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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2017 14:36:03 GMT -6
The "art" has turned into a hobby with people having dramatically less performing experience. That's more than a little true. I went on the road at 18 in the late sixties. I think I was a regular, run-of-the-mill guitarist, but I worked 5 hours a night, 7 nights a week for years. There were clubs just about everywhere and the discotheque was a bad joke (some things don't change). Aside from giving you plenty of time to develop your chops, it gave you the confidence to work around situations--a broken string, a bad mic, bad nightlines on stage, a fight going on at the bar. You learned to sit in with other bands and to welcome their players on-stage. That experience, while perhaps not always relevant in recording, did give musicians the confidence that they could pull something off. It gave you the ability to work up an accompaniment in zero time. And it let you shake it off when things didn't go as planned. My musical interests changed--coincidentally--at about the time this world went away. The huge number of clubs was based in part on the fact that we were involved in a very large war. All of those soldiers and sailors needed a place to kick back for a little while, and a club with a live band was just the ticket. The war ended, thank goodness, but the club scene dried up and was replaced by a guy with a turntable. I remember several of the younger folks at Lexicon would occasionally get a set or two at one of the remaining clubs around Boston. They'd stick up posters all over for an hour's worth of live music. That's all the opportunity there was. I always felt really bad for them. Nothing wrong with them, and their musical dreams were as valid as anyone else's. But to get just a few hours of live play over the course of a year just wasn't (isn't) enough to let someone hone their craft.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 19, 2017 14:47:14 GMT -6
I disagree. Kids wanna dance. So what? Dancing doesn't equate to learning an instrument, joining a band, paying your dues, and taking music back to 1970 (or choose your favorite era) again. I'll say it again - kids don't care about music, learning an instrument, getting in a band, playing out. It's a dead (for all intents and purposes) paradigm that passed (or is in the state of passing) with the older generation of musicians. OF COURSE there are EXTREMELY notable exceptions. But exceptions to the rule don't make a scene. You missed my point, which is that musicians dropped the ball big time when thery stopped playing dance music. Most current forms of brock music are not anything that imspires dancing. We saw the same thing back in the '50s with jazz - it because music for intellectuals and virtuosos - so the primary audience became critics and other musicians. Be-bop? You'd need a 5 legged horse hopped up on a carton of Benzedrine inhalers to dance to that. Soi jazz died as a popular form and rock and roll moved in. If we want to revitalize music we have to make it DANCEABLE. If you build it, they will come.
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Post by drbill on Aug 19, 2017 14:57:49 GMT -6
So what? Dancing doesn't equate to learning an instrument, joining a band, paying your dues, and taking music back to 1970 (or choose your favorite era) again. I'll say it again - kids don't care about music, learning an instrument, getting in a band, playing out. It's a dead (for all intents and purposes) paradigm that passed (or is in the state of passing) with the older generation of musicians. OF COURSE there are EXTREMELY notable exceptions. But exceptions to the rule don't make a scene. You missed my point, which is that musicians dropped the ball big time when thery stopped playing dance music. Most current forms of brock music are not anything that imspires dancing. We saw the same thing back in the '50s with jazz - it because music for intellectuals and virtuosos - so the primary audience became critics and other musicians. Be-bop? You'd need a 5 legged horse hopped up on a carton of Benzedrine inhalers to dance to that. Soi jazz died as a popular form and rock and roll moved in. If we want to revitalize music we have to make it DANCEABLE. If you build it, they will come. No my friend, YOU missed MY point. Dance music is not going to change the current state of affairs.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 19, 2017 15:00:27 GMT -6
Of course kids can't imagine they could want something that they haven't ever experienced. The pop music market split after the Beatles with men following the Who and other listening/concert artists while women were sticking with dancing. I'll never forget the steam coming out of some people's ears when Michael Jackson took over the biggest selling album slot from the Eagles.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 19, 2017 15:01:22 GMT -6
I'll bet live dance music could.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2017 15:03:07 GMT -6
You missed my point, which is that musicians dropped the ball big time when thery stopped playing dance music. Most current forms of brock music are not anything that imspires dancing. I won't really argue with you. I gave up my bona fides as a rock musician 35 years ago. But there's plenty of pop music since my time (think The Police, Hall and Oates, Prince, Michael Jackson) who managed to get them out on the floor even with plenty of meter changes and unpredictable harmonies. My main point (and perhaps Bob's) is that all of those players had to develop those skills somewhere and those places aren't there any more. Practicing in the basement won't get that intimacy with a crowd. But I will tell you a story that's funny (at least to me). Late seventies and I had a quartet that specialized in odd-meter stuff, with lots of improvisation. Combination of Mahavishnu, Don Ellis, Dave Brubeck etc. There were plenty of folks who could move around quite well to that music, even when the meter was 11/16. But there were others. Played a gig where everybody was dressed up in white suits trying to look like John Travolta. Watching them trying to dance and maintain (what they thought to be) their cool was hilarious!
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 19, 2017 15:17:47 GMT -6
The "art" has turned into a hobby with people having dramatically less performing experience. My musical interests changed--coincidentally--at about the time this world went away. The huge number of clubs was based in part on the fact that we were involved in a very large war. All of those soldiers and sailors needed a place to kick back for a little while, and a club with a live band was just the ticket. The war ended, thank goodness, but the club scene dried up and was replaced by a guy with a turntable. Sorry to keep harping on this, but those soldiers and sailors went to the clubs LOOKING FOR CHICKS, The chicks were there to dance. When rock music lapsed into self-indulgent virtuosity the chicks went away. Nobody wants to see wannabe Yngwie showing off how fast he is except other wannabe Yngwies. Nobody wants to hear some prog band display their knowledge of esoteric modes in some time signature that you'd have to be a be-bop drummer to count. An hour's worth of live music. Right. That brings me to the other big problem - musicians who don't want to play, who think that one set a night is enough. Which goes hand in hand with idiots who think that they're big stars who deserve to get paid for playing a handful of mediocre originals. You need to play a night's worth of music, not one set. When it's active, my country band does one set of originals, about 45 minutes to an hour's worth, maybe a bit more. But we intersperse those originals among another 2 or 3 sets worth of "country classics". The people aren't really there to hear our originals, except maybe for a couple of friends. The people are there to dance to mostly familiar sounding country tunes. I regard it as high praise when taking a break after doing a set of half original material somebody comes up to mke and asks if we do any originals. If they can't tell the difference between my stuff and songs by Merle, Buck, Willie and George then I must be doing something right! The other point is that I only cover tunes that speak to me personally. If I can't be emotionally invested in the tune in some way I won't do it. One of the things that keeps country a viable tradition is that everybody has always done material by other people. Even a guy like Willie Nelson does covers, and he could fill a couple of night with his own material. I'd love to get paid for just doing one set of originals (with a couple of favorite covers thrown in) - but at any given time the repertoire is FOUR SETS. Something I've started running into that really pisses me off is musicians who think they're too good to rehearse. Hey, even if you do happen to know all the tunes (which you don't), you need to know the arrangements. You have to learn the cues. I don't care how many jam sessions you do a week.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 19, 2017 15:21:35 GMT -6
You missed my point, which is that musicians dropped the ball big time when thery stopped playing dance music. Most current forms of brock music are not anything that imspires dancing. We saw the same thing back in the '50s with jazz - it because music for intellectuals and virtuosos - so the primary audience became critics and other musicians. Be-bop? You'd need a 5 legged horse hopped up on a carton of Benzedrine inhalers to dance to that. Soi jazz died as a popular form and rock and roll moved in. If we want to revitalize music we have to make it DANCEABLE. If you build it, they will come. No my friend, YOU missed MY point. Dance music is not going to change the current state of affairs. Dance music is the ONLY thing that can change the current state of affairs. You are not going to convince kids to get into music that doesn't interest them. Kids like to dance. It's built in. You want kids to buy your music, give them something to dance to.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 19, 2017 15:27:02 GMT -6
I disagree. Kids wanna dance. So what? Dancing doesn't equate to learning an instrument, joining a band, paying your dues, and taking music back to 1970 (or choose your favorite era) again. I'll say it again - kids don't care about music, learning an instrument, getting in a band, playing out. It's a dead (for all intents and purposes) paradigm that passed (or is in the state of passing) with the older generation of musicians. OF COURSE there are EXTREMELY notable exceptions. But exceptions to the rule don't make a scene. Really? In my day, kids learned guitar to play at dances so they could get chicks, who would come to dance. In many cases the kids learned to play because they were otherwise somewhat dorky kids who didn't have much chance out on the dance floor. Maybe you'd get a socially popular extrovert to front the band. Those guys, of course, were in it to get MORE chicks. Weren't you ever young?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 19, 2017 15:50:20 GMT -6
So what?  Dancing doesn't equate to learning an instrument, joining  a band, paying your dues, and taking music back to 1970 (or choose your favorite era) again.  I'll say it again - kids don't care about music, learning an instrument, getting in a band, playing out.  It's a dead (for all intents and purposes) paradigm that passed (or is in the state of passing) with the older generation of musicians.  OF COURSE there are EXTREMELY notable exceptions.  But exceptions to the rule don't make a scene. Really? In my day, kids learned guitar to play at dances so they could get chicks, who would come to dance. In many cases the kids learned to play because they were otherwise somewhat dorky kids who didn't have much chance out on the dance floor. Maybe you'd get a socially popular extrovert to front the band. Those guys, of course, were in it to get MORE chicks. Weren't you ever young? You do realize that electronic music and hip hop stuff is actually music right. These styles didn't exist when you were at these sock hops. These are the current forms of dance music. If you want to get chicks dancing these days, you don't grab a guitar, you grab Ableton.
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Post by drbill on Aug 19, 2017 16:19:57 GMT -6
Really? In my day, kids learned guitar to play at dances so they could get chicks, who would come to dance. In many cases the kids learned to play because they were otherwise somewhat dorky kids who didn't have much chance out on the dance floor. Maybe you'd get a socially popular extrovert to front the band. Those guys, of course, were in it to get MORE chicks. Weren't you ever young? You do realize that electronic music and hip hop stuff is actually music right. These styles didn't exist when you were at these sock hops. These are the current forms of dance music. If you want to get chicks dancing these days, you don't grab a guitar, you grab Ableton. Exactly. Or a turntable. As much as I love em, guitars are....passe....... At least for John's dancing teens....
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 19, 2017 16:45:35 GMT -6
GOOD live dance music is better than a D.J.
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Post by wiz on Aug 19, 2017 17:04:41 GMT -6
Even if we fill the halls with dancing teenagers....
How do we seperate them from their money.... to purchase recorded music?
Riddle me THAT Batman!
8)
cheers
Wiz
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Post by rowmat on Aug 19, 2017 17:14:45 GMT -6
Even if we fill the halls with dancing teenagers.... How do we seperate them from their money.... to purchase recorded music? Riddle me THAT Batman! 8) cheers Wiz They are already being seperated from their money at dance gigs (raves) but it ain't music they're purchasing... if you get my drift.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 19, 2017 17:26:48 GMT -6
They become engaged fans of artists with a relationship.
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Post by Guitar on Aug 19, 2017 17:51:27 GMT -6
You guys must not know the same "kids" I know, hahaha.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 19, 2017 20:57:48 GMT -6
Really? In my day, kids learned guitar to play at dances so they could get chicks, who would come to dance. In many cases the kids learned to play because they were otherwise somewhat dorky kids who didn't have much chance out on the dance floor. Maybe you'd get a socially popular extrovert to front the band. Those guys, of course, were in it to get MORE chicks. Weren't you ever young? You do realize that electronic music and hip hop stuff is actually music right. These styles didn't exist when you were at these sock hops. These are the current forms of dance music. If you want to get chicks dancing these days, you don't grab a guitar, you grab Ableton. Only because kids with guitars dropped the ball. I didn't say anything about electronica and I didn't say anything about which art hip-hop might belong to. I have my own thoughts on that last but it has NOTHING to do with what I've been talking about. Nothing. And I'd thank you to not drag this discussion into that particular morass. And your passive agressive defensivenes does not display your position in good stead.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 19, 2017 21:03:35 GMT -6
Even if we fill the halls with dancing teenagers.... How do we seperate them from their money.... to purchase recorded music? Riddle me THAT Batman! 8) cheers Wiz We don't have to worry about that in this context. That's a business matter between the music industry, the tech industry, and the government and it has 100% to do with government regulation, or lack of it, depending on which aspect you're examining. What we're talking about here is building an audience. If you don't interest the audience they're sure as HELL not going to buy anything from you. And while we're on that, last year (or was it 2015?) marked the first time that sales of "legacy music" passed sales of new music. It ain't geezers buying all those records - it's young hipsters. Geezers already own all that.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 19, 2017 21:09:26 GMT -6
Hip Hop and electronica are both older today than Glen Miller and Benny Goodman were in the 1960s! There has been no innovation, just cheaper productions of old pfhart Muzak.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 19, 2017 21:15:18 GMT -6
I find it both utterly hilarious and tragic beyond words that the people who are pissing and moaning about how the industry is dying, kids aren't interersted in music these days, blah blah and woof woof are totally rejecting any and all constructive suggestions for a viable solution out of hand.
Un-f*cking-believable...
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 19, 2017 21:22:57 GMT -6
Hip Hop and electronica are both older today than Glen Miller and Benny Goodman were in the 1960s! There has been no innovation, just cheaper productions of old pfhart Muzak. Now that you bring it up, hip-hop is a direct descendant of "the dozens", which was an urban black pastime of street rhyming/ swapping good nature insults of the '50s and maybe before. A commercialized example of the dozens is Bo Diddley's cut "Say Man". Electronica started in the early '60s with the work of Morton Subotnik and others at the RCA experimental music lab and a few other locations such as Mills College. And let's not forget the BBC electronic music lab.
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Post by drbill on Aug 19, 2017 21:36:36 GMT -6
It ain't geezers buying all those records - it's young hipsters. Geezers already own all that. Or it's geezers that just figured out what CD's are. Or geezers that owned it, forgot they owned it, and bought it again.
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Post by drbill on Aug 19, 2017 21:39:17 GMT -6
I find it both utterly hilarious and tragic beyond words that the people who are pissing and moaning about how the industry is dying, kids aren't interersted in music these days, blah blah and woof woof are totally rejecting any and all constructive suggestions for a viable solution out of hand. Un-f*cking-believable... I've got my own solution. I'm very happy with it. It's supporting a VERY nice lifestyle that I love, and a really cool studio. And it's 100% funded by MUSIC. Is your lifestyle funded solely by music? No? Then maybe someone else saying something might have an interesting point besides yours. Personally, I find your constructive suggestions shortsighted in todays market. It ain't 1965 any more.....
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 19, 2017 21:48:30 GMT -6
You do realize that electronic music and hip hop stuff is actually music right. These styles didn't exist when you were at these sock hops. These are the current forms of dance music. If you want to get chicks dancing these days, you don't grab a guitar, you grab Ableton. Exactly. Or a turntable. As much as I love em, guitars are....passe....... At least for John's dancing teens.... No. Kids will dance to anything danceable. But if people with guitars don't play anything danceable, well, then.....
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Post by yotonic on Aug 19, 2017 22:10:04 GMT -6
I still come across truly gifted players and songwriters on a regular basis - whether the commercial machinery is in place to elevate as many of them as radio and A&R did in the 70s - probably not. But they are still coming. Just like they did before the 70s. There will always be amazingly gifted players and writers, now it just seems harder to filter them out of all the noise out there without the curation of the old A&R departments. And a lot of them aren't doing it for the "record contract" anymore, those days are gone and so are the hordes of posers. "At times" it seems to have returned some nobility to the craft as the gifted artists are grinding it even without the promise of commercial success. Yes there are a lot more mediocre people playing instruments, and making records with their laptops, but there are just as many super gifted musicians now as there were "then". That upper 10% of players seems to have more to do with nature and seems to stay pretty constant throughout the decades across genres. I just met Jacob Collier a few weeks ago and he's a truly gifted player who Quincy Jones is mentoring. The kid is relevant and fresh and the crowds at his shows span from high schoolers to retirees. The "hoardes of posers"? Fewer? I VEHEMENTLY disagree. There are far more posers, fakes, "bedroom dabblers", and other sources of random interference/noise in the market than ever in history. There used to be gateways that insured a certain minimum level of talent and skill. Now any kid who can raid his mom's purse for enough twenties to score a library of loops at GC - or more likely just steal it off the internet - is a "pahdoosah" and "artist". They even claim to be "musicians" althoughh they can't play a note on any real instrument. It's a travesty. It's an infinitely tragic state of affairs. There is no longer a way to attain recognition on the basis of merit alone. There is no longer any reward or recognition for real talent. That's not to say that real talent doesn't get through - but only with other money behind them because the industry itself has no funds for artist development. My guess is you don't work in the business and that your vehement disagreement is based upon opinion rather than professional observation. I can see why you might have the impression that it's worse today, but for some reason it's not. Or maybe it's just different. I work in the venue business and there are less of the annoying 80s/90s arrogant long haired wanna be rockers with their half a million dollars in gear bugging you for gigs like they're going to be the next Motley Crue. I honestly believe the internet has helped pop their bubbles somehow, or they're all 65, or perhaps posers today are just a little better informed about the business with all of the behind the scenes information today. There are certainly still plenty of artists woefully misguided about their talent level but they seem to play less "dress up and make believe rock star". There's little to no fame or money in it today, so those kinds of people gravitate towards the easier ways to get on TV or get rich. Being a touring band/artist today is a grind and that's why a lot of talented people up and quit or move on from what appear to be largely successful careers. By the way there are still PLENTY of gateways thank god. "In general" shitty bands don't get gigs in pro venues, they don't get booking agents, they don't get label and tour support. You might not like them, but on average the majority of them are not shitty bands and they usually are the better incarnations of their genre. And they can build their own base and business that translates to ticket sales. Today the people that complain the most are often the ones the least qualified to be there anyhow, people for whom music should remain a hobby. There absolutely is recognition and moderate to excellent financial reward for real talent, just far less room for average talent. I personally like that.
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