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Post by svart on Jan 11, 2017 11:55:41 GMT -6
So yeah, I need something to drive my studio's appeal to the local market, something that others don't have.
I'm thinking a 24 track tape machine..
Seems there are a few options out there, Otari MTR90/MX80 or Ampex mm1200 seem within reach if I spend wisely.
Anyone have any ideas, opinions, or know someone who's selling?
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Post by drbill on Jan 11, 2017 12:07:38 GMT -6
Are you sure that your clients want a tape machine? IME it's usually the engineer over the talent / client. When I sold my JH24, no one ever asked for it again - except in passing - "where's that big thing?", or when they wanted to transfer an old recording off to pro tools.
Best studio purchases / upgrades : new lounge / kitchenette, big screen TV, gaming system, cappuccino machine, new in ear monitoring, etc. i.e.: client amenities. Tape machines? Who cares? I personally don't. I don't think many others do either. Just my personal opinions....
Back when I sold "time" in the studio, I learned quickly - ONLY buy things that several clients specifically ASK for. Trying to buy things to bring in more clients is a fools game or a game for trust fund studios. Working class studios buy based on client need.
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Post by drbill on Jan 11, 2017 12:12:37 GMT -6
PS - the one place I would actually want a tape machine in 2017 would be on constant loop for tape based delay. I think that's the one cool thing I miss the most about tape.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 11, 2017 12:21:20 GMT -6
In Atl,Tree Sound Studios/ Zac/ Patchwerk / Doppler/ Darp ( forget new name ) all have tape machines but rarely are they ever in use.. maybe contact them.... All of these studios are known staples, top of the top gear and maintenance ..Not sure where you are local too, so shipping may be an added cost too.
Is the demand going to equal a greater return than expense? How many bands/ acts are looking for a tape base workflow nowadays?
Are most bands adapted to the daw workflow editing and overdub to no end? Instead of get it right live as a band playing together.. I know there is plenty ways to edit tape/ punch in/ overdub..
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Post by svart on Jan 11, 2017 12:38:21 GMT -6
In Atl,Tree Sound Studios/ Zac/ Patchwerk / Doppler/ Darp ( forget new name ) all have tape machines but rarely are they ever in use.. maybe contact them.... All of these studios are known staples, top of the top gear and maintenance ..Not sure where you are local too, so shipping may be an added cost too. Is the demand going to equal a greater return than expense? How many bands/ acts are looking for a tape base workflow nowadays? Are most bands adapted to the daw workflow editing and overdub to no end? Instead of get it right live as a band playing together.. I know there is plenty ways to edit tape/ punch in/ overdub.. You know a couple of those have shut down, right? The rest are on life-support.. To answer yours and drbill question, I've had a number of bands talk about "really wanting tape sound", but not being able to afford going to a larger studio. Also, it's worth mentioning that it's one thing to talk about *recording* as some kind of demand/supply thing, but the truth on the ground is that studios are scratching for work and competing with each other, rather than supplying a service to throngs of waiting bands.. The bands have to be enticed to come to your studio these days. Responses like "Oh yeah your work sounds great, but I can pay a third your rate and get 90% of the sound from this other studio" abound. The other common reply is "why would I pay you, when I can buy my own gear at GC and do it myself?" The point is that recording has become commodity these days and you have to offer something *more* than just a good mix and decent rate, you have to offer something that they aren't going to get anywhere else. |
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Post by EmRR on Jan 11, 2017 13:16:55 GMT -6
I've never seen clients who would tolerate tape costs or the necessary shift in operating procedure. Those who've 'complained' about my lack of tape never went anywhere else that had it, was just talk.
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Post by drbill on Jan 11, 2017 13:29:54 GMT -6
Some common realities that have always been in effect :
- people come to studios not for gear, but for the people who RUN the gear.
- tape machines are maintenance hogs, and money pits.
- studios who buy gear constantly in an attempt to lure people in seldom succeed
- studios who buy gear because EXISTING clients who pay up front or on time demand it have a fighting chance of succeeding
- being in the "studio business" (kind of an oxymoron) is bad business
Some common realities of 2017
- Capitol has lots of tape machines - they sit covered in the hallway, not even in the CRM. Most studios do not run tape. There is a reason....
- people don't want to pay for anything these days - and TAPE is expensive. So is running the machines
- the studio "business" is worse than ever. More and more and more, the reason for drawing people in becomes the talent behind the controls because as you stated - they can do the same thing with a couple $k in gear from GC
- everything you stated above is true, and SCREAMS don't spend more $$$ to get people in. You MUST find a better way than "gear" if you want to succeed. Client amenities always pay off.
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Post by noah shain on Jan 11, 2017 13:33:23 GMT -6
I'd add that working on tape is a whole skill set you will have to develop. You should try it at a studio that's set up for it, see if you like the workflow and the results and then add in to your equation the added costs, time and maintainance before you make a decision. It WILL eat in to your budgets. It WILL require maintainance. It IS a big pain in the ass. You should make sure you're in to it first. I use tape machines at my private studio and I do it because I like it. I like how it sounds and I dig the process. I'm also kinda chasing a romantic notion and sound so it fits me. I would NEVER look at it as a profit source if I wasn't so in love with the process and sound. My tape machines have become part of why you would work with me. That said, many clients aren't interested in the sound, expense or process. On those projects the machines don't get used. I don't think anybody comes to me for my machines...most people don't know or care. People come to me because I can get them a sound and an experience that feels unique and special to them and me. THAT has value to me. It doesn't equal $$ directly but it equals joy and good results. IMO you shouldn't do it unless you're excited by it and want to learn about it...unless you HAVE to do it. It's a lot of headache otherwise. EDIT: What drbill said ☝🏽 |
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Post by svart on Jan 11, 2017 14:14:30 GMT -6
Some common realities that have always been in effect : - people come to studios not for gear, but for the people who RUN the gear. - tape machines are maintenance hogs, and money pits. - studios who buy gear constantly in an attempt to lure people in seldom succeed - studios who buy gear because EXISTING clients who pay up front or on time demand it have a fighting chance of succeeding - being in the "studio business" (kind of an oxymoron) is bad business Some common realities of 2017 - Capitol has lots of tape machines - they sit covered in the hallway, not even in the CRM. Most studios do not run tape. There is a reason.... - people don't want to pay for anything these days - and TAPE is expensive. So is running the machines - the studio "business" is worse than ever. More and more and more, the reason for drawing people in becomes the talent behind the controls because as you stated - they can do the same thing with a couple $k in gear from GC- everything you stated above is true, and SCREAMS don't spend more $$$ to get people in. You MUST find a better way than "gear" if you want to succeed. Client amenities always pay off. You'd think it should be about talent, but one thing I've noticed over the years is that people just don't make the connection between knowing what you're doing and making it look easy, and it actually being easy. So lots of bands/artists are starting to go off and DIY their records because an experienced recordist made it look easy, therefor it must be easy. The band goes into the studio, sound dude twiddles some knobs, clicks his mouse a few times and all of a sudden a good sounding record pops out the other end. As far as the band sees, that's all it takes to make a good sounding record these days. The rest is the marketing on the new interfaces at GC and the sales dude talking the interface up to make a sale, and the band's desire to "invest in themselves". I understand what you're saying in general, but it seems to roughly translates to "Don't bother trying if people aren't already coming". I'm also NOT competing with Capitol, nor am I trying to court the folks who can afford to go to Capitol. I'm competing with the Joes in their garages with their MACs and Apollos who undercut the mid level studios by offering 75% quality but with rock-bottom prices. Those studios are everywhere around here while the big studios are dinosaurs roaring their last roars. These days you need a gimmick to draw someone's attention away from the GC catalog and onto your webpage. Otherwise they won't even take the time to listen to your work to see if it's good or not. |
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Post by drbill on Jan 11, 2017 14:22:10 GMT -6
Some common realities that have always been in effect : - people come to studios not for gear, but for the people who RUN the gear. - tape machines are maintenance hogs, and money pits. - studios who buy gear constantly in an attempt to lure people in seldom succeed - studios who buy gear because EXISTING clients who pay up front or on time demand it have a fighting chance of succeeding - being in the "studio business" (kind of an oxymoron) is bad business Some common realities of 2017 - Capitol has lots of tape machines - they sit covered in the hallway, not even in the CRM. Most studios do not run tape. There is a reason.... - people don't want to pay for anything these days - and TAPE is expensive. So is running the machines - the studio "business" is worse than ever. More and more and more, the reason for drawing people in becomes the talent behind the controls because as you stated - they can do the same thing with a couple $k in gear from GC- everything you stated above is true, and SCREAMS don't spend more $$$ to get people in. You MUST find a better way than "gear" if you want to succeed. Client amenities always pay off. You'd think it should be about talent, but one thing I've noticed over the years is that people just don't make the connection between knowing what you're doing and making it look easy, and it actually being easy. So lots of bands/artists are starting to go off and DIY their records because an experienced recordist made it look easy, therefor it must be easy. The band goes into the studio, sound dude twiddles some knobs, clicks his mouse a few times and all of a sudden a good sounding record pops out the other end. As far as the band sees, that's all it takes to make a good sounding record these days. I understand what you're saying in general, but it seems to roughly translates to "Don't bother trying if people aren't already coming". I'm also NOT competing with Capitol, nor am I trying to court the folks who can afford to go to Capitol. I'm competing with the Joes in their garages with their MACs and Apollos who undercut the mid level studios by offering 75% quality but with rock-bottom prices. Those studios are everywhere around here while the big studios are dinosaurs roaring their last roars. These days you need a gimmick to draw someone's attention away from the GC catalog and onto your webpage. Otherwise they won't even take the time to listen to your work to see if it's good or not. Gimmicks are not what you need. Skill, perseverance, connections and credits are all anyone need to make it in this biz. All other avenues are wild goose chases. Find what will improve those things and you will have success. Trying to add gear to make it work is a fools game. (been there, done that, not going back) PS - there is a flaw in your logic I believe. The people who think they can go into GC and buy a "studio" and do it themselves have no experience. Experienced musicians understand what it takes to make a record. They have probably already tried DIY, and are looking elsewhere. Those wanting to go to GC will not survive with tape. They will become frustrated, upset, and give up on the project or go to a DAW where they can edit. Tape is best suited for musicians who are experienced who can play. $.02 |
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Post by svart on Jan 11, 2017 14:23:57 GMT -6
So going back to the actual topic, what tape machines do you like, and what do you think about them?
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Post by drbill on Jan 11, 2017 14:29:41 GMT -6
Ampex, MCI, 3M, Stephens.
OR
Tascam, Foxtex, Otari!!!
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Post by tasteliketape on Jan 11, 2017 14:30:24 GMT -6
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Post by drbill on Jan 11, 2017 14:43:17 GMT -6
IMO their prices are EXTREMELY reasonable based on what you get. I'd love to know what their "warranty" consists of. Didn't see that on their site. Short of being in Nashville, I'd want to know day rates and if they will fly out for repairs. IME, MCI machines are VERY bizarre machines. Not just any tech can pop the hood and fix em. The good news is that the channel electronics are very modular so you can send em in, and rotate em around. If I bought an MCI I'd have 1-2 complete sets of channel electronics on hand.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 11, 2017 14:54:55 GMT -6
You'd think it should be about talent, but one thing I've noticed over the years is that people just don't make the connection between knowing what you're doing and making it look easy, and it actually being easy. Well, if they made the connection their ego's would have to take the bruise of accepting they aren't the geniuses they think they are. |
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Post by svart on Jan 11, 2017 15:03:58 GMT -6
You'd think it should be about talent, but one thing I've noticed over the years is that people just don't make the connection between knowing what you're doing and making it look easy, and it actually being easy. Well, if they made the connection their ego's would have to take the bruise of accepting they aren't the geniuses they think they are. Some are clearly this way, while others are more of a "nobody else will give it the love it deserves" mindset.. Which I guess comes from ego in that they think their work can't be touched by mortals for fear of soiling it.. This is a new thing which clearly came up with the millennial-hipster mentality. I see it a lot now. It's crazy the whole "us vs. them" kind of belief they have these days, and it takes something really really attractive for these folks to overlook that belief. Maybe it's simply because I've been doing a ton of indie rock stuff and it's mostly hipsters who reject established ways of doing things? |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 11, 2017 15:11:16 GMT -6
My vote is for slick website update over tape machine.
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Post by noah shain on Jan 11, 2017 15:11:18 GMT -6
svart AMPEX man!!! Start with an ag440b 2 track as a mix down deck. It's a Stone Age simple transport. All Springs and pulleys and levers. It's the sound of decades of recorded music. They run stereo/4 track/8 track (different machines...not all on 1 machine). Reasonable prices. Check Audio Village on eBay. KILLER sound. Same electronics as MM1000, MM1200 and actually some MCI machines. Get your feet wet with that!!! I just did a record at Welcome to 1979 (studio owned by Chris Mara of Marachines) and it sounds great. Chris is super nice. The lead tech at maramachines was my assistant. GREAT bunch of people. Happy to introduce you if you want.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 11, 2017 15:31:04 GMT -6
I have had the itch for a 2in come and go, anytime I look I ask about the head report and other than decks where they are asking big money they act like I am speaking a different language!
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Post by EmRR on Jan 11, 2017 15:32:56 GMT -6
Well, if they made the connection their ego's would have to take the bruise of accepting they aren't the geniuses they think they are. Some are clearly this way, while others are more of a "nobody else will give it the love it deserves" mindset.. Which I guess comes from ego in that they think their work can't be touched by mortals for fear of soiling it.. This is a new thing which clearly came up with the millennial-hipster mentality. I see it a lot now. It's crazy the whole "us vs. them" kind of belief they have these days, and it takes something really really attractive for these folks to overlook that belief. Nothing new under the sun. All the 1994 punk rock kids were the same way. The 2003 beard rock '1st wave' were also. |
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Post by EmRR on Jan 11, 2017 15:34:23 GMT -6
Nice Studer A807 1/4" machine available here....
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 11, 2017 15:58:19 GMT -6
I hear a lot of that around here, too. Hipsters talk of tape like they're purists or something. Right, like they've ever used tape before. They read things on the internet, then regurgitate it back. For a split second, I thought about a tape machine. But no way, man. Those hipster elitists can find somewhere else and pay the bucks.
I do have an old Fostex 8 track sitting around for decoration, though. "I'm like, analog, man."
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Post by gouge on Jan 11, 2017 17:12:29 GMT -6
personally I wouldn't get anything less than 16 tracks. 16 track mara is on my dream list.
2 track are limited in use. the idea is to be able to record through the deck to your daw. to be able to do a full band 16 channels is good.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 11, 2017 17:43:44 GMT -6
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Post by noah shain on Jan 11, 2017 18:33:56 GMT -6
personally I wouldn't get anything less than 16 tracks. 16 track mara is on my dream list. 2 track are limited in use. the idea is to be able to record through the deck to your daw. to be able to do a full band 16 channels is good. For the most part I agree with you but I wouldn't disregard the massive affect mixing to a 440 will have on your audio and your process. Maybe not so much with a nice ATR or Studer but a 440...massive. Also a good way to get a feel for using tape with minimal financial commitment. |
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