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Post by jsteiger on Feb 25, 2018 16:41:28 GMT -6
I'd be all over this Summing box if I didn't already have my API 8200,8200A setup. Hmmm, maybe to expand them?? However, that DAWtomation box has me drooling........ I'd be very curious to shoot the SumBus out against the other stuff. I would nearly bet my nut sack that the SumBus would take the cake. A few hours ago I got a new DAWto software update that has a ton of little functionality things added in. I can't wait to get this version tested. We are VERY near the finish line...finally.
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Post by keymod on Feb 25, 2018 18:17:20 GMT -6
I'd be all over this Summing box if I didn't already have my API 8200,8200A setup. Hmmm, maybe to expand them?? However, that DAWtomation box has me drooling........ I'd be very curious to shoot the SumBus out against the other stuff. I would nearly bet my nut sack that the SumBus would take the cake. A few hours ago I got a new DAWto software update that has a ton of little functionality things added in. I can't wait to get this version tested. We are VERY near the finish line...finally. I would bet yours sounds better also. However, my budget tells me to keep the API 8200/8200A, use CAPI gear as the front end and find a way to pay for CAPI Automation System.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 26, 2018 12:08:44 GMT -6
I'd be very curious to shoot the SumBus out against the other stuff. I would nearly bet my nut sack that the SumBus would take the cake. A few hours ago I got a new DAWto software update that has a ton of little functionality things added in. I can't wait to get this version tested. We are VERY near the finish line...finally. I would bet yours sounds better also. However, my budget tells me to keep the API 8200/8200A, use CAPI gear as the front end and find a way to pay for CAPI Automation System. Always wondered what a 8200 system with some Red dots, or GAR’s some of Jeff or Ed’s Iron with the proper buss resistors and Jeff’s ACA would sound like! I Always thought the 8200 with some more “vintage tone” was the most versatile summing system out there and the box was a stupid product ! There’s the product for somebody to clone/ improve a 8200/ 7600/7800 system ! Just package it on 500 series centers, make sure the opamps are 2520 format and the iron is easy for somebody to play with!
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Post by mythundreamt on Feb 26, 2018 14:39:54 GMT -6
Always wondered what a 8200 system with some Red dots, or GAR’s some of Jeff or Ed’s Iron with the proper buss resistors and Jeff’s ACA would sound like! I Always thought the 8200 with some more “vintage tone” was the most versatile summing system out there and the box was a stupid product ! There’s the product for somebody to clone/ improve a 8200/ 7600/7800 system ! Just package it on 500 series centers, make sure the opamps are 2520 format and the iron is easy for somebody to play with! We did a shootout comparing a borrowed 7800/8200 with Red dots vs GAR1731s vs modern 2520s vs an Equinox and even a vintage Neve summing board, posted on another well known gear related site under the title "Huge summing shootout". Wish we could repeat it with the Sumbus, eagerly waiting its announcement! www.gearslutz.com/board/gear-shoot-outs-sound-file-comparisons-audio-tests/1194518-huge-summing-shootout-vintage-neve-shadow-hills-equinox-api-dsm-w-diff-op-amps.htmlSomehow it never got much interest, not sure if it was the poor composition (just a test track made up and played on the fly) or the poor mix or something else.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 26, 2018 15:54:33 GMT -6
Always wondered what a 8200 system with some Red dots, or GAR’s some of Jeff or Ed’s Iron with the proper buss resistors and Jeff’s ACA would sound like! I Always thought the 8200 with some more “vintage tone” was the most versatile summing system out there and the box was a stupid product ! There’s the product for somebody to clone/ improve a 8200/ 7600/7800 system ! Just package it on 500 series centers, make sure the opamps are 2520 format and the iron is easy for somebody to play with! We did a shootout comparing a borrowed 7800/8200 with Red dots vs GAR1731s vs modern 2520s vs an Equinox and even a vintage Neve summing board, posted on another well known gear related site under the title "Huge summing shootout". Wish we could repeat it with the Sumbus, eagerly waiting its announcement! www.gearslutz.com/board/gear-shoot-outs-sound-file-comparisons-audio-tests/1194518-huge-summing-shootout-vintage-neve-shadow-hills-equinox-api-dsm-w-diff-op-amps.htmlSomehow it never got much interest, not sure if it was the poor composition (just a test track made up and played on the fly) or the poor mix or something else. First welcome to RGO hope you like it and feel like this is a place where you feel free to share you thoughts opinions and share in our collective irreverent sense of humor! Now don’t take this the wrong way, but I can see where a 8200/7600/7800 would not fair well in a shootout, I have said here there and every where ALL summing boxes are consoles where somebody else has decided what features you don’t need !! Of what we call summing box systems the Discontinued API is probably as close to Console as you can get and with some mod’s the closest and most versatile to a classic console with bussing options (you could bring a 8200 or more with different resistors before to a patch bay and then to another ACA to form groups ) but this means unlike most summing boxes your mixing on the API!!! I have tried many times but a mixer shootout that shows what different MIXERS bring to the party in any scientific manor ! God knows I have spent 30 years trying!
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Post by mythundreamt on Feb 26, 2018 16:38:39 GMT -6
Thanks, happy to be here! Yeah, you're quite right the DSM system was (is) not a summing box, and its actually quite impressive just how much they squeezed into three rackspaces. I never could decide if I was impressed by it sonically or not, though. Really looking forward to the SumBus, and hoping it'll have more of that vintage goo-ey "console" sound.
"All summing boxes are consoles where somebody else has decided what features you don’t need !!" - that's actually very clever.
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Post by matt@IAA on Feb 26, 2018 20:47:42 GMT -6
I would bet yours sounds better also. However, my budget tells me to keep the API 8200/8200A, use CAPI gear as the front end and find a way to pay for CAPI Automation System. Always wondered what a 8200 system with some Red dots, or GAR’s some of Jeff or Ed’s Iron with the proper buss resistors and Jeff’s ACA would sound like! I Always thought the 8200 with some more “vintage tone” was the most versatile summing system out there and the box was a stupid product ! There’s the product for somebody to clone/ improve a 8200/ 7600/7800 system ! Just package it on 500 series centers, make sure the opamps are 2520 format and the iron is easy for somebody to play with! I’ll make one for you Eric. It’s pretty easy if you don’t bother with the sends and input switching. 8 in, pan volume mute on each channel, two out with a master fader. Honestly if you assume it is a front end from a DAW you don’t even really need the volume or mute.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 26, 2018 22:00:04 GMT -6
Always wondered what a 8200 system with some Red dots, or GAR’s some of Jeff or Ed’s Iron with the proper buss resistors and Jeff’s ACA would sound like! I Always thought the 8200 with some more “vintage tone” was the most versatile summing system out there and the box was a stupid product ! There’s the product for somebody to clone/ improve a 8200/ 7600/7800 system ! Just package it on 500 series centers, make sure the opamps are 2520 format and the iron is easy for somebody to play with! I’ll make one for you Eric. It’s pretty easy if you don’t bother with the sends and input switching. 8 in, pan volume mute on each channel, two out with a master fader. Honestly if you assume it is a front end from a DAW you don’t even really need the volume or mute. Hah Ideally I want 4 aux plus 4 sub and PFL basically the mixer section of the 7600 with 47k buss resistors, I was working with an EE who had contacted me about something like this but he suddenly finds himself way to busy with 101 year commitment to make license plates for the state of AZ! Because of this shelved project I bought a Martin Sound Monitor MAXX with remote because it has a 4 volt logic for SOLO! Yep a monitor controller for those who want to build their own mixer ! Who knew ? Or it just shows what a true Audio Geek I am ( hey I just showed my wife a rough design of a speaker design that uses one 6ft mid high tower with 4 8in volt and 3in volt mid and a BE dome paired with a second wider deeper tower on each side with 8 volt 10in subs so that you could biamp with a pair of 35 watt tube amps or first WATT and still be -3dB at 18hz amps she said NO, for now)! The big argument was ribbon or PCB bussing ? And what size modular chassis? I was big on 8 input frames because as much as I hate them, the density and standardization of them a no brainer!
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Post by keymod on Feb 27, 2018 4:14:47 GMT -6
I’ll make one for you Eric. It’s pretty easy if you don’t bother with the sends and input switching. 8 in, pan volume mute on each channel, two out with a master fader. Honestly if you assume it is a front end from a DAW you don’t even really need the volume or mute. Hah Ideally I want 4 aux plus 4 sub and PFL basically the mixer section of the 7600 with 47k buss resistors, I was working with an EE who had contacted me about something like this but he suddenly finds himself way to busy with 101 year commitment to make license plates for the state of AZ! Because of this shelved project I bought a Martin Sound Monitor MAXX with remote because it has a 4 volt logic for SOLO! Yep a monitor controller for those who want to build their own mixer ! Who knew ? Or it just shows what a true Audio Geek I am ( hey I just showed my wife a rough design of a speaker design that uses one 6ft mid high tower with 4 8in volt and 3in volt mid and a BE dome paired with a second wider deeper tower on each side with 8 volt 10in subs so that you could biamp with a pair of 35 watt tube amps or first WATT and still be -3dB at 18hz amps she said NO, for now)! The big argument was ribbon or PCB bussing ? And what size modular chassis? I was big on 8 input frames because as much as I hate them, the density and standardization of them a no brainer! What do the 47K resistors do?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 27, 2018 7:25:20 GMT -6
Hah Ideally I want 4 aux plus 4 sub and PFL basically the mixer section of the 7600 with 47k buss resistors, I was working with an EE who had contacted me about something like this but he suddenly finds himself way to busy with 101 year commitment to make license plates for the state of AZ! Because of this shelved project I bought a Martin Sound Monitor MAXX with remote because it has a 4 volt logic for SOLO! Yep a monitor controller for those who want to build their own mixer ! Who knew ? Or it just shows what a true Audio Geek I am ( hey I just showed my wife a rough design of a speaker design that uses one 6ft mid high tower with 4 8in volt and 3in volt mid and a BE dome paired with a second wider deeper tower on each side with 8 volt 10in subs so that you could biamp with a pair of 35 watt tube amps or first WATT and still be -3dB at 18hz amps she said NO, for now)! The big argument was ribbon or PCB bussing ? And what size modular chassis? I was big on 8 input frames because as much as I hate them, the density and standardization of them a no brainer! What do the 47K resistors do? Compatibility with Jeff’s ACA summing .
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 27, 2018 8:23:56 GMT -6
Yeah the original design was based on a design on group DIY schematic and a Tonelux based physical layout it didn’t sound that good and was physicallly tight my job was to comment on Sonics and refine physical layout! In 4 rack U 2 dual consentric pots work well with a pan pot and small assign switches if you set up the 4 groups as 2 stereo and then put stereo group 1,2 and LR in one column and mute and solo in another, use a separate panel for fader, that way if somebody was low on space they could use 60MM or rotary! Another scenario was move switches to fader panel and save a rack U sort of a bastardized combo of most auto system and where you Find VCA assignment on live boards ! 6 rack U works well for individual aux pots mono group assign and biggly Solo and mute ( I haves some the same switches API uses in storage somewhere plus you can add a small mic/ line switch at this size and small resessed trimmer pots for these plus fader panel!
A ribbon cable makes this easy if you design the metal work with this in mind but, you have to get the interval between connectors right, a concept I was working on was a ribbon cable with fixed connectors screwed to the chassis so it acted sort of like a physical backplane when installing modules. Physical backplane is probably superior in every respect except that you have all your signals passing through the connectors you use for connecting the backplane boards! I have always been a supporter of unbalanced inserts if the internal bussing is unbalanced, why add a stage and change the tone if you use the insert? Ideally every block of 8 ch would have a summing bucket yeah that’s 12 ch of summing for every 8 ch plus 12 ch of ACA plus booster for master section, but since ACA can handle up to 32 input you could have a 28ch plus 4 group system that would function without the use of summing buckets like Modern API. Of course the summing buckets take up more space! I really need to get a 7600 in front of me to see Paul Wolf’s small footprint mixer in front of me, of course he likes to use reverse taper pots for Aux sends. One of the things I stressed was if you built the architecture you could also offer a non discrete option as well with either discrete or non discrete summing as well. Everybody wants a 500 series Console, part of the mentality is “500 means small” , but that’s far from reality in terms of a Console!!! But it is the excepted format for a modular system! Other than symitry and size there is no reason for the mixer matrix to be tied to the 3 rack u height, though you could probably offer a 11 ch API 8200 in 3 u without a problem and make many very happy, simply off set the colum of pots a bit and have a colum of bullet switches next to it.
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Post by mythundreamt on Feb 27, 2018 9:37:11 GMT -6
I’ll make one for you Eric. It’s pretty easy if you don’t bother with the sends and input switching. 8 in, pan volume mute on each channel, two out with a master fader. Honestly if you assume it is a front end from a DAW you don’t even really need the volume or mute. If I may ask, and I don't mean to divert from the SumBus convo (although it is kinda relevant innit), but if you're serious, can I ask how much something like that would cost? Say, 16 in, pan vol mute on each channel, to 2-bus with master fader and not a thing else.
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Post by matt@IAA on Feb 27, 2018 10:31:36 GMT -6
I’ll make one for you Eric. It’s pretty easy if you don’t bother with the sends and input switching. 8 in, pan volume mute on each channel, two out with a master fader. Honestly if you assume it is a front end from a DAW you don’t even really need the volume or mute. If I may ask, and I don't mean to divert from the SumBus convo (although it is kinda relevant innit), but if you're serious, can I ask how much something like that would cost? Say, 16 in, pan vol mute on each channel, to 2-bus with master fader and not a thing else. I’ll start a thread in the DIY forum: realgearonline.com/thread/8392/diy-8200-ish-box
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