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Post by littlesicily on Jan 31, 2014 12:51:43 GMT -6
Could one of the reasons the urei's sound so good be because of age? The WA76 is brand spankin new and the Urei's are beautifully aged. Maybe...? I really don't know... but I've heard there are so many factors... layout of pcb, quality of components, tolerance values, etc...more than I fully understand. But, if the age factor were true, then one would have to ask which components change in sound over time... and if you replaced those items (caps, for instance) then it would even out the playing field. I just don't know. Is the WA76 supposed to be an exact replica of the UREI rev D?
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Post by henge on Jan 31, 2014 13:09:53 GMT -6
Could one of the reasons the urei's sound so good be because of age? The WA76 is brand spankin new and the Urei's are beautifully aged. Maybe...? I really don't know... but I've heard there are so many factors... layout of pcb, quality of components, tolerance values, etc...more than I fully understand. But, if the age factor were true, then one would have to ask which components change in sound over time... and if you replaced those items (caps, for instance) then it would even out the playing field. I just don't know. Is the WA76 supposed to be an exact replica of the UREI rev D? I more wondering in the sense of aged parts sounding better. Like how guitars get better with age. I'm going to order up a WA76 tomorrow and I wonder if with a couple years of use it gets that smoothness that the Urei's seem to have. Not that the WA76 isn't smooth, I'm very impressed with how it holds up against the Urei and sounds better than the UA to my ears.As far as the age thing, I'm pretty sure that's NOT the case. Just speculation on my part and I have no idea what I'm talking about! LOL
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 31, 2014 13:11:27 GMT -6
I just want to put this out there. Could one of the reasons the urei's sound so good be because of age? The WA76 is brand spankin new and the Urei's are beautifully aged. Maybe...? I can all but garuntee that the HFE numbers of the fet transistors are significantly higher on the original units, also the originals used carbon resistors, newer clones have lower HFE and metal film resistors, I believe it makes a diff But I'm a moron, so what ever poops 8)
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Post by henge on Jan 31, 2014 13:16:53 GMT -6
I just want to put this out there. Could one of the reasons the urei's sound so good be because of age? The WA76 is brand spankin new and the Urei's are beautifully aged. Maybe...? I can all but garuntee that the HFE numbers of the fet transistors are significantly higher on the original units, also the originals used carbon resistors, newer clones have lower HFE and metal film resistors, I believe it makes a diff But I'm a moron, so what ever poops 8) So are higher HFE numbers because of age?
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 31, 2014 13:22:11 GMT -6
I can all but garuntee that the HFE numbers of the fet transistors are significantly higher on the original units, also the originals used carbon resistors, newer clones have lower HFE and metal film resistors, I believe it makes a diff But I'm a moron, so what ever poops 8) So are higher HFE numbers because of age? Negative, modern transistors available in mass are lower HFE rated, the old ones ( higher HFE) are next to impossible to acquire. Age has 0 to do with it
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Post by littlesicily on Jan 31, 2014 13:42:46 GMT -6
So are higher HFE numbers because of age? Negative, modern transistors available in mass are lower HFE rated, the old ones ( higher HFE) are next to impossible to acquire. Age has 0 to do with it tonycamphd please explain... what is HFE?
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Post by littlesicily on Jan 31, 2014 13:43:19 GMT -6
BTW, Mike at Serpent said he DOES have some Splice units left. PM him on the Serpent Facebook page.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2014 13:44:39 GMT -6
I did a quick listen to the Splice files... they seem to be compressing a lot more than the others... the breath before the last phrase "leave to Thy" is so loud and then the vocal is squashed... these things are tough to match when done in several locations. @matkatmusic thanks for running the files and posting. This is why i wanted to do a calibration procedure before everyone just started randomly uploading files. Altho the sinewave calibration i used gave me 15db of GR, the meter was definitely pinned at -20 when i did the actual voice. Also, i didn't listen to the recording while I was doing it lol I'll redo them and get the vocals to peak at 15db of GR unless everyone else wants to use the same calibration procedure I documented in my post... Folks? That would be the most honest comparison, esp. if we all use the same level metering plugin (pref. the daw's built-in plugin)
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Post by littlesicily on Jan 31, 2014 13:49:14 GMT -6
I did a quick listen to the Splice files... they seem to be compressing a lot more than the others... the breath before the last phrase "leave to Thy" is so loud and then the vocal is squashed... these things are tough to match when done in several locations. @matkatmusic thanks for running the files and posting. This is why i wanted to do a calibration procedure before everyone just started randomly uploading files. Altho the sinewave calibration i used gave me 15db of GR, the meter was definitely pinned at -20 when i did the actual voice. Also, i didn't listen to the recording while I was doing it lol I'll redo them and get the vocals to peak at 15db of GR unless everyone else wants to use the same calibration procedure I documented in my post... Folks? That would be the most honest comparison, esp. if we all use the same level metering plugin (pref. the daw's built-in plugin) If I still had all the comps on hand, I'd say do it your suggested way...but I don't :-( So, yeah...just watch the VU GR meter and ballpark it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2014 13:50:45 GMT -6
ok. btw, i just right-clicked on my links and "Copy Link address" So, I don't understand why you had trouble lol
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 31, 2014 14:01:26 GMT -6
Negative, modern transistors available in mass are lower HFE rated, the old ones ( higher HFE) are next to impossible to acquire. Age has 0 to do with it tonycamphd  please explain...  what is HFE? That's a Q for a smarter person than me lol, it has to do with gain and resistance...eh... I think, higher HFE handles more current I think, but don't hold me to this though... Jeff Steiger? Jim Williams? Svart, Anybody?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 31, 2014 14:18:52 GMT -6
I could post them to soundcloud...It doesn't degrade them, right? I post 24/88.2 there all the time...
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 31, 2014 14:28:43 GMT -6
I could post them to soundcloud...It doesn't degrade them, right? I post 24/88.2 there all the time... I think SC automatically compresses the files don't they?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 31, 2014 14:33:45 GMT -6
Maybe so...I have no idea...
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Post by warmaudio on Jan 31, 2014 15:04:52 GMT -6
I really don't know... but I've heard there are so many factors... layout of pcb, quality of components, tolerance values, etc...more than I fully understand. But, if the age factor were true, then one would have to ask which components change in sound over time... and if you replaced those items (caps, for instance) then it would even out the playing field. I just don't know. Is the WA76 supposed to be an exact replica of the UREI rev D? I more wondering in the sense of aged parts sounding better. Like how guitars get better with age. I'm going to order up a WA76 tomorrow and I wonder if with a couple years of use it gets that smoothness that the Urei's seem to have. Not that the WA76 isn't smooth, I'm very impressed with how it holds up against the Urei and sounds better than the UA to my ears.As far as the age thing, I'm pretty sure that's NOT the case. Just speculation on my part and I have no idea what I'm talking about! LOL I believe in the age theory somewhat. Caps and transistors in replicas sound cleaner even when the parts are matched as closely as possible. This could also be that modern components are manufactured more "accurate" than older components were. I think a little bit of both.... just speculation though.
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Post by svart on Jan 31, 2014 15:15:42 GMT -6
That's a Q for a smarter person than me lol, it has to do with gain and resistance...eh... I think, higher HFE handles more current I think, but don't hold me to this though... Jeff Steiger? Jim Williams? Svart, Anybody? Hfe is the current gain through a BJT in reference to the change in AC collector current compared the change in AC base current hfe=(Ic/Ib). It's not a perfect number though, and doesn't necessarily mean voltage gain is happening and doesn't give any indication of how a part will work in a circuit. Sometimes people have confused DC gain and AC gain and sometimes datasheets and designers have different curves for each, some don't. In any case, it's only one of dozens of numbers in a datasheet that make up the description of the part at hand. Back to the original question though.. I don't think hfe has changed, I think the common parts with high hfe of yesteryear have gone away in favor of other modern parts with higher gain, higher speed, lower noise and lower parasitics. With the advent of the opamp/ASIC/IC in general, the discrete audio circuit has all but gone away, so large demand for certain types of older transistor has diminished below the levels of which a manufacturer can sustain production with revenue. Since the remaining modern types of transistor still have useful revenues, they are still made while new types are designed and made for emerging markets which demand them, which steers their specs. Unfortunately, these newer parts aren't replacements for older parts at all and a lot would require total re-figuring of the designs to use them. Some are close enough that they aren't terribly mismatched and I think those are the ones that people are using in remakes of old designs, and probably why there is a bit of a sound difference. That and the old style transistors and resistors were noisy beasts and you couldn't really hear all the flaws due to the high noise floors and such. With metal film resistors and low noise BJT/FETs of today, everything is a lot more clear and linear so things like harmonics that were under the noise floor before, are now out in the open to be heard. See above tonycamphd
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Post by henge on Jan 31, 2014 15:17:10 GMT -6
I could post them to soundcloud...It doesn't degrade them, right? I post 24/88.2 there all the time... I think SC automatically compresses the files don't they? Yes Soundcloud re encodes the uploaded files no matter the format.
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Post by henge on Jan 31, 2014 15:19:42 GMT -6
That's a Q for a smarter person than me lol, it has to do with gain and resistance...eh... I think, higher HFE handles more current I think, but don't hold me to this though... Jeff Steiger? Jim Williams? Svart, Anybody? That and the old style transistors and resistors were noisy beasts and you couldn't really hear all the flaws due to the high noise floors and such. With metal film resistors and low noise BJT/FETs of today, everything is a lot more clear and linear so things like harmonics that were under the noise floor before, are now out in the open to be heard. Seems like in the age of digital everything is too clean!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2014 15:32:41 GMT -6
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Post by svart on Jan 31, 2014 15:32:51 GMT -6
That and the old style transistors and resistors were noisy beasts and you couldn't really hear all the flaws due to the high noise floors and such. With metal film resistors and low noise BJT/FETs of today, everything is a lot more clear and linear so things like harmonics that were under the noise floor before, are now out in the open to be heard. Seems like in the age of digital everything is too clean! Well, that's why in the 80's and 90's people were refitting studios with digital gear and throwing things like 1176's and LA2A's in dumpsters, only to find out a few years later that people hated the new digital sound and turned around to pay crazy prices for the same old gear that was worthless only a few years earlier.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 31, 2014 15:34:08 GMT -6
Imagine coming across a dumpster full of 1176's and LA2A's. Man alive that would feel good.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 31, 2014 15:39:09 GMT -6
Thanks, @matkatmusic!
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 31, 2014 15:48:55 GMT -6
Some talented folks I really trust, have done some extensive testing with the higher hfe's vs lower hfe transistors, as well as carbon comps, they say it matters, I for one very much believe them, and have been collecting the parts to find out for myself on my 6 DIY rev D's and 2 rev A's. So I'll let u all know when I'm done, in a couple 5 years lol
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 31, 2014 15:57:07 GMT -6
Some talented folks I really trust, have done some extensive testing with the higher hfe's vs lower hfe transistors, as well as carbon comps, they say it matters, I for one very much believe them, and have been collecting the parts to find out for myself on my 6 DIY rev D's and 2 rev A's. So I'll let u all know when I'm done, in a couple 5 years lol I like using carbon comps myself. Some will say there's nothing there, but there's differences IMO.
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Post by drbill on Jan 31, 2014 16:07:14 GMT -6
Imagine coming across a dumpster full of 1176's and LA2A's. Man alive that would feel good. It's definitely happened here in LA at least. A buddy who used to work @ Warner Bros. got several LA2A's and 1176's that way. But he did literally have to climb into a dumpster for them.....
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