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Post by Tbone81 on Jan 13, 2018 21:57:48 GMT -6
I have some paypal money thats burning a hole in my virtual pocket and I'm looking to unload it on a new ribbon mic. I have some singer songwriter sessions coming up that I think a nice ribbon would work great on. Based on reputation and a few sound clips I'm leaning towards buying the sr-2n from stager. My budget is around $600-700. Willing to buy new or used. Any other ribbons I should consider? I wasn't blown away by the Royer R-10 guitar clips I heard, I prefered the 101 clips, but I do like royers in general.
Any other mics I should be looking at? New or used in that price range?
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Post by wiz on Jan 13, 2018 23:12:56 GMT -6
I love my Rode NTR, gets mainly used on electric guitars here.. but its great
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by Tbone81 on Jan 13, 2018 23:34:52 GMT -6
Wow, that mic was totally off my radar but it looks intriguing. Wiz - how do you like it in drums/percussion?
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Post by wiz on Jan 13, 2018 23:48:05 GMT -6
Wow, that mic was totally off my radar but it looks intriguing. Wiz - how do you like it in drums/percussion? I haven't used it on drums, as I just have the one. Its very quiet and doesn't require much gain, runs off phantom and has internal amp. I have heard grand grand piano recorded with them and it was great cheers Wiz
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Post by Coil Audio on Jan 14, 2018 0:08:23 GMT -6
Matt Stager just designed a pretty awesome shock mount for the SR-2N(thats shipping now i believe) . You would not be sorry with that purchase. dense Mid-Range for days. Like a sub kick for your guitar cab and is killer on drums when paired with the right preamp.
The NTR is very different. Almost the complete opposite in terms of midrange and sounds almost too 'pretty' to be a ribbon. Cool mic as well but different vibe.
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Post by hadaja on Jan 14, 2018 2:49:33 GMT -6
Another Stager Sr2n and SR1a lover here.
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 14, 2018 3:05:48 GMT -6
I am endorsed by Royer Labs, I do want to be transparent there. With that said, the new R-10 is absolutely amazing. For a ribbon that cost's less than $500 it's the best out there IMO. The transformer is the main difference in the R-10 and R-121 but as I'd said, for the price you're getting the classic sound from a Royer and also you're getting a microphone that is reliable and is going to last you a very long time. The R-10 is built like a brick, they designed this mic to be on the stage as well as studio, so Royer made this mic durable as well. I've heard plenty of cascades and other worthy candidates, some that cost more, and they don't compare to that classic Royer sound. I would take a very long hard look at this mic. Also just as a note, the 101 is very good as well. The difference in the R-10 and R-101 has a lot to do with the screen vs. slotted. The R-10 is one you've got to get into your room and experiment with. It doesn't immediately react like a 121, but with careful placement it will settle right in. The reason I would go with the R-10 over the 101 is the fact that it's designed to be bumped around a bit as the transducer has a built in shock absorption. As I'd said, these mics are sensitive to the type of screen/slotted arrangement as well, so there are things that the R-10 will actually do better at by just throwing it up, but on guitar cabs you need to take some time in positioning, but once you find the spot you'll love the results. Same is true for the 101. The 121 is just one of those mics that you can throw up on anything and it sounds amazing. royerlabs.com/r-10/
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2018 3:17:06 GMT -6
No Hype Audio do one, the LRM-2 (and are working on a new one due out this year) but not tried it myself. Very reasonably priced. There are some clips on their site: www.nohypeaudio.com/nhaproducts.htmThere are the Cascade offerings too.
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Post by Quint on Jan 14, 2018 5:19:37 GMT -6
I've gotta try these Stagers.
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Post by adamjbrass on Jan 14, 2018 8:10:01 GMT -6
I've got a pair of SR2N with the Stereo Shockmount on the way. Will try and compare to the new Royer ribbon. The Stager has tons of "meat on the bone" to it. Very thick and phat.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jan 14, 2018 8:31:52 GMT -6
I am endorsed by Royer Labs, I do want to be transparent there. With that said, the new R-10 is absolutely amazing. For a ribbon that cost's less than $500 it's the best out there IMO. The transformer is the main difference in the R-10 and R-121 but as I'd said, for the price you're getting the classic sound from a Royer and also you're getting a microphone that is reliable and is going to last you a very long time. The R-10 is built like a brick, they designed this mic to be on the stage as well as studio, so Royer made this mic durable as well. I've heard plenty of cascades and other worthy candidates, some that cost more, and they don't compare to that classic Royer sound. I would take a very long hard look at this mic. Also just as a note, the 101 is very good as well. The difference in the R-10 and R-101 has a lot to do with the screen vs. slotted. The R-10 is one you've got to get into your room and experiment with. It doesn't immediately react like a 121, but with careful placement it will settle right in. The reason I would go with the R-10 over the 101 is the fact that it's designed to be bumped around a bit as the transducer has a built in shock absorption. As I'd said, these mics are sensitive to the type of screen/slotted arrangement as well, so there are things that the R-10 will actually do better at by just throwing it up, but on guitar cabs you need to take some time in positioning, but once you find the spot you'll love the results. Same is true for the 101. The 121 is just one of those mics that you can throw up on anything and it sounds amazing. royerlabs.com/r-10/I'll have to take a better look at the R-10, thanks. How does it compare on vocals? My primary use will be on vocals and as room/oh on drums. For reference I have m160 and two fatheads. The fatheads I'm selling, I like them but they're a little hit or miss. I'm actually going to buy a single fathead again in the future, most likely. I just don't feel compelled to have two of them.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jan 14, 2018 11:10:01 GMT -6
I got my fathead II’s on a whim as they were a B stock item and the price was right. They beat everything out for me as drum room mics in a Blum pair out in front of the kit about 6-10 feet or so. I keep them for that alone as they are “meh, take it or leave it” on every other source I’ve tried them on.
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Post by Quint on Jan 14, 2018 11:26:55 GMT -6
I've been wanting to experiment more with M-S using two ribbons. The thing that intrigues me about M-S is that I don't need matched mics, which means I can really tailor each to cater to the frequency response and sound that I want. I don't yet own a Coles 4038 (but I will eventually), but I would love to use a 4038 as a mid mic coupled with something like an Apex 205 (or a Fig 8 LDC) for the side mic. Coles for the direct meat of the drum kit, a ribbon with a more extended frequency response for the side mic. I also like the idea of M-S over Blumlein because one of the mics is pointed directly at the kit instead of 45 degrees off axis. It also means that you don't have to use identical preamps either, which is an additional level of flexibility available to tailor the individual channels.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 14, 2018 11:29:34 GMT -6
My Fatheads have the Lundahl option, which seemed an improvement over the stock version. The got much better with a Samar re-ribbon. Less resonance, better highs. I imagine a re-ribbon from any practiced hand would be improved. They can win on super shrill guitar amps and very sibilant singers. Before the re-ribbon, I subbed one for some lead vocal punch-ins after an RCA 44-B went home, and it was functionally indistinguishable for the job at hand.
You have an M160, how about an M130 for mid-side use? I use that for OH all the time.
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Post by Quint on Jan 14, 2018 11:38:28 GMT -6
My Fatheads have the Lundahl option, which seemed an improvement over the stock version. The got much better with a Samar re-ribbon. Less resonance, better highs. I imagine a re-ribbon from any practiced hand would be improved. They can win on super shrill guitar amps and very sibilant singers. Before the re-ribbon, I subbed one for some lead vocal punch-ins after an RCA 44-B went home, and it was functionally indistinguishable for the job at hand. You have an M160, how about an M130 for mid-side use? I use that for OH all the time. I do not have an M160, though I guess you're suggesting that because of it's focused pick up pattern to be used for the mid mic? My understanding is that you can use any pattern in the mid position as long as it's not omni. In that case, and due to my general love of ribbons, I would prefer to use something "fatter" like a 4038 in the mid mic position, and would also prefer to have a Fig 8 in the mid position due to superior nulls.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 14, 2018 11:44:37 GMT -6
I was addressing Tbone81 having an M160 already. It makes a compact package and works well with low ceilings.
Actually you can use an omni as mid also, classical guys do it all the time when working very close (not as close as we do!). Turn that sideways and point the + lobe of the 8 at the source, and you can derive any polar pattern after the fact. Classical guys do that for spot mics too.
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Post by Quint on Jan 14, 2018 11:53:10 GMT -6
I was addressing Tbone81 having an M160 already. It makes a compact package and works well with low ceilings. Actually you can use an omni as mid also, classical guys do it all the time when working very close (not as close as we do!). Turn that sideways and point the + lobe of the 8 at the source, and you can derive any polar pattern after the fact. Classical guys do that for spot mics too. I still need to spend more time researching all of the details on M-S. I don't know why, but I've never given it much thought. I've heard of using an omni in the mid position, but that was always in the context of distant micing such as an orchestral setting. Wouldn't the whole ability to encode the matrix fall apart with an omni in the mid position if you're close micing something, such as a drum kit 5 feet away? I'm no expert on this stuff. I need to spend some time reading up on the math behind all of this.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 14, 2018 12:07:00 GMT -6
There's a Wes Dooley paper that shows all the virtual pattern details, check it. I'm pretty sure you're backwards on omni usage, the further back you get the more directional the center has to be to cut back on ambience with distance and narrow stereo spread. Up close, you have a very wide stereo spread to capture, and wider to omni patterns fill in better. An omni center mixed 50/50 with the side is equivalent to a pair of cardioids facing opposite directions to the side, widest possible image, yet without the off-axis issues actual back to back cardioids have at 90º, since the omni is actually facing 0º.
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Post by Quint on Jan 14, 2018 12:28:56 GMT -6
There's a Wes Dooley paper that shows all the virtual pattern details, check it. I'm pretty sure you're backwards on omni usage, the further back you get the more directional the center has to be to cut back on ambience with distance and narrow stereo spread. Up close, you have a very wide stereo spread to capture, and wider to omni patterns fill in better. An omni center mixed 50/50 with the side is equivalent to a pair of cardioids facing opposite directions to the side, widest possible image, yet without the off-axis issues actual back to back cardioids have at 90º, since the omni is actually facing 0º. Ok. I very well may have it wrong about using omnis in the mid position. For my intended use, it may be a moot point because my preference is to use a Fig 8 in the mid position due to superior nulls. I don't necessarily want 100% pickup in all directions. I'd like to be able to place other instruments in those 45 degree offset nulls (though I realize those positions aren't as good as 90 degree nulls, but those aren't possible because of the side mic). Either way, I'd still like to gain a better understanding of how this all works though.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jan 14, 2018 12:30:25 GMT -6
My Fatheads have the Lundahl option, which seemed an improvement over the stock version. The got much better with a Samar re-ribbon. Less resonance, better highs. I imagine a re-ribbon from any practiced hand would be improved. They can win on super shrill guitar amps and very sibilant singers. Before the re-ribbon, I subbed one for some lead vocal punch-ins after an RCA 44-B went home, and it was functionally indistinguishable for the job at hand. You have an M160, how about an M130 for mid-side use? I use that for OH all the time. I forgot about the m130 actually. I've barely used my m160 and haven't tracked drums with it but I was imagining getting a second one at some point for OH duties. So far my limited experience with Beyer mics has left me very impressed. My fatheads I used as blumlien 3-5 feet in front of the drum kit and sometimes it's just perfect, sometimes those tracks get tossed. I can never predict if it's going to work. I do like them a lot on vocals. Very vibey. I'm not a big fan of MS although it's a technique that saved me a few times when I didn't have matching mics for stereo rooms. It's a weird stereo image to me, like its stereo but my ears can't tell if things are coming from left or right if that makes sense.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jan 14, 2018 12:36:02 GMT -6
I think I need to find a retailer that will let me demo a Rode NTR, Royer R-10, and Stager sr2n.
John - do you carry all these mics? I'm almost ready to pull the trigger.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 14, 2018 12:57:19 GMT -6
You have an M160, how about an M130 for mid-side use? I use that for OH all the time. I'm not a big fan of MS.... It's a weird stereo image to me, like its stereo but my ears can't tell if things are coming from left or right if that makes sense. That's what happens with too much Side in the blend. It should have very clear localization.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jan 14, 2018 13:03:36 GMT -6
I'm not a big fan of MS.... It's a weird stereo image to me, like its stereo but my ears can't tell if things are coming from left or right if that makes sense. That's what happens with too much Side in the blend. It should have very clear localization. Thanks, that actually gives me a lot to ponder. I'll have to play around with it more.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 14, 2018 13:12:24 GMT -6
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Post by Quint on Jan 14, 2018 13:46:07 GMT -6
Looking at the pics posted in that second link, I would have thought putting one mic directly behind the other would have caused some issues (phasing, blocking the rear lobe of the Fig 8 mid mic, etc.) versus putting one mic on top of the other with their ribbons/diaphrams lined up. According to the conversation in that thread, that appears to not be the case though. Interesting. I do like how it doesn't require the two mic setup to be so tall. Good luck finding something that could hold both of those mics if one of them is a 4038 though. You'd have to use two separate stands/clips I guess.
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