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Post by indiehouse on Jul 31, 2017 8:52:03 GMT -6
Every so often I start second guessing my decision to stay put at my job (I work at a university as an audio/video producer). I always ask myself if I would make as much money running a studio full-time as I do currently (not even considering all of the benefits). The answer is always "no".
What's the average income of an audio engineer? Not the guys working with major label names, either. I'm talking about the guys in the midwest trenches (not in expensive areas like LA or NY) working mostly with local/regional bands.
$30k?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 31, 2017 10:19:34 GMT -6
Every so often I start second guessing my decision to stay put at my job (I work at a university as an audio/video producer). I always ask myself if I would make as much money running a studio full-time as I do currently (not even considering all of the benefits). The answer is always "no". What's the average income of an audio engineer? Not the guys working with major label names, either. I'm talking about the guys in the midwest trenches (not in expensive areas like LA or NY) working mostly with local/regional bands. $30k? Most of the studio owners who don't have a " real " job would kill for the security and benefits you have ! Even those who do will would kill for the security of constant cash flow.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 31, 2017 10:27:02 GMT -6
Impossible to say. Many would call $30K high, given how little they charge and how much they struggle to get work in the door. Others that managed to get themselves consistently busy would call it low. I've been doing this 23 years now, and have seen every variation. There is absolutely nothing about my income that I have ever been able to predict. I can work every day for 2 straight months and not know it's coming 2 days before it starts. I can finish a run like that and not have work for 4 months. Etc.
There is always something to buy. There are no paid sick days, vacation days, and no such thing as unemployment wages. You can get into workman's comp if you elect to pay in preemptively. You can have insurance that pays for loss of income under a tight set of situations, really just limited disaster insurance with a ton of paperwork.
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 31, 2017 10:56:14 GMT -6
If you have social securty and fun stay there. I would not live as an guitar player / instructor / recording artist if there where no social securty in Germany for me.
But thank god it has been decided in 1983 that social securty systems are open for all the German artists. It makes sense, becasue most often we are not earning the big bucks.
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Post by drbill on Jul 31, 2017 11:40:01 GMT -6
It's somewhere between $12k and $350k a year. It's whatever YOU bring to it. If you've got hits under your belt, if you've got the clients, and they will pay, then you can make a lot of money. If you don't, you'll starve. Only you know for sure.
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Post by Bender on Jul 31, 2017 12:15:49 GMT -6
If you have social securty and fun stay there. I would not live as an guitar player / instructor / recording artist if there where no social securty in Germany for me. But thank god it has been decided in 1983 that social securty systems are open for all the German artists. It makes sense, becasue most often we are not earning the big bucks. Still remember the look I received when I told some Austrians what we have to pay for school and healthcare...
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 31, 2017 15:24:29 GMT -6
If you have social securty and fun stay there. I would not live as an guitar player / instructor / recording artist if there where no social securty in Germany for me. But thank god it has been decided in 1983 that social securty systems are open for all the German artists. It makes sense, becasue most often we are not earning the big bucks. Still remember the look I received when I told some Austrians what we have to pay for school and healthcare... That reminds me on the stroies from my freinds in Boston. She has a good job and everything is coverd, but he - oh boy -. I always said it and I say it again, if there is a good afordable SC system and a granted unconditional basic income. People would do what they are good at, what they love - highly motivated and happy. For example someone could care of his old father/mother etc. without any worries to run out of money. Studies show that this system would lead in a higher GDP. And it would save tons of taxes for everyone. Ok enough from my old job, we scrape the political field and thats not aloud on RGO.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 31, 2017 16:12:14 GMT -6
Still remember the look I received when I told some Austrians what we have to pay for school and healthcare... That reminds me on the stroies from my freinds in Boston. She has a good job and everything is coverd, but he - oh boy -. I always said it and I say it again, if there is a good afordable SC system and a granted unconditional basic income. People would do what they are good at, what they love - highly motivated and happy. For example someone could care of his old father/mother etc. without any worries to run out of money. Studies show that this system would lead in a higher GDP. And it would save tons of taxes for everyone. Ok enough from my old job, we scrape the political field and thats not aloud on RGO. Politics? No, it's nothing but good sociology and economics which, last time I looked, were recognized social sciences. It only gets to be politics when the damn politicians start mucking around with it.
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Post by swurveman on Jul 31, 2017 16:40:44 GMT -6
There is always something to buy. There are no paid sick days, vacation days, and no such thing as unemployment wages. You can get into workman's comp if you elect to pay in preemptively. You can have insurance that pays for loss of income under a tight set of situations, really just limited disaster insurance with a ton of paperwork. And no group health insurance, unless I am missing a group opportunity I'd like to have.
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Post by Ward on Jul 31, 2017 17:19:49 GMT -6
There is always something to buy. There are no paid sick days, vacation days, and no such thing as unemployment wages. You can get into workman's comp if you elect to pay in preemptively. You can have insurance that pays for loss of income under a tight set of situations, really just limited disaster insurance with a ton of paperwork. And no group health insurance, unless I am missing a group opportunity I'd like to have. Group health insurance only works if the users are paying in more than they are taking out. Either directly or through their income taxes. There is no such thing as free healthcare or education, for that matter. Someone is paying! Everyone is paying.
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Post by noah shain on Jul 31, 2017 20:53:29 GMT -6
I'm in LA but I'm very much a workaday, journeyman engineer/producer/mixer guy.
Bad years for me have been around 60k (gross). Average years are 80-100k. Good years are 100 and up. The most I've ever grossed is around 180k.
But I gotta factor in $2200 a month for my studio, $150 a month for internet (it's commercial and only 1 choice in providers so...no choice), $200 a month for insurance.
LA is an expensive city to live in as well...it's a hustle for sure.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jul 31, 2017 21:32:31 GMT -6
When I was doing nothing but music work full time I would Net around 30k. This was also in LA and I squeezed by like that for about 13 years. I could have made more but I didn't want to tour or live on the road doing live sound work.
Now I have another career that pays my bills and provides me insurance/retirement benefits. I still do professional music work but only a few days a week (if that). I'm in the process of re-structuring my business but my goals now are modest. If I can Net 15K a year doing music I would be very happy. Hopefully I'll reach that soon-ish.
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 1, 2017 5:21:07 GMT -6
I'm in LA but I'm very much a workaday, journeyman engineer/producer/mixer guy. Bad years for me have been around 60k (gross). Average years are 80-100k. Good years are 100 and up. The most I've ever grossed is around 180k. But I gotta factor in $2200 a month for my studio, $150 a month for internet (it's commercial and only 1 choice in providers so...no choice), $200 a month for insurance. LA is an expensive city to live in as well...it's a hustle for sure. That includes royalities as a producer / songwriter???
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Post by Ward on Aug 1, 2017 6:44:31 GMT -6
I'm in LA but I'm very much a workaday, journeyman engineer/producer/mixer guy. Bad years for me have been around 60k (gross). Average years are 80-100k. Good years are 100 and up. The most I've ever grossed is around 180k. But I gotta factor in $2200 a month for my studio, $150 a month for internet (it's commercial and only 1 choice in providers so...no choice), $200 a month for insurance. LA is an expensive city to live in as well...it's a hustle for sure. That includes royalities as a producer / songwriter??? What royalties? Who gets royalties any more??? I'm still waiting on royalties from (a certain label I can't name due to legal crap) from the late 90s!!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 1, 2017 6:55:06 GMT -6
That includes royalities as a producer / songwriter??? What royalties? Who gets royalties any more??? I'm still waiting on royalties from (a certain label I can't name due to legal crap) from the late 90s!! Who isn't ? But I do get a couple of checks a year worth less than the postage!
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Post by EmRR on Aug 1, 2017 7:13:54 GMT -6
I've never seen a royalty.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 1, 2017 7:33:52 GMT -6
I'm pretty sure the music portion of my engineering work will not cover costs this year. Freelance corporate and broadcast looks like the majority. Tech work will be a large fraction. Last year was more 50/50 on the engineering balance. I never went looking for corporate/broadcast work, but it found me; i could work in that field every day if I just wanted 'a job'. In my market the step up to the top tier runs $750/day for a couple million $ room. Much of the competition doing lower tier local acts are $10-25/hr. One friend had a room with a Quad Eight console and a large selection of tape machines, asking $25/hr (I believe) and not getting enough work. There are quite a few trust fund guys with large investments and rates that don't add up to a business plan. There are so many competitors I couldn't begin to be aware of them all. There's not a reliably available studio space I could work out of, without having my own. Likewise there's never been any pool of freelancers who've wanted to use mine. I suspect the majority (spaces and skills) sit unused far more days than not.
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Post by massivemastering on Aug 1, 2017 9:22:53 GMT -6
As a studio manager / chief engineer back in the 90's, I was making a base salary of $25k (W2) plus a (percentage that I don't recall) of the studio's net. It wasn't silly money by any means -- but it was carving out a living. No other benefits but the wife had a job that covered insurance and what not at the time, so it worked out.
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Post by Ward on Aug 1, 2017 9:31:19 GMT -6
In answer to the OP's indiehouse original question, the average seems to be around $30K per year. I.E. Peanuts.
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Post by swurveman on Aug 1, 2017 9:38:41 GMT -6
And no group health insurance, unless I am missing a group opportunity I'd like to have. Group health insurance only works if the users are paying in more than they are taking out. Either directly or through their income taxes. There is no such thing as free healthcare or education, for that matter. Someone is paying! Everyone is paying. I'm talking about the bargaining power of large groups vs individuals. My wife-same age same health condition (very good)- pays 1/3 I do in premiums and has 1/4 of the deductible because she is on a group plan from the city we live in. My former peers at Xerox' premiums and deductibles are well below what I pay because I am marginalized as an studio owner with no bargaining power. I have no idea where you're coming from with your "free healthcare" statement. I pay 100% of my insurance with no subsidies.
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Post by mulmany on Aug 1, 2017 10:20:12 GMT -6
Doesn't AES offer a group insurance for members?
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 1, 2017 11:08:12 GMT -6
I'm in LA but I'm very much a workaday, journeyman engineer/producer/mixer guy. Bad years for me have been around 60k (gross). Average years are 80-100k. Good years are 100 and up. The most I've ever grossed is around 180k. But I gotta factor in $2200 a month for my studio, $150 a month for internet (it's commercial and only 1 choice in providers so...no choice), $200 a month for insurance. LA is an expensive city to live in as well...it's a hustle for sure. That includes royalities as a producer / songwriter??? Ah yeah I forgt the stupid US system with no single composer clearing per song...another thing which we made good in the E.U. IMO.
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Post by 79sg on Aug 1, 2017 11:11:05 GMT -6
Group health insurance only works if the users are paying in more than they are taking out. Either directly or through their income taxes. There is no such thing as free healthcare or education, for that matter. Someone is paying! Everyone is paying. I'm talking about the bargaining power of large groups vs individuals. My wife-same age same health condition (very good)- pays 1/3 I do in premiums and has 1/4 of the deductible because she is on a group plan from the city we live in. My former peers at Xerox' premiums and deductibles are well below what I pay because I am marginalized as an studio owner with no bargaining power. I have no idea where you're coming from with your "free healthcare" statement. I pay 100% of my insurance with no subsidies. Generally speaking, when people participate in a "group plan" there are a couple of factors that create a lower premium for the employee, 1. yes, the plan is rated on a group basis vs. individual basis, 2. many (but cannot say all) employers share in the cost (pay part) of the health plan for their employees. As far as subsidies go (which I find to be a sore subject), this is something that a government uses for participants that could not afford the program on their own (which should say lots about the program to begin with). The problem is governments only have revenue from its citizens through taxation so in essence you are paying additional for those entitled to a subsidy or the government just magically prints that subsidy (money) out of thin air otherwise known as the 8th wonder of the world (sarcasm) and an entire subject in and of itself.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 1, 2017 11:42:52 GMT -6
I'm talking about the bargaining power of large groups vs individuals. My wife-same age same health condition (very good)- pays 1/3 I do in premiums and has 1/4 of the deductible because she is on a group plan from the city we live in. My former peers at Xerox' premiums and deductibles are well below what I pay because I am marginalized as an studio owner with no bargaining power. I have no idea where you're coming from with your "free healthcare" statement. I pay 100% of my insurance with no subsidies. Generally speaking, when people participate in a "group plan" there are a couple of factors that create a lower premium for the employee, 1. yes, the plan is rated on a group basis vs. individual basis, 2. many (but cannot say all) employers share in the cost (pay part) of the health plan for their employees. As far as subsidies go (which I find to be a sore subject), this is something that a government uses for participants that could not afford the program on their own (which should say lots about the program to begin with). The problem is governments only have revenue from its citizens through taxation so in essence you are paying additional for those entitled to a subsidy or the government just magically prints that subsidy (money) out of thin air otherwise known as the 8th wonder of the world (sarcasm) and an entire subject in and of itself. Group plan is easiest when all parties live in one geographical area. Trying to build a plan across state boarders isn't easy.
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Post by drbill on Aug 1, 2017 12:03:16 GMT -6
For those not living off royalties, I'd suggest looking into it. Moving away from hourly to a passive royalty based income was the best thing I've ever done. If you're selling "studio" time, everyone has a studio. If you're selling hourly engineering services, everyone is an engineer. No future in it. Creating product that others want is freedom.
PS - for the USA haters....warts and all, there's no place else I'd rather live. The best and most imitated music in the world gets made here.
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