ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,978
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Post by ericn on Feb 15, 2017 8:36:30 GMT -6
Having had the Tony Arnold re issues, 4 realios and 4 original Island Basing 3 band lustraphone modules(yes identical to the ones used on early Zep ,Stones etc)I can say for me the whole Helios thing is kinda overhyped. The pre amps alone were good,darker rounder,less detail than neves and apis. The eq was real cool for boosting mids,but in the end having spent a lot of dough on all these different variants I'm not feeling any "holy grailness" with these anymore. Also the realios were quite a bit cleaner than the vintage modules.i liked them mainly because they had a shitload of gain and more headroom than Tony's modules. Also for the record the "type 69" thing was all marketing from Tony Arnold when he re issued them. The original 3 band lustraphone modules were called 0011's,not "type 69".marketing hype hype hype. When is got my chandler Redds I did a lot of comparisons with the old Helios,my vintage 1084's and API's Honestly the old Helios were good but I was kinda "whatever" at that point.the obsession has passed. I'm honestly really happy with the Redds,Neves,capis and now the Skibbe Flickingers. I'll add the RB disclaimer for the last statement ...for now.😎
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,978
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Post by ericn on Feb 15, 2017 8:37:47 GMT -6
I've mentioned this before, but I'll say it again - "I'm not saying this is rational." There are a ton of reasons NOT to like these reissues, but well, I just do. I think it's the basic tone of the pre that I like. A little forward in the bottom and lower mids...then a variety of upper mid eq points that actually sound good when boosting or is handy to cut in something like a vocal. And the top seems more relaxed than a Neve or API...although the VP28s are a different bird. Sometimes it's not rational , it's about what gets you there the easiest.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,978
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Post by ericn on Feb 15, 2017 8:49:10 GMT -6
I keep thinking there are SO MANY much less expensive vintage options that will do the same or similar, and plenty you would like better. If I tried to sell all the 3rd rate broadcast gear with similar basic circuits they'd never move, yet probably sound about the same. Doug, You are the official " I have found my very own rabbit hole to dive into gear junkie!" I love you like the brother I have never met because of that" At one point when I realized I wanted to be a grown up freelancer, that was the road I wanted to travel. Trouble is I kept finding the new wave of studios didn't cover the basics so I had to go down the road more traveled! I think JK is trying to find his own thing, but can't go as far off track as you because he's not a tech, he's still trying to find his tone but in a far more mainstream fashion. Besides some of your gems would take up most of his room!
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 15, 2017 9:21:45 GMT -6
I keep thinking there are SO MANY much less expensive vintage options that will do the same or similar, and plenty you would like better. If I tried to sell all the 3rd rate broadcast gear with similar basic circuits they'd never move, yet probably sound about the same. So, in your opinion, the Swettenham circuit is third rate broadcast gear...
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Post by EmRR on Feb 15, 2017 9:25:19 GMT -6
My rabbit hole isn't necessarily rational either. I still think a lot of vintage stuff people aren't paying attention to would be cheaper even after paying a tech, but then it's hard to get tech done on any quick schedule and then the pieces are harder to flip. My pile started as the cheapest off-radar stuff you could get, but at this point a lot of it has appreciated to a point that it almost doesn't make sense to keep anymore. And I do all my own tech....which means stuff sits around for years before I get it really set up and usable. YMMV....
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Post by EmRR on Feb 15, 2017 9:30:21 GMT -6
I keep thinking there are SO MANY much less expensive vintage options that will do the same or similar, and plenty you would like better. If I tried to sell all the 3rd rate broadcast gear with similar basic circuits they'd never move, yet probably sound about the same. So, in your opinion, the Swettenham circuit is third rate broadcast gear... Your description of the headroom sounds like it. But no, I'm saying many things considered third rate broadcast gear probably sound really similar, with headroom in the same zone, similar tones, etc. Difference is the provenance. I had a tube Neve at my house on loan from a dealer for inspection and reverse engineering. It probably sold over $50K more than a decade ago. There are lot of similar broadcast boards that do more and do it better that you'd have been lucky to get a grand for on the same day. Almost no one's even heard the Neve, but people have heard the other stuff. Provenance....
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Post by roundbadge on Feb 15, 2017 9:32:25 GMT -6
I thought you sold your Helios' years ago? By a strange twist of fate I got two back! You wanna buy them!?
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 15, 2017 9:42:30 GMT -6
I thought you sold your Helios' years ago? By a strange twist of fate I got two back! You wanna buy them!? Not for $5000 apiece...lol
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Post by roundbadge on Feb 15, 2017 9:43:17 GMT -6
Having had the Tony Arnold re issues, 4 realios and 4 original Island Basing 3 band lustraphone modules(yes identical to the ones used on early Zep ,Stones etc)I can say for me the whole Helios thing is kinda overhyped. The pre amps alone were good,darker rounder,less detail than neves and apis. The eq was real cool for boosting mids,but in the end having spent a lot of dough on all these different variants I'm not feeling any "holy grailness" with these anymore. Also the realios were quite a bit cleaner than the vintage modules.i liked them mainly because they had a shitload of gain and more headroom than Tony's modules. Also for the record the "type 69" thing was all marketing from Tony Arnold when he re issued them. The original 3 band lustraphone modules were called 0011's,not "type 69".marketing hype hype hype. When is got my chandler Redds I did a lot of comparisons with the old Helios,my vintage 1084's and API's Honestly the old Helios were good but I was kinda "whatever" at that point.the obsession has passed. I'm honestly really happy with the Redds,Neves,capis and now the Skibbe Flickingers. You sold your original A-Range pair too right? Didn't care for those? Yes Sold the Trident A Ranges. Quirky and interesting things they are. Those eq faders are a pain in the ass. Build quality is downright flimsy compare to 70's era Neve. Overall cool units but in retrospect,NOT worth all the money I paid for them. Again in my opinion OVERHYPED by people and more "marketing". Danny White set me straight regarding all those supposed "A Range" classic records.. they were in reality,Sound Techniques "A Range"!! My vintage Neve 1084's are still pretty much the most "sounds like a record straight out the gate" of the bunch. That said the Chandler Redds are to my ears equally as cool but even more dimensional "3-D" The FD312 Heiders rule too. All said the neves,capis and Redds all get equal use. Starting to throw the Flickingers into the mix too. Also all my API 1608 mic pres have been Steiger "Capi-ized"..Litz,Red Dots etc.waay better than stock Good shit.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 15, 2017 9:51:04 GMT -6
So, in your opinion, the Swettenham circuit is third rate broadcast gear... Your description of the headroom sounds like it. But no, I'm saying many things considered third rate broadcast gear probably sound really similar, with headroom in the same zone, similar tones, etc. Difference is the provenance. I had a tube Neve at my house on loan from a dealer for inspection and reverse engineering. It probably sold over $50K more than a decade ago. There are lot of similar broadcast boards that do more and do it better that you'd have been lucky to get a grand for on the same day. Almost no one's even heard the Neve, but people have heard the other stuff. Provenance.... I think you mean "almost everyone's heard the name Neve, but no one has heard the other stuff..." right? I think that's true to a certain extent. I think the vintage market is INSANE. No way I would pay $3500 for an 1176...but I do think that gear (just like people) earn their reputation. Neve hasn't been used for 40 years just because of brand marketing - it got used because it sounded good. But someone like jsteiger is a great example that great sounding gear doesn't have to cost a fortune...and it doesn't have to be made in China. As far as vintage gear, I think there's a lot of things that attribute to the lust. One, it just sounds better than much of what's offered now. I think you could attribute that to the miniaturization of components, the restriction of certain metals that are used in transformers (they don't make metal like they used to), and the general workmanship and detail.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 15, 2017 9:53:19 GMT -6
You sold your original A-Range pair too right? Didn't care for those? Yes Sold the Trident A Ranges. Quirky and interesting things they are. Those eq faders are a pain in the ass. Overall cool units but in retrospect,NOT worth all the money I paid for them. Again in my opinion OVERHYPED by people and more "marketing". Danny White set me straight regarding all those supposed "A Range" classic records.. they were in reality,Sound Techniques "A Range"!! My vintage Neve 1084's are still pretty much the most "sounds like a record straight out the gate" of the bunch. That said the Chandler Redds are to my ears equally as cool but even more dimensional "3-D" The neves,capis and Redds all get equal use. Starting to throw the Flickingers into the mix too. Good shit. I had an A-Range reissue and agree that the eq faders are a pain. Definitely looks over function there. Happy to have moved on from it.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 15, 2017 9:53:25 GMT -6
You sold your original A-Range pair too right? Didn't care for those? Yes Sold the Trident A Ranges. Quirky and interesting things they are. Those eq faders are a pain in the ass. Overall cool units but in retrospect,NOT worth all the money I paid for them. Again in my opinion OVERHYPED by people and more "marketing". Danny White set me straight regarding all those supposed "A Range" classic records.. they were in reality,Sound Techniques "A Range"!! My vintage Neve 1084's are still pretty much the most "sounds like a record straight out the gate" of the bunch. That said the Chandler Redds are to my ears equally as cool but even more dimensional "3-D" The neves,capis and Redds all get equal use. Starting to throw the Flickingers into the mix too. Good shit. When you're talking about Flickingers, you're talking Skibbe, right? How would you describe those pres? I always thought the Motown boards weren't the most beloved, just the most cost effective for the time. Bob Olhsson
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 15, 2017 9:54:18 GMT -6
Yes Sold the Trident A Ranges. Quirky and interesting things they are. Those eq faders are a pain in the ass. Overall cool units but in retrospect,NOT worth all the money I paid for them. Again in my opinion OVERHYPED by people and more "marketing". Danny White set me straight regarding all those supposed "A Range" classic records.. they were in reality,Sound Techniques "A Range"!! My vintage Neve 1084's are still pretty much the most "sounds like a record straight out the gate" of the bunch. That said the Chandler Redds are to my ears equally as cool but even more dimensional "3-D" The neves,capis and Redds all get equal use. Starting to throw the Flickingers into the mix too. Good shit. I had an A-Range reissue and agree that the eq faders are a pain. Definitely looks over function there. Happy to have moved on from it. I know the plugin isn't the HW, but even using the plugin it was kinda like..."meh"
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Post by Ward on Feb 15, 2017 11:03:19 GMT -6
Swettenham and Flickinger? Go for the gold. Vintage Gold Rush Al Sweringen. OK, very few will get that joke. Johnkenn, my man, I wouldn't listen to any detractors. I know what a Helios can do since you introduced me to your old one. And my jaw was hanging open. There is definitely a tone there. And I don't know how I managed to miss out on that for so many years. One of the things I love about this place and you lot is that I am constantly learning. And my hunger for knowledge increases with every visit.
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Post by roundbadge on Feb 15, 2017 12:17:16 GMT -6
Yes Sold the Trident A Ranges. Quirky and interesting things they are. Those eq faders are a pain in the ass. Overall cool units but in retrospect,NOT worth all the money I paid for them. Again in my opinion OVERHYPED by people and more "marketing". Danny White set me straight regarding all those supposed "A Range" classic records.. they were in reality,Sound Techniques "A Range"!! My vintage Neve 1084's are still pretty much the most "sounds like a record straight out the gate" of the bunch. That said the Chandler Redds are to my ears equally as cool but even more dimensional "3-D" The neves,capis and Redds all get equal use. Starting to throw the Flickingers into the mix too. Good shit. When you're talking about Flickingers, you're talking Skibbe, right? How would you describe those pres? I always thought the Motown boards weren't the most beloved, just the most cost effective for the time. Bob OlhssonYeah Skibbe cool mid representation but still great fidelity overall.open but balanced/smooth high end. Kinda Sorta API like but still unique. That was the thing with the old Helios ..real unique punchy mid representation..not super open high end or big bloom in the lows.imo it was the combo of the eq that made them interesting. By contrast the A Ranges had a lot of extension up top.very Hi Fi.super broad eq. To my knowledge Bill Skibbe really got the amp cards and opamps close to the original Flickinger design. I really like them.
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Post by roundbadge on Feb 15, 2017 12:25:35 GMT -6
Yeah I don't know what the Motown Flickinger deal was but If you want a great modern example of what a Flickinger console sounds like listen to Mark Linkous self produced Sparklehorse record "Dreamt for Light Years in the Belly of a Mountain" Really cool record .
minus whatever tape machine he used,the Skibbe modules are sonically right there.
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Post by EmRR on Feb 15, 2017 13:10:09 GMT -6
I wonder where Mark's Flickinger went. I tried doing some EQ module work on it for him remotely, not the easiest thing to sort out.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Feb 15, 2017 14:07:00 GMT -6
When you're talking about Flickingers, you're talking Skibbe, right? How would you describe those pres? I always thought the Motown boards weren't the most beloved, just the most cost effective for the time. Bob Olhsson Our original boards were home made from Altec tube preamps and from copies of Spectrasonics for the mix room. We acquired a label and studio around 1967 with a console built from Altec solid state preamps that employed Neumann passive equalizers. It was our first console with eq. although only 14 channels. The mix room consoles were replaced with Electrodynes around 1969 that had the first fader grouping system I've ever seen. The shop tested a number of console channel strips and Electrodyne won. Those of us who used Electrodyne, Quad-Eight and API were never impressed by Neves. MCI and SSL were both steps further down in that order.
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Post by nobtwiddler on Feb 15, 2017 17:59:22 GMT -6
After you've been in this biz of making records for a while, you realize, none of this shit matters, really. Com'on. Get a few pieces that work for you, (no matter what brand they are) and make some music.
I mean think about it.
There have been AMAZING records made, sonically and emotionally using every different brand of Console, Pre-Amp, EQ, Compressor, or whatever thru the years Think about it...
Altec, Universal Audio, MCI, EMI, Sound Techniques, Trident, Helios, SSL, Neve, API, Flickenger, Sphere, Electrodyne, Quad Eight, Spectra-sonics... And many, many, more... (even stuff like Mackie!)
I'm sure you can find a sonically superior record using just about every piece of gear ever made. In the right hands, just about anything will work. Yes even a Mackie!
I know this site is all about gear, which is cool. I love gear, but at some point you wake up, and come to the understanding, at a certain level, it just doesn't matter any more it's just a different flavor and nothing more then that.
Like I said, pick what sounds good to you, and use it. Cause in reality, none of this shit matters, all you need to is know is your gear, and what it's capable of. It's really what's at the other end that is important...No pre-amp, console, Eq, or compressor is gonna change that!
Now, back to your regularly scheduled broadcast.
I need a beer!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2017 19:30:00 GMT -6
I owned an original Lustraphone unit and sold it on to VK about 10 years ago for alot of money at the time. I then bought a pair of new modules directly from Tony Arnold and blew the rest on who knows... I really love the Helios - the pres and especially the equalizer. I own and use daily an early 70's neve sidecar but the Helios modules to me have something unique from the neve, altec, and old api's which i have here. To answer one of the above questions the Sparklehorse Flickinger is at last time i heard : www.montroserecording.comI'm unplugging from the net for a few months of recordings - have fun with the helios etc people...
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Feb 15, 2017 20:18:01 GMT -6
I've heard horror stories about the Sound Techniques at Sunset Sound and Trident from people who were there.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 15, 2017 21:42:40 GMT -6
After you've been in this biz of making records for a while, you realize, none of this shit matters, really. Com'on. Get a few pieces that work for you, (no matter what brand they are) and make some music. I mean think about it. There have been AMAZING records made, sonically and emotionally using every different brand of Console, Pre-Amp, EQ, Compressor, or whatever thru the years Think about it... Altec, Universal Audio, MCI, EMI, Sound Techniques, Trident, Helios, SSL, Neve, API, Flickenger, Sphere, Electrodyne, Quad Eight, Spectra-sonics... And many, many, more... (even stuff like Mackie!) I'm sure you can find a sonically superior record using just about every piece of gear ever made. In the right hands, just about anything will work. Yes even a Mackie! I know this site is all about gear, which is cool. I love gear, but at some point you wake up, and come to the understanding, at a certain level, it just doesn't matter any more it's just a different flavor and nothing more then that. Like I said, pick what sounds good to you, and use it. Cause in reality, none of this shit matters, all you need to is know is your gear, and what it's capable of. It's really what's at the other end that is important...No pre-amp, console, Eq, or compressor is gonna change that! Now, back to your regularly scheduled broadcast. I need a beer! Totally agree. But this is also my hobby. Some guys have cars. Some have prostitues. Some have boats. Some have cocaine. I have pro audio gear.
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Post by stratboy on Feb 15, 2017 21:52:17 GMT -6
To answer one of the above questions the Sparklehorse Flickinger is at last time i heard : www.montroserecording.comI can confirm that. It is owned by a friend of a friend (I used to live in Richmond). I'm told the owners had to do an extensive restoration, but they had the chops to do it and it sounds great (although I'm also told small things often go south on it...)
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Post by EmRR on Feb 15, 2017 21:58:20 GMT -6
Mark's #1 problem was the dirty EQ pots, scratchy enough to throw your woofer cones across the room. I wonder how they dealt with it. I investigated ultrasonic bath a little bit, but never got a clear answer on methodology regarding re-lube of the pots afterwards. Three 4-deck dual concentric custom value mod pots per EQ, in a time when you couldn't get replacements.
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Post by donr on Feb 15, 2017 22:19:44 GMT -6
Mark's #1 problem was the dirty EQ pots, scratchy enough to throw your woofer cones across the room. I wonder how they dealt with it. I investigated ultrasonic bath a little bit, but never got a clear answer on methodology regarding re-lube of the pots afterwards. Three 4-deck dual concentric custom value mod pots per EQ, in a time when you couldn't get replacements. Couple things OT. First, is there any cure for scratchy sealed pots beside replacing them? Second, the board has been really interesting the last week+ or so. Thanks everybody. Great crew here.
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