ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,958
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Post by ericn on Nov 29, 2017 19:04:39 GMT -6
I started on KM84s and always loved them. Then we closed our shop and joined up with a bigger studio that has KM184s and I started using them when I needed a matched pair. I can make 'em work on lots of stuff. Then, another place I track got a pair of the Lulu Fets. Have not used them a ton yet, but great first impressions. I see Beesneez has a tube version now— would love to try it. Now this Soyuz is highly recommended, and the 3u's seem very intriguing. Man, I don't really need more SDCs, but I'm tempted anyway! Yeah, you can usually make 184s work, they're not THAT bad, but they're not great. The usual joke is that a 184 is just like an 84 but without all the things that make 84s special. It's not the capsule. Capsule's the same. I can usually make Oktava 012s work, too. I'm very intrigued by the Soyuz SDCs, and am waiting to find out what any of my "reference ears" have to say about them compared to the 84. There's a thread running over at Terry Manning's place concerned with SDCs and I made a point of asking - have not seen an answer yet. I agree with everything but the 184 is not the same Capsule as the 84, you can still get 84 Capsules but they are not 184 Capsules!
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 29, 2017 19:11:11 GMT -6
Well you should definitely make sure your rigid dogma stays intact and prevents you from trying nice, new mics from solid new designers whenever someone on the internet includes the numbers 1, 8 and 4 in a random post. And I'm a self-admitted mic snob. I have drawers FULL of mics that "do the job" but which are not stellar. I'm looking for stellar. Is this one not stellar enough for you? www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CMC64Set43 years AE around the globe tell the story its the best SDC you can buy. IMO they are right. To me its the must have SDC ... if you can afford it. It gives the most detailed picture I ever heard over the whole range. If its not enough for you? In this case I assure you - the problem is not the microphone!!!!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 29, 2017 20:37:54 GMT -6
Funny story about the Schoeps, an audio engineer friend of mine was sent by his boss to Lincoln Center to record the NY Philharmonic. He was given a pair of Schoeps mics to use. He also had a pair of ultra cheap Chinese SDC's by Guage USA, which were an economy attempt at sounding like the KM84. He recorded with all four mics for fun. His boss and the conductor both preferred the Guage recording! So every once in a while, bad is good. Those guys clearly were using their ears and not their eyes to choose.
I was watching a Warren Huart "Produce like a Pro" live video last night. He had a mint vintage U47 and a $269 Lewitt mic for a vocalist to try. They were really tracking the song, it wasn't a shootout or a demo. Everyone there, the vocalist, Huart and the engineers preferred the Lewitt, as did the youtube audience. I'm certainly not saying that it's better than a U47, in fact, I haven't found a mic under $3,500 that truly competes with a real U47 yet, but damn, once in a while you find a gem in the bargain bin, y'know?
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Post by matt@IAA on Nov 29, 2017 21:55:16 GMT -6
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Post by donr on Nov 29, 2017 22:51:55 GMT -6
If 'phase flip' is phase cancellation between the two, I'm surpised there's that much music between them with one out of phase.
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Post by hadaja on Nov 29, 2017 23:58:26 GMT -6
For just on AUS $360 i took the plunge and ordered a 127 c flat. Having owned a km84 and a soyuz 013 i think i may be in a good position to comment when it arrives. BTW i did not find the soyuz su-013 sounded the same as the km84. It does maintain quite a reasonable off axis tone to on axis. I found surprisingly that my Miktek C5 straight on the source sounded closer to my km84 then the soyuz su-013. But the Miktek does not have as good as an off axis sound. Both the su-013 and the C5 were a tad brighter them the km84. Lets see how the 3U 127 c goes when it arrives.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 30, 2017 0:04:36 GMT -6
I never thought the Soyuz 0-13 sounded like the KM84, I think it was similar, but better. In any situation I'd use the KM84, I'd certainly want to check the 0-13 out too, and pick the mic better suited to the situation. It also depends on the particular 84. I had two, and they sounded a little different, although they were a pair. The Soyuz was much clearer and had much more gain, so highs would naturally seem more prominent. I found the 84's were thinner sounding than the 0-13.
Not saying you're wrong though, old mics like a KM84 often sound different.
If the 0-13 seems bright, their 0-11 would be a better choice, it's a smoother rounder sound. Don't get me wrong, I love the 84, but I prefer the 0-13.
If the 3U sounds close to an 84, that's certainly a good thing.
John's had both, maybe he can give us his thoughts.
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Post by wiz on Nov 30, 2017 0:08:15 GMT -6
For under $350 i took the plunge and ordered a 127 c flat. Having owned a km84 and a soyuz 013 i think i may be in a good position to comment when it arrives. BTW i did not find the soyuz su-013 sounded the same as the km84. It does maintain quite a reasonable off axis tone to on axis. I found surprisingly that my Miktek C5 straight on the source sounded closer to my km84 then the soyuz su-013. But the Miktek does not have as good as an off axis sound. Both the su-013 and the C5 were a tad brighter them the km84. Lets see how the 3U 127 c goes when it arrives. Be interested to hear what you think... I have a KM84 and two 184s. Cheers Wiz
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2017 0:51:31 GMT -6
Heard back from Guosheng, am gonna order a Warbler 127-C-Flat soon, for acoustic guitar.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 30, 2017 3:11:58 GMT -6
And I'm a self-admitted mic snob. I have drawers FULL of mics that "do the job" but which are not stellar. I'm looking for stellar. Is this one not stellar enough for you? www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CMC64Set43 years AE around the globe tell the story its the best SDC you can buy. IMO they are right. To me its the must have SDC ... if you can afford it. It gives the most detailed picture I ever heard over the whole range. If its not enough for you? In this case I assure you - the problem is not the microphone!!!! It sure is - but I can't afford a pair of them.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 30, 2017 3:24:57 GMT -6
Yeah, you can usually make 184s work, they're not THAT bad, but they're not great. The usual joke is that a 184 is just like an 84 but without all the things that make 84s special. It's not the capsule. Capsule's the same. I can usually make Oktava 012s work, too. I'm very intrigued by the Soyuz SDCs, and am waiting to find out what any of my "reference ears" have to say about them compared to the 84. There's a thread running over at Terry Manning's place concerned with SDCs and I made a point of asking - have not seen an answer yet. I agree with everything but the 184 is not the same Capsule as the 84, you can still get 84 Capsules but they are not 184 Capsules! Are you certain of that? I haven't needed to purchase an 84 capsule so I don't know for sure, but I've been told by a number of people who should know what they're talking about that the two mics use the same capsule and the sonic differences are due to different head amp designs, revolving to a large degree around changes related to the lack of a transformer as well as an ill-adviosed attempt to "modernize" the sound of the mic.
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Post by stormymondays on Nov 30, 2017 4:02:11 GMT -6
If the KM84 is not the A-strum and B-finger, I'll eat my hat. I'm listening on crappy hifi bookshelf speakers, but that's not an excuse.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2017 6:16:06 GMT -6
I liked B more the strum, couldn't decide on the picked. Pretty close, like you said. If B strum is the 3U I'll be very happy.
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Post by matt@IAA on Nov 30, 2017 7:40:47 GMT -6
If 'phase flip' is phase cancellation between the two, I'm surpised there's that much music between them with one out of phase. Yes, I flipped phase on only one. It's pretty quiet -- but as I mentioned the 127cflat has a bit of it's own thing going on in 500-2k and 6k-10k region. Everywhere else is darn close to the 84. I think that jives pretty well with the phase canceled file.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,958
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Post by ericn on Nov 30, 2017 9:08:02 GMT -6
I agree with everything but the 184 is not the same Capsule as the 84, you can still get 84 Capsules but they are not 184 Capsules! Are you certain of that? I haven't needed to purchase an 84 capsule so I don't know for sure, but I've been told by a number of people who should know what they're talking about that the two mics use the same capsule and the sonic differences are due to different head amp designs, revolving to a large degree around changes related to the lack of a transformer as well as an ill-adviosed attempt to "modernize" the sound of the mic. Yep different part numbers price and design as well as stated by current Pres of Sennhieser USA!
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Post by matt@IAA on Nov 30, 2017 9:23:25 GMT -6
Don't want to keep y'all in suspense for too long.
Strum A - 127 C Flat B - KM84
Finger picked A - KM84 B - 127 C Flat
Guosheng told me that he developed the C flat capsule based on user request for a smooth top end like a KM84. He didn't clone the KM84 capsule (it wouldn't fit in the 127 body) or circuitry. So this is an originally designed mic, voiced with a smooth top end (84 vibe) in mind. I asked him once if he copied or emulated mics. He said he designs and tests using equipment and his ears. This is the first time I've ever seen him reference another mic explicitly on a design basis. Kinda surprised me actually. Usually he doesn't even use the same numbers to "hint" at a comparison, but he will describe them with bench mark "sounds like a smoother or darker 251" etc.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 30, 2017 9:36:04 GMT -6
Don't want to keep y'all in suspense for too long. Strum A - 127 C Flat B - KM84 Finger picked A - KM84 B - 127 C Flat Guosheng told me that he developed the C flat capsule based on user request for a smooth top end like a KM84. He didn't clone the KM84 capsule (it wouldn't fit in the 127 body) or circuitry. So this is an originally designed mic, voiced with a smooth top end (84 vibe) in mind. I asked him once if he copied or emulated mics. He said he designs and tests using equipment and his ears. This is the first time I've ever seen him reference another mic explicitly on a design basis. Kinda surprised me actually. Usually he doesn't even use the same numbers to "hint" at a comparison, but he will describe them with bench mark "sounds like a smoother or darker 251" etc. This is a bummer. I thought for sure I was preferring the 3U mics because B-strum and A-fingers felt more alive to me and I was expecting that to be because of a more scooped sounding modern mic. The 3U examples felt flat to my ears. He does use numbers though...GZ251, GZ67, GZ47...
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Post by matt@IAA on Nov 30, 2017 9:43:13 GMT -6
Yes, you're right for the GZ series - I was thinking of the Warbler line.
I've never had a chance to play with any of the GZ series, so I can't really comment there.
Sorry I don't have any better references. Everything else I have on the 127s is either me on acoustic when I first got them (and you don't really want to hear that) or drum OHs.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2017 10:31:23 GMT -6
Thanks for posting the demos, and info on which was which, matt@IAA. This is a bummer. I thought for sure I was preferring the 3U mics because B-strum and A-fingers felt more alive to me and I was expecting that to be because of a more scooped sounding modern mic. The 3U examples felt flat to my ears. I felt the same, was sure B-strum would be the 3U as it sounded clearer in the mids and highs, due to what I thought would be the "modern voicing", but I guess the KM84 is just a really nice mic. Maybe I'll save up for one. What are they, about $1k used these days?
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 30, 2017 11:10:11 GMT -6
Thanks for posting the demos, and info on which was which, matt@IAA . This is a bummer. I thought for sure I was preferring the 3U mics because B-strum and A-fingers felt more alive to me and I was expecting that to be because of a more scooped sounding modern mic. The 3U examples felt flat to my ears. I felt the same, was sure B-strum would be the 3U as it sounded clearer in the mids and highs, due to what I thought would be the "modern voicing", but I guess the KM84 is just a really nice mic. Maybe I'll save up for one. What are they, about $1k used these days? That's what I paid for mine, no clip and box, in a private sale. Dealer price appears to be around $1500 or maybe a bit more, depending.
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Post by ragan on Nov 30, 2017 11:38:22 GMT -6
I see them pretty regularly on GS for $1100-1200
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2017 2:52:07 GMT -6
I decided to take a punt on the 3U Warbler 127 Cardioid Flat, I also ordered the Omni Flat capsule to go with it. Looking forward to it! Will be my first "proper" Omni.
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Post by stormymondays on Dec 1, 2017 14:54:24 GMT -6
I'm getting one too, after seeing that I seemed to like it better than the KM84 on this particular shootout! Let's see how it compares to my Joly-modded Oktava. However, I wish I hadn't see the Schoeps mentioned! I just remembered a voice+guitar recording I did 15 years ago with a rented U67 and a rented Schoeps. It practically mixed itself!
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Post by terryrocks on Dec 1, 2017 15:40:04 GMT -6
Curious about them vs joly 012 as well. I use a pair often on overheads and acoustic gtrs.
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Post by hadaja on Dec 3, 2017 23:27:19 GMT -6
Quick test the Soyuz su-013 is just a little brighter in the top end by a smidgeon and the bottom seems a little rounder - blooms a little more. The Warbler 127 Flat C just has that little hint of plastic sound compared to the SU-013. My goodness it is only a fraction of "plasticy" sound. There's a good $450 price difference between these mics. You would not be disapointted with the Warbler 127 C if you were looking to get into the KM84 territory. I also found the Soyuz a fair but hotter then the Warbler. The Miktek c5 is just a tad softer again then the Warbler and the Soyuz. sounds very similar to the warbler with just a hint more plasticy sounding (slight crunchy maybe a better descriptive word) then the Warbler 127 C Flat . When comparing it to the Suyoz after a while you can hear that the Soyuz is a little warmer and a bit bigger in sound. It also has nice highs but has a little more pronounced low mids. I think I like it best. Now I should go and find my Beyer MC930's to compare them against that mic. So the end result is, if you are on a tight budget the Warbler is a great option. I like it better then the Miktek C5. Nothing Scientific was carried out here, just plugging the mics into the same channel and speaking and singing a phrase.
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