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Post by Quint on Dec 28, 2017 11:04:31 GMT -6
I just listened to some work I did long ago on that broadcast console with 33114 and 33115, tracked through the bus amps rather than the direct outs from the input modules. EQ's certainly engaged and used. I've not heard anything else like it. Certainly other 'genre' things are 'more similar than' other things, but nothing has been interchangeable. Did I already say it? I'm sure I did. Padded down so line will go through the mic preamp input transformer is an unintended Neve sound, done solely to sell the idea that it went through an input transformer...the wrong one....with a double trip through the preamp stage. I'm looking at the AML drawing, which I understand to be 'as original', I can't spot the right Neve drawings ATM. Pad it down, transformer then steps it back up +6 or +12, depends on how they have it interact with the input Z switch. The proper line transformer into the 2nd amp stage is 10K:600, quoted as -13dB, and the control range tells us it's immediately padded even more, to counter the gain range of the 2nd stage amp. Which feeds/buffers the EQ, or not. In short, skipping the line transformer and going with an input pad into the preamp transformer lowers gain more than an original, boosts it back up more, and runs it through an additional amp stage it wouldn't normally see. It allows removal of a transformer, a less complex stepped gain control, and leaves the 2nd stage amp in the gain state for mic input rather than switching to the line stage gain. Personally, I'd rather see original input path, even if it was an IC based balancing solution over the cost of another transformer. Ponder Neve's reasoning for having a complex dual input, rather than simply padding down line input by, what, 40-50dB(?), to squeeze it back through the same preamp stage. The could have saved a lot of dough, but didn't take that path. I don't think anyone is doubting what you're saying, at least I'm certainly not. That being said, even if the pad into the preamp circuit isn't identical or close to the way the line input was implemented in the original Neve, what if it's still a sound that people might like? My Vintech 573s do the same thing and I really like running line level through them even if it isn't "correctly" implemented. I don't believe that the Heritage 73jrs have a third transformer either, but people love up on them all day long. I can't afford eight original 1073s or even eight clones with identical parts and circuits like the BAE stuff. This new Warm or Heritage preamp may not be identical in sound. The thing is, I don't care. Is it still in the ballpark? I bet it is, and probably a lot closer than people with original Neves would care to admit. I'm just after good sound, not necessarily 1:1 identical sound of vintage equipment. I welcome the idea of the line input being padded down into input transformer on these clones, if the only other options are to either forego going through a transformer altogether or to substantially raise the price to add a third transformer and dedicated circuitry for a line input. It's a sound I like regardless of whether or not it's identical to the vintage equipment. I guess all I'm saying is that we should all just let these kind of products be what they are. Great quality clones which, though they may not be identical in sound, are still pretty close and manage to provide a similar vibe and great sound at a previously unaffordable price.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 28, 2017 11:33:54 GMT -6
I look for the "X" factor. Some things just have a vibe. I recently tried the Roswell Delphos, and the Chandler REDD mics, and they both had vibe like crazy. The Delphos didn't have an obvious flaw like most U87 style mics with Chinese parts typically do, so if it was a good fit, you could confidently do a album with it, and not feel like you made a mistake years later. The Chandler was vibe city, whether it's to your taste or not is of course important, but there was no doubt it was a monster in its own right. I just tried a Tyler JT-14 amp, it was obviously Fender-ish, but had its own cool vibe and sounded more lively when recorded.
So to me, the first quality I look for in any "in the style of", "based upon", "tribute" or clone product is if it have a vibe, something that just feels right and works, even if only in one context. Then I like to see how close it gets to the real deal. The Roswell is not a U87, but might supplant it in many applications. The REDD sounds different than a U47 or 251, but might be even more versatile.
I have the Stam SA73 single channel preamp. I've used a few Neve style preamps, the Great River had been the best so far, (haven't tried the RTZ yet), and to me the SA73 feels more like the original Neve. Side by side it might show some differences, I haven't had it in the same room as an original Neve. But, I have recored through the original Neve and did a shootout with the SSL 9000 preamps vs. the original Neve pres, so I have some familiarity with them. The SA73 has the kind of vibe I look for. There's detail, but a solidity and fullness in the low end that my API and REDD 47 style premps lacked. basically, it sound BIG, like a Neve.
So, is it indistinguishable from the original? I'd have to have them side by side, but I feel like the Stam did what it promised, deliver the Neve preamp sound at a great price. I had to sell all my outboard this year, including three preamps, but I kept the SA73, that should tell you something.
So I mainly care if the Warm or the Heritage has the vibe, not if it's entirely accurate. Right now, the Stam is a steal. The Heritage Elite with the EQ seems like a serious contender, as does the WARM, so I'm looking forward to hearing some reviews. Obviously, the jury's still out.
Since the Heritage Elite is an attempt to sound just like their higher priced pres at a lower price. I'm curious how close the Heritage came to sounding like a real Neve? I've never used one.
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Post by donr on Dec 28, 2017 11:46:16 GMT -6
I'll second the Stam 1073 pre recommendation, it sounds great on mics and make up gain for the Zulu. Don't have another 1073 flavor to compare though.
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Post by Quint on Dec 28, 2017 11:58:50 GMT -6
I look for the "X" factor. Some things just have a vibe. I recently tried the Roswell Delphos, and the Chandler REDD mics, and they both had vibe like crazy. The Delphos didn't have an obvious flaw like most U87 style mics with Chinese parts typically do, so if it was a good fit, you could confidently do a album with it, and not feel like you made a mistake years later. The Chandler was vibe city, whether it's to your taste or not is of course important, but there was no doubt it was a monster in its own right. I just tried a Tyler JT-14 amp, it was obviously Fender-ish, but had its own cool vibe and sounded more lively when recorded. So to me, the first quality I look for in any "in the style of", "based upon", "tribute" or clone product is if it have a vibe, something that just feels right and works, even if only in one context. Then I like to see how close it gets to the real deal. The Roswell is not a U87, but might supplant it in many applications. The REDD sounds different than a U47 or 251, but might be even more versatile. I have the Stam SA73 single channel preamp. I've used a few Neve style preamps, the Great River had been the best so far, (haven't tried the RTZ yet), and to me the SA73 feels more like the original Neve. Side by side it might show some differences, I haven't had it in the same room as an original Neve. But, I have recored through the original Neve and did a shootout with the SSL 9000 preamps vs. the original Neve pres, so I have some familiarity with them. The SA73 has the kind of vibe I look for. There's detail, but a solidity and fullness in the low end that my API and REDD 47 style premps lacked. basically, it sound BIG, like a Neve. So, is it indistinguishable from the original? I'd have to have them side by side, but I feel like the Stam did what it promised, deliver the Neve preamp sound at a great price. I had to sell all my outboard this year, including three preamps, but I kept the SA73, that should tell you something. So I mainly care if the Warm or the Heritage has the vibe, not if it's entirely accurate. Right now, the Stam is a steal. The Heritage Elite with the EQ seems like a serious contender, so I'm looking forward to hearing some reviews. Obviously, the jury's still out. Since the Heritage Elite is an attempt to sound just like their higher priced pres at a lower price. I'm curious how close the Heritage came to sounding like a real Neve? I've never used one. I'm in the same boat when it comes to these clones. Does it have a pretty similar vibe or give you the same essence of sound? Does it sound good, period, regardless of how close it may or may not sound to the original? Is it built well? Is the price right? If the answer to all four of those questions is yes, then it's something I'm going to have an interest in. Warm Audio, among other cloners as well, seems to have found that sweet spot. I have way more outboard gear now than I could have ever afforded ten years ago. I love the fact that I can track an entire band live, using only outboard preamps, comps and eqs and that the only thing I need the PC for is to act as a recording, editing and playback device. For 15k, you can get two 10-channel lunchboxes, 8 VP28s, 8 Electras, and 4 WA273-EQs. That's 16 channels of great preamps and 16 channels of great eqs. Throw in another 15k for mics, comps, interface, computer, cables and peripherals and you can have a really great setup to track full bands live for 30k. That's just not something that was possible ten years ago, at least not with this quality of gear. I'm all for it. Interesting times....
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Post by matt@IAA on Dec 28, 2017 13:46:15 GMT -6
I don't think anyone is griping about the idea of putting the gear in reach for less. I don't even mind them using parts of the 1073 circuitry and so on. I just wish they wouldn't use the magic numbers unless it is actually a circuit clone.
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Post by rowmat on Dec 28, 2017 14:53:49 GMT -6
I don't think anyone is griping about the idea of putting the gear in reach for less. I don't even mind them using parts of the 1073 circuitry and so on. I just wish they wouldn't use the magic numbers unless it is actually a circuit clone. Once upon a time a Neve 1081 was known as a "Channel Amplifier" and contained a microphone input transformer, a separate line input transformer a rather hefty output transformer and an excellent equaliser and filter circuits. It was also a foot high (12"). It looked like this... When these were originally produced Neve did not manufacture a micpre only version of a 1081 that was called a "1081". A 1081 was not a micpre, it was a "Channel Strip" as above. The same applied to the original Neve 1073's, 1084's etc. They were all channel strips WITH EQ. And the EQ was a critical part of the Neve sound for both tracking and mixing where the seperate line input transformer came into play. So to name a product a 1081, 1073, 1084 etc that only provide a microphone preamplifier even if is based on an historically correct circuit is both misleading and disingenuous. It started with AMS Neve themselves (technically other clone maker with Neve naming rights) and has been copied by other clone makers. Q. For example what would be the difference between a micpre only 1073 and a micpre only version of a 1084 if it was available? A. No difference. They both use the same micpre circuit. The difference is in the EQ stages. Hence the "73" and "84" refers to the different equaliser stages used in both. No doubt if enough people start deciding a Neve 1084 is more desirable than a 1073 (which the original version is) some crowd would likely start producing a micpre only clone of that which would be ridiculous as there would be no difference.
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Post by wiz on Dec 28, 2017 15:40:48 GMT -6
I don't think anyone is griping about the idea of putting the gear in reach for less. I don't even mind them using parts of the 1073 circuitry and so on. I just wish they wouldn't use the magic numbers unless it is actually a circuit clone. Once upon a time a Neve 1081 was known as a "Channel Amplifier" and contained a microphone input transformer, a separate line input transformer a rather hefty output transformer and an excellent equaliser and filter circuits. It was also a foot high (12"). It looked like this... When these were originally produced Neve did not manufacture a micpre only version of a 1081 that was called a "1081". A 1081 was not a micpre, it was a "Channel Strip" as above. The same applied to the original Neve 1073's, 1084's etc. They were all channel strips WITH EQ. And the EQ was a critical part of the Neve sound for both tracking and mixing where the seperate line input transformer came into play. So to name a product a 1081, 1073, 1084 etc that only provide a microphone preamplifier even if is based on an historically correct circuit is both misleading and disingenuous. It started with AMS Neve themselves (technically other clone maker with Neve naming rights) and has been copied by other clone makers. Q. For example what would be the difference between a micpre only 1073 and a micpre only version of a 1084 if it was available? A. No difference. They both use the same micpre circuit. The difference is in the EQ stages. Hence the model numbering between an original 1073 and a 1084 refers to the different equaliser stages used in both. No doubt if enough people start deciding a Neve 1084 is more desirable than a 1073 (which the original version is) some crowd would likely start producing a micpre only clone of that which would be ridiculous as there would be no difference. As a discussion point, I agree with all this. I have a BAE 1073DMP and a AML 1073/500. They sound different from each other. As does every other preamp I have. Its obvious to me, that people name things, LA2A, LA3A, 1073, 1081 etc U47, because they will sell. They (manufacturers) compare their products (as well as do we internet dweebs) all the time.. "does it sound as good as a KM84?" Its human nature I guess. Its only after you gain enough confidence in your work, that you can step away from this some....and judge things on their own merit. Its still very hard though, not to be allured by the names and numbers on the gear though.. for sure. I have taken the path, that I will buy the gear, try it, and sell it if it doesn't work for me. I try to buy second hand, and if I do flip it, I don't lose much and sometimes turn a profit. Also, I have found, that finished product you are happy with is definitely some of the parts... the different pieces of gear each add a little and then you have the context of the finished mix. For example my main vocal. The pairing of u87i into 1073DMP followed by STA Level gives me a good tracking sound to work with. Then during mix down, it will go out through the Delta EQ, into Stam SA2A followed by the Warm Audio 1176, and then maybe into a transformer I have wired to the patch bay or the Handsome Audio Zulu, depending on mix. Now if you were to compare that to just the u87i into the preamp...it would be worlds apart. My point being you can't rely on just hearing mic into preamp, really, you have to work with the mic and do some tunes with it, to really know if its going to work for you long term. cheers Wiz
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Post by rowmat on Dec 28, 2017 16:12:53 GMT -6
At the end of the day it comes down to the sound and whether the product being sold can produce results close to the design it is alluding to be based upon.
I don't particularly care if the design isn't totally identical but does it sound like it is, or close to it.
I have no issue with companies who make good clones of great gear most could not afford today and many of these clones do indeed sound great.
But yes, many are guilty of using too much artistic license when it comes to naming 'said' products.
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Post by hadaja on Dec 29, 2017 18:57:05 GMT -6
Hey Wiz are you up for one of the wa73 eq1 single units if i get Johnkehn to get us one each?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 29, 2017 22:53:33 GMT -6
My upcoming album was recorded piece by piece over three years. I had the Warm Audio WA12 and their Tonebeast, the Dizengoff D4 and the Apollo LA610 unison pre too. Some songs have three different preamps on the tracks. They all sounded good, but like anything else, use it enough and you begin to notice things that weren't so obvious originally. Eventually, those things became more prominent than the good qualities to me.
Recently, I did a simple song demo, but used only the Stam SA73 on all the tracks, and it sounds HUGE. It was the same untreated living room, same guitars and amps, same bass direct, same mic, same everything, and it was closer to the kind of sound I get with a recording console. Not exactly the same of course, but seriously satisfying.
So it became clear that I really like the Neve sound, (even though if given a choice, I'd choose as SSL console), so if Warm has done a good job with getting the Marinair thing right and the EQ right, then this thing should be a no brainer if you like the Neve sound but can't afford a true Neve pre.
I get that it sometimes feels cheap to see so many manufacturers referencing classic model numbers, but if you think about it, those are our references, and it tells you instantly the kind of sound a mic has. If manufacturers just said "our mic sounds comparable to the classic German mics", (which some do), it would seem too generic, and people would likely overlook it. But say, we've made something as close to a Neve or a U47 as we can between $800 and $1,200, well that gets your interest doesn't it.
Steve Remote, whose opinion I trust, has an SSL compressor, he also has the Stam SSL clone. He said with a little tweaking of the settings, he was able to get them to be indistinguishable. Now THAT'S something people should be damn glad about, not nagging about model numbers. It is what it is. Where I'd be pissed, would be if manufacturers like Heritage, or Stam or Warm were using those numbers and their products sounded shitty, but they don't, so I say bring it on manufacturers, bring it on.
Maybe this will wake Neumann from their slumber and they'll begin making U67's and U47's again.
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Post by cdkelly on Jan 11, 2018 18:09:23 GMT -6
There's nothing to change or upgrade. Maybe a mariner for a carnhill but at that point you might as well change them in your vintech, heritage, aml, etc... Looks really nice at any rate. I'm sure I'll get one. Or three. I guess the generic inductors in the EQ could be upgraded for the Carnhill inductors, though I'm not sure if it's actually possible...
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Post by cdkelly on Jan 11, 2018 18:12:52 GMT -6
My upcoming album was recorded piece by piece over three years. I had the Warm Audio WA12 and their Tonebeast, the Dizengoff D4 and the Apollo LA610 unison pre too. Some songs have three different preamps on the tracks. They all sounded good, but like anything else, use it enough and you begin to notice things that weren't so obvious originally. Eventually, those things became more prominent than the good qualities to me. Recently, I did a simple song demo, but used only the Stam SA73 on all the tracks, and it sounds HUGE. It was the same untreated living room, same guitars and amps, same bass direct, same mic, same everything, and it was closer to the kind of sound I get with a recording console. Not exactly the same of course, but seriously satisfying. So it became clear that I really like the Neve sound, (even though if given a choice, I'd choose as SSL console), so if Warm has done a good job with getting the Marinair thing right and the EQ right, then this thing should be a no brainer if you like the Neve sound but can't afford a true Neve pre. I get that it sometimes feels cheap to see so many manufacturers referencing classic model numbers, but if you think about it, those are our references, and it tells you instantly the kind of sound a mic has. If manufacturers just said "our mic sounds comparable to the classic German mics", (which some do), it would seem too generic, and people would likely overlook it. But say, we've made something as close to a Neve or a U47 as we can between $800 and $1,200, well that gets your interest doesn't it. Steve Remote, whose opinion I trust, has an SSL compressor, he also has the Stam SSL clone. He said with a little tweaking of the settings, he was able to get them to be indistinguishable. Now THAT'S something people should be damn glad about, not nagging about model numbers. It is what it is. Where I'd be pissed, would be if manufacturers like Heritage, or Stam or Warm were using those numbers and their products sounded shitty, but they don't, so I say bring it on manufacturers, bring it on. Maybe this will wake Neumann from their slumber and they'll begin making U67's and U47's again. Martin, the rumor has it that Neumann are showing a U67 re-issue at this year's NAMM. I will look for it!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 11, 2018 18:26:24 GMT -6
There's nothing to change or upgrade. Maybe a mariner for a carnhill but at that point you might as well change them in your vintech, heritage, aml, etc... Looks really nice at any rate. I'm sure I'll get one. Or three. I guess the generic inductors in the EQ could be upgraded for the Carnhill inductors, though I'm not sure if it's actually possible... While Carnhill maybe the Modern incarnation of the Original manufacturer, the modern iron is not of the same sound so they could be! But then others have directly commented negatively on certain OEM manufacturers of Transformers & inductors to find that other products they push use these same OEM's so I would advise don't go there! Many have realized that many "Boutique private label iron" are wound by generic OEMs to great reviews and because they are more than capable of producing great iron in some cases they have specific specialty winding cape abilities Audio manufacturers would can't justify! I respect Warm I like your gear But Come on Warms use of generic parts in other areas is how you keep prices down just because somebody makes different choices to hit similar price point in no way implies one is better.
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Post by ragan on Jan 11, 2018 18:34:20 GMT -6
?
I am totally confused as to how that is a response to what Chad said.
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Post by Quint on Jan 12, 2018 2:23:51 GMT -6
? I am totally confused as to how that is a response to what Chad said. I think Eric was responding to an "under the current" assertion by Chad (he used to work for Warm) that certain companies (like Warm, among others) have inferior transformers/inductors compared to other companies (like Heritage, among others), even if, in fact, the same OEMs are producing iron for both parties, to the same degree of quality for both parties.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 12, 2018 5:00:52 GMT -6
Personally, I found a steady increase in my perceived quality of Warm gear and I note it’s prices have moved a little higher I think related to build quality.
Before I bought my wa412 pre Bryce told me it’s a complete keeper. I’ll only sell it if I stop recording. Bryce has told me some things about the build quality of the WA neve stuff too, so I’ll be buying today with confidence and and expect to be super, super pleased.
My modded delta’s rockin now thx to Jim,Wiz and TonyC and I am digging it’s sound and dlx 4 band eq’s. I’ll be doing the hpf mod, lose 1 aux gain adjustable hpf.
So, I’ll be ordering the WA 73 2 channel pre no eq as I can easily insert the delta eq but I tend not to track with eq just filters .
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Post by ragan on Jan 12, 2018 9:08:33 GMT -6
? I am totally confused as to how that is a response to what Chad said. I think Eric was responding to an "under the current" assertion by Chad (he used to work for Warm) that certain companies (like Warm, among others) have inferior transformers/inductors compared to other companies (like Heritage, among others), even if, in fact, the same OEMs are producing iron for both parties, to the same degree of quality for both parties. Right but he was responding to Chad’s post which was echoing the sentiment that there’s really nothing to upgrade in these Warm pres. So mostly saying the same thing.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 12, 2018 9:15:54 GMT -6
CD Kelly quote was that pulled from the Heritage thread or am I blind ?
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Post by Quint on Jan 12, 2018 14:46:18 GMT -6
I think Eric was responding to an "under the current" assertion by Chad (he used to work for Warm) that certain companies (like Warm, among others) have inferior transformers/inductors compared to other companies (like Heritage, among others), even if, in fact, the same OEMs are producing iron for both parties, to the same degree of quality for both parties. Right but he was responding to Chad’s post which was echoing the sentiment that there’s really nothing to upgrade in these Warm pres. So mostly saying the same thing. No, I read Chad's post as taking a swipe at Warm, basically saying that "the Warm has generic parts, and that he doubts it would be possible to upgrade them even if you wanted to, but why would you want to bother on something so generic?". Or something like that. He's been taking swipes at Warm elsewhere, so it fits the pattern.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 12, 2018 15:46:17 GMT -6
Best to move on with grace.
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Post by drbill on Jan 12, 2018 16:04:23 GMT -6
Best to move on with grace. Yeah, you could.....but the Grace's sound nothing like a 1073.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 12, 2018 16:06:57 GMT -6
Best to move on with grace. Yeah, you could.....but the Grace's sound nothing like a 1073. Best to 1073 with Warmth...
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Post by ragan on Jan 12, 2018 16:22:58 GMT -6
Right but he was responding to Chad’s post which was echoing the sentiment that there’s really nothing to upgrade in these Warm pres. So mostly saying the same thing. No, I read Chad's post as taking a swipe at Warm, basically saying that "the Warm has generic parts, and that he doubts it would be possible to upgrade them even if you wanted to, but why would you want to bother on something so generic?". Or something like that. He's been taking swipes at Warm elsewhere, so it fits the pattern. Oh wow. I did not read it that way at all. I thought he was saying “I guess you could swap in _______, if anything, though I don’t see the point”. Since he was replying to Rocinante’s comment that nothing needing upgrading. I wonder which interpretation is correct.
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Post by swurveman on Jan 12, 2018 16:25:11 GMT -6
One concession to cost that has not come up yet— appears they did not include line input transformers, FWIW. I wonder if the Heritage Elite did the same? Also it has an internal power supply. I really don't know enough about the subject to weigh in, but the BAE website says, "When power supplies are built into the same chassis as the audio circuitry, nearby audio paths are susceptible to nasty magnetic fields radiated from the transformers, which adds noise and hum. Additionally, the preamp’s components are subject to extra heat generated from transformers, regulators, and rectifiers—and as we all know, heat is the enemy of electronics. It causes unwanted changes in operational parameters and premature component failure." I have no idea of the validity of this scientifically. If others have opinions/facts concerning the science I'd be interested in knowing about it. That being said, my Vintech clone (4-1073i's) has an external power supply, while my API 3124 is internal- and both are quiet to me. One has EQ and the other doesn't though. The only EQ I have is a GML 8200 and it has an external power supply as well. I will say that it's nice to drive my four Vintech's from one power supply. I have too many power chords as it is.
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Post by Quint on Jan 12, 2018 16:49:49 GMT -6
No, I read Chad's post as taking a swipe at Warm, basically saying that "the Warm has generic parts, and that he doubts it would be possible to upgrade them even if you wanted to, but why would you want to bother on something so generic?". Or something like that. He's been taking swipes at Warm elsewhere, so it fits the pattern. Oh wow. I did not read it that way at all. I thought he was saying “I guess you could swap in _______, if anything, though I don’t see the point”. Since he was replying to Rocinante’s comment that nothing needing upgrading. I wonder which interpretation is correct. Check out his other recent posts about the new Warm 1073 stuff here and on GS. It will paint a picture.
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