do use some on the way in, but never enough ..because you can't undo compression. Besides, I like the sound of serial compression. No EQ? Remember, this is not a pro studio. I don't have a patch bay or dedicated compressors for busses. Once ITB, it stays there, and I master my own music. I'm an amateur in the sense that this is not a business for me. (I create because I need to ..not because I have to.) I'm not comfortable EQing on the way in. In a manner similar to the way I feel about compression, I just don't have the experience to be confident about what I'm doing with an EQ before I get ITB. I have some nice pres and a single Warm WA-2A and a WA76. My vocals DO need de-essing. I can't afford a $5000 microphone (I mean my wife won't let me afford one). The kind of music I write is mostly acoustic, but I do use effects ..judiciously. I will agree that too many plugs makes most things worse - not better. But really? No plugs? I'm thinking maybe you're saying I don't need any ADDITIONAL plugs, and I'm down with that. I'm mostly asking about the newer technologies. Pro engineers may scoff at some of these fancy All-in-one or time saving tools, but us common musician types need all the help we can get. I’m in the same boat as you, but I like hardware. I have a hybrid process. The only paid plugins I have are the waves API bundle and the free L1 they threw in on sale. I have two reverbs I like, two EQs, and two or three compressors. You don’t need to be a pro studio to have some “essential” outboard. A tube opto and FET compressor are not terribly expensive. A handful or hardware EQs aren’t bad either. From experience, it’s a lot more fun and intuitive to work on hardware. You probably have the IO, so patching should be pretty easy. Make your own 19” rack - if you have a circular saw you can do this in a Saturday afternoon from 3/4” plywood, some screws, and rack rails from amazon - and still have time for a beer or two. A good buddy of mine gave me great advice: buying new gear is risky, especially for new engineers, because you don’t end up learning how to use what you have. The skilled guys get nuance out of their tools. Beginners try to buy tools to get nuance. |
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Post by christopher on Apr 16, 2018 12:25:59 GMT -6
Best thing I can recommend for OP is take the time to "re-track" each through an outboard chain after recording. It's a total PIA, but you won't be worried about screwing it up like during tracking, and can push the gear to full potential. It takes about 5 minutes per track, but it's kind of fun and exciting. Maybe takes 1-3 hours depending on the song, that's nothing compared to plugin tweaking. And then use plugins to fit things where you over EQ'd . or do another pass as neeed for a track here or there.
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Post by Guitar on Apr 16, 2018 12:27:52 GMT -6
One time I did a song with only stock Cubase plugins after I bought the latest version. It sounded as good as anything.
A week or two ago I did a synthesizer song that was 100% in the box, including instruments, no hardware of any kind was used. It sounds as good as anything sound-wise. A lot of people are working like this now I guess I sometimes will too. I guess ostensibly I was testing out the Aturia Preamps I had just bought, and some u-He Sequential Circuits imitation synths. But it was good enough to impress several of my friends. I guess that's the thing for me plugins are just as much "new gear" as any other purchase, and can inspire creativity in the same way.
I like buying plugins on sale, and I like having a lot. Even if only a handful will get used on any given track or mix.
One thing to do is shootouts. Get rid of any brands or models that aren't winning shootouts.
There's no reason to artificially limit yourself even though you only "need" really the basic version of any one thing. It's good cheap fun and usually sounds great.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 16, 2018 13:32:02 GMT -6
i don't think you need any. most of them are complete crap. i can say that with the really badly recorded stuff I've done i use many plugs. on the best stuff I've recorded i use barely any. Might some of that have to do with the badly recorded stuff being crap to begin with and the best stuff starting out good? My mom used to say "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear." |
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 16, 2018 13:35:29 GMT -6
It's simple really - one more than you currently have. I don't think so. The correct answer is "All of them" And purchase them through JohnKenn to support RGO! |
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Post by M57 on Apr 16, 2018 13:53:29 GMT -6
Best thing I can recommend for OP is take the time to "re-track" each through an outboard chain after recording. It's a total PIA, but you won't be worried about screwing it up like during tracking, and can push the gear to full potential. It takes about 5 minutes per track, but it's kind of fun and exciting. Maybe takes 1-3 hours depending on the song, that's nothing compared to plugin tweaking. And then use plugins to fit things where you over EQ'd . or do another pass as neeed for a track here or there. Agree. This would definitely be a good "next step" for me, and I've tried it, but with varying degrees of success. The first couple times I just couldn't get things to work. I have what use to be Focusrite's flagship, a Liquid 56, and the logic I/O plug looks dead simple and has an automatic alignment function. You would think the process would be painless, but I've spent hours trying to figure out how to route out and back in. I got weak signals, noise, hum, you name it. At one point I think I got it to work, then the next time I was back to noise. Let's just say the whole experience left me with a bad taste in my mouth. I suppose I could get a real engineer in here and help me figure it out, but honestly (and as much as I love mixing and stuff) I guess I don't really LOVE engineering. You know - gazintas and gozoutas and patch bay spaghetti. Yeah, I like pushing faders and turning knobs, but bottom line: it's all about the ends, not the means for me. Besides, I figure what with the supposed quality of all these virtual devices, if I track with enough real world quality and mojo, I should be able to stay in the box, take advantage of all the recall (I'm constantly going in and tweaking my mixes), and save my back by not having to crawl around the back of my rig with a flashlight every time I want to re-track something. Now if I had money to burn I'd seriously consider learning how to get this damn interface to play nice with my DAW and I'd set up a patchbay or a dedicated chain for re-tracking, or even a stereo buss. Thing is, and if I'm honest with myself, I've got my day job and really don't have the will to promote what I write. In the end, I'm probably just writing these songs for me. I post them up on SC and the steady trickle of people who stumble on them makes me happy. Really! My point: My goal is that it's fun to make, sounds good to me, and makes a few other people temporarily happy. I feel like I'm really close to as good as my ears are capable of discerning - but it would be great if I could eke out that extra 2% of sound quality without working 25% harder. |
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Post by christopher on Apr 16, 2018 14:01:47 GMT -6
Funny, I recently bought a focusrite Scarlett for extra channels and being my lazy (curious) self just hooked it to my mac instead of my RME, and my experience was same as yours. Wtf am I routing wrong??? There's comb filtering going on ...so I guess that's a routing issue, probably monitor channels bleeding. Time to watch some YouTube vids. But dammit the reward when it's actually done right is so worth it, I promise lol.
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Post by M57 on Apr 16, 2018 14:15:00 GMT -6
Funny, I recently bought a focusrite Scarlett for extra channels and being my lazy (curious) self just hooked it to my mac instead of my RME, and my experience was same as yours. Wtf am I routing wrong??? There's comb filtering going on ...so I guess that's a routing issue, probably monitor channels bleeding. Time to watch some YouTube vids. But dammit the reward when it's actually done right is so worth it, I promise lol. I'm just realizing that if I got it to work, then I'd have to upgrade to a larger 500 rack, buy a few EQs, and an extra compressor - minimally! And that would only be the beginning. Soon, it would turn into an ugly new phase of gear obsession, the financial implications of which would further complicate my life, stress my marriage ..undoubtedly driving me to drink more than I already do. Hmm... |
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Post by christopher on Apr 16, 2018 14:26:19 GMT -6
...well YES! And no.. sooner you absolutely love how it sounds, the sooner you stop mixing and notice wife is asleep.
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 16, 2018 15:16:53 GMT -6
It's simple really - one more than you currently have. I don't think so. The correct answer is "All of them" And purchase them through JohnKenn to support RGO! Well, I don’t sell plugins...but if you need some hardware... And btw, I love plugs. Use them All the time. |
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Post by M57 on Apr 16, 2018 15:41:43 GMT -6
You don’t need to be a pro studio to have some “essential” outboard. A tube opto and FET compressor are not terribly expensive. A handful or hardware EQs aren’t bad either. From experience, it’s a lot more fun and intuitive to work on hardware. You probably have the IO, so patching should be pretty easy. Make your own 19” rack - if you have a circular saw you can do this in a Saturday afternoon from 3/4” plywood, some screws, and rack rails from amazon - and still have time for a beer or two. A good buddy of mine gave me great advice: buying new gear is risky, especially for new engineers, because you don’t end up learning how to use what you have. The skilled guys get nuance out of their tools. Beginners try to buy tools to get nuance. Hey matt@IAA I'm pretty happy with the outboard gear I have. I have a decent 2A and 76, I've got some nice pres. I've got more than enough 19" rack-space so I don't really need to do any building there, though I'm down to one 500 space left with my little Heritage OST-4. The only thing I don't have are outboard EQs. But really, as a Singer-Songwriter, I'm really looking to minimize the engineering part of things while recording. I need to focus on the performance, not the recording. Your buddy's advice is well-taken - I can confirm its essence. The process of finding the vocal chain that I use now hasn't been the most efficient, despite the significant amount of research I did - and I don't doubt that it can be improved upon at the same price-point, but I just don't have the kind of experience with mic lockers that pros have. If I were to consider more of a hybrid set-up, I can just see myself investing in a first or second round of gear that just doesn't deliver exactly what I want. ..and that's another really nice thing about plugs. The upfront cost is a fraction of what RL gear costs. |
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