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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2017 4:52:48 GMT -6
I decided to take a punt on the 3U Warbler 127 Cardioid Flat, I also ordered the Omni Flat capsule to go with it. Looking forward to it! Will be my first "proper" Omni. Ordered on the 1st, shipped on the 2nd, and arrived just now, three days later, all the way from China to France, with free tracked shipping. Crazy good service! Now to test them out...
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 5, 2017 21:29:18 GMT -6
Thanks for posting the demos, and info on which was which, matt@IAA. This is a bummer. I thought for sure I was preferring the 3U mics because B-strum and A-fingers felt more alive to me and I was expecting that to be because of a more scooped sounding modern mic. The 3U examples felt flat to my ears. I felt the same, was sure B-strum would be the 3U as it sounded clearer in the mids and highs, due to what I thought would be the "modern voicing", but I guess the KM84 is just a really nice mic. Maybe I'll save up for one. What are they, about $1k used these days? On sale for $1700 at Vintage King
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2017 2:08:51 GMT -6
Yeah, I had a look there yesterday, they had one KM84i for $1750 which is just crazy, IMO. Gonna be testing out the Warbler 127-C-F over the next few days. On the blind A/B posted here recently, I preferred the KM84 to the 127 on both strummed and finger picked acoustic, but not $1500 more...
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Post by matt@IAA on Dec 6, 2017 8:46:45 GMT -6
Yeah, I had a look there yesterday, they had one KM84i for $1750 which is just crazy, IMO. Gonna be testing out the Warbler 127-C-F over the next few days. On the blind A/B posted here recently, I preferred the KM84 to the 127 on both strummed and finger picked acoustic, but not $1500 more...Truer words... Post your tests!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2017 9:48:49 GMT -6
Yeah, I was all set to go, then realised I had forgotten my daughter was off school today, then the dog got sick, so I had to make a vet's appointment, which is for tomorrow, so time has somehow disappeared... Haha. I will try and get something up before the weekend though! I asked Guosheng whether I should use the 300 or 1200 ohm setting on the TG2 pre and he said the 1200 should be better and have more gain, so I'm gonna start with that, maybe double track an acoustic strummed part, only difference being cardioid flat or omni flat capsules. I guess for an electric demo I could Reamp a DI part through the Deluxe Reverb, so the performances would be exactly the same. Doing all this by myself a nightmare, as I can't scan the best places to put the mic with cans, while I am playing, so am really looking forward to my dad coming over for Xmas (much better player than me), to get scanning with different mics while he plays, to arrive at the best mic positions. For now will start with classic position of mic at 12th fret angled 45 degrees toward the bridge, about 50cm back.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2017 4:11:18 GMT -6
Forgive crappy playing. Some strummed acoustic. Will try and do some fingerpicked later. Warbler 127 Cardioid Flat: hermetechmastering.com/Warbler127-C-F.flacWarbler 127 Omni Flat: hermetechmastering.com/Warbler127-O-F.flacI was pretty stunned how different they sound, no other variables apart from the capsules and performance. I LOVE how the C-F sounds, sits lovely, but the O-F would need a load of EQ work to sound good, way too much low end, I think. Mic (no pad, no HPF), 50cm from 12th fret angled towards bridge, straight to TG2 pre (1200 ohm, 45dB gain), to Crookwood converters, 24/96 FLAC files.
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 7, 2017 5:49:32 GMT -6
Is the challenge with the O-F it or the room sound it is hearing: theoretically it would be flatter: right ? ?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2017 5:58:38 GMT -6
I know, it's weirding me out, why does the omni sound so bad? And so different from the cardioid? No other variables. In the "noise" between takes you can definitely hear WAY more room sound in the omni. But why is it so bassy, when the cardioid has so little? Etc. etc... Anyway, did some more recoding, am very, very happy with how that C-F is sounding on my acoustic. It'll need very little doing to it in any mix situation, which is what I've always been looking for, great recorded tone at the mic itself. Guosheng said the mic would lose sensitivity if I switched the TG2 to 300 ohm impednace, but actually here the mic is about 5dB louder than at 1200 ohm. So I am still confused.
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 7, 2017 6:46:57 GMT -6
Any possibility they have mixed up capsules ?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2017 6:56:23 GMT -6
I doubt it, can hear way more room sound with the omni, so am presuming that one is OK, but not sure on the cardioid. Does it sound "wrong" to you then?
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Post by stormymondays on Dec 7, 2017 7:49:42 GMT -6
That Omni sample is weird, that's for sure. The Omni should have more bass extension but no proximity effect, and that sounds to me like heavy proximity effect. Mine is arriving either today or Monday, but I only ordered the flat Cardioid capsule.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2017 10:09:39 GMT -6
Cheers, I think it's a bit weird too, definitely sounds like proximity effect, and yet Omni's aren't supposed to have any, and even if they did, at 50cm back it should be pretty negligible. I'll do some more tests and maybe query it with Guosheng.
Also confused about the 300 and 1200 ohm thing on the pre. I've had the TG2 about eight years now. I always assumed for the mic input impedance switch, that OUT was 1200 ohm, and IN was 300 ohm, but all my recent mic testing has shown greater level with the switch in the IN position, and I've been told the mics will be MORE sensitive at 1200 than 300. Is there a way to test the impedance with a DMM on the the input lugs of the pre, etc? Will maybe contact Chandler and ask...
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Post by stormymondays on Dec 7, 2017 12:36:22 GMT -6
There's greater level with lower input impedance. Not at the mic but at the input transformer. Probably 6dB more?
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Post by indiehouse on Dec 7, 2017 13:07:20 GMT -6
Forgive crappy playing. Some strummed acoustic. Will try and do some fingerpicked later. Warbler 127 Cardioid Flat: hermetechmastering.com/Warbler127-C-F.flacWarbler 127 Omni Flat: hermetechmastering.com/Warbler127-O-F.flacI was pretty stunned how different they sound, no other variables apart from the capsules and performance. I LOVE how the C-F sounds, sits lovely, but the O-F would need a load of EQ work to sound good, way too much low end, I think. Mic (no pad, no HPF), 50cm from 12th fret angled towards bridge, straight to TG2 pre (1200 ohm, 45dB gain), to Crookwood converters, 24/96 FLAC files. That Omni sounds wrong. Somethings not right with it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2017 14:16:27 GMT -6
Cheers for all the feedback, I'm gonna have another go with the Omni capsule tomorrow and if it's still sounding weird, I will send sound files to Guosheng.
So that's normal to have more gain with lower pre/transformer input impedance, good to know. I heard back from Chandler and indeed, 1200 is out, 300 is in, so that does all seem to add up. Guosheng told me 1200 ohm would be better for the 127, "If you use 300 ohms, the mic will work with lower sensitivity" though, which is still confusing me, cos with 300 ohm it's louder (about 5dB as stated above).
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Post by jampa on Dec 7, 2017 16:26:27 GMT -6
A high input impedance would be impedance bridging and would minimise voltage loss compared to a low impedance input
It's possible the amp compensates or something else is going on
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2017 5:02:41 GMT -6
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Post by jampa on Dec 9, 2017 1:07:41 GMT -6
That omni doesn't sound like ragan's samples
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2017 5:36:20 GMT -6
Did more tests on the 127 with the Omni Flat capsule, sounds a bit better very close up, than at 50cm distance, still more bassy than the cardioid flat though, but perhaps top be expected. Guosheng seems to think it's normal and it's just picking up the room a lot more, which for these tests is admittedly an untreated lounge. I've been engaging the HPF on the mic, and the Rycote INV7 lyre mount arrived this morning, which has also helped to tighten things up a bit. It's better than before, but I dunno, maybe the Omni is just not for me. Extremely happy with the sound of the Cardioid Flat though, so great for this specific application (acoustic guitar).
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Post by stormymondays on Dec 12, 2017 7:46:40 GMT -6
I got my Warbler 127 with Cardioid Flat capsule today. I've been doing some tests on acoustic guitar, and it sounds quite nice. I don't have my Joly-modded Oktavas at the studio till late next week, so I can't do a comparison, except against previously recorded tracks. I can hear the Warbler is very flat indeed, and it has some of the firmness that I associate with the KM84. I don't hear any hints of phaseyness, with the Oktava can have, depending on the position. However, there's something in the midrange that bothers me a bit. Maybe I'm not used to mics that are as flat!
I hope to shoot it out with the Oktava sometime this month, in the context of a track, and see what happens. However, something tells me that there's only one mic that does the KM84 thing...
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Post by spilota on Jan 1, 2018 14:14:55 GMT -6
Happy New Year everyone! I’ve been following this thread because I’m interested in the Warbler 127. I know it’s the Holidays, but I’m definitely looking forward to hearing some more comparison samples alongside the other mics being discussed! The main reason I’m writing (and what got me to sign up for the forum in the first place) is regarding the Omni capsule. I’m not an expert on these things, but could the sonic difference we are hearing in the frequency response of this capsule be due to a vented design? I’m asking simply because every other small diaphragm Omni capsule that I have seen closes/removes the vent. Please correct me if I am wrong, but on the provided photos of the Omni capsule in question, there are clearly vents. Am I missing something? As a common observer of these things it seems like a design flaw that should have been addressed from the beginning... If I am correct; which, I am quite fine with being totally off. Please, someone who is more knowledgeable than I am, take it away from here.
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Post by spilota on Jan 3, 2018 13:57:34 GMT -6
Hopefully this thread isn’t dead!
And I hope someone can answer my question in the previous post, but...
It would be AMAZING if anyone who owns the Cardiod Flat Warbler 127 could do a shootout with some other mics for reference. I would specifically love to hear them alongside a C414 or SM81 since those are commonly known entities, but beggars can’t be choosers.
Anyone?
I will be forever grateful!
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Post by matt@IAA on Jan 3, 2018 15:09:57 GMT -6
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Post by spilota on Jan 3, 2018 15:39:57 GMT -6
That would be great, and thanks! I’ll check those out as soon as I get home.
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Post by spilota on Jan 4, 2018 8:59:51 GMT -6
Just saw that you added the acoustic comparison with the KM84, thanks. I look forward to hearing that one back at the house!
Does anyone else have, or would anyone be willing to do another comparison/shootout with a KM84/SM81/C414? Overheads, acoustic guitar, strings, etc.?
I’m really interested in hearing more from these mics and any help is greatly appreciated!
I emailed Guosheng and it sounds like he will try to put an upgraded matched pair together at the end of the month (AMI T8 transformer, shock mounts, matched Cardiod and Omni caps, mic clips, wooden box).
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