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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 9, 2016 12:42:24 GMT -6
Why is this not working for me? Hyatt want to be able to plug say a small condenser into my patchbay and then Route that to a mic pre-and be able to turn on the phantom power. That way I would have the Mike's plugged in and ready to go. But it ain't working. I have the DBX quarter-inch patchbay. Cheap.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Dec 9, 2016 13:39:01 GMT -6
you're plugged into the right jacks? that's easy to miss...
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Post by svart on Dec 9, 2016 14:06:33 GMT -6
Looks like the DBX comes as either half or de-normalled according to their website. That really dictates which jacks get phantom through the patchbay. De-normalled should pass phantom through without issues. Half-normalled will pass through to one set of connectors, but not the other. www.bnoack.com/graphics/audiopatch01.jpg |
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 9, 2016 15:22:23 GMT -6
Why is this not working for me? Hyatt want to be able to plug say a small condenser into my patchbay and then Route that to a mic pre-and be able to turn on the phantom power. That way I would have the Mike's plugged in and ready to go. But it ain't working. I have the DBX quarter-inch patchbay. Cheap. You should never run phantom through a phone plug type patch bay. Not only is there the danger of blowing the ribbons in any vintage ribbon mics you might have if you happen to be forgetful (or an inexperienced person uses the studio), it's also not good for the phantom supply to be shorted briefly when the plug is inserted or removed. It may not kill anything immediately but the damage can be cumulative. Some phantom supplies are more susceptable than others. I have a small XLR patch panel going to 8 channels of mic pres to deal with this. (You can build a panel to do this for about $100 or less using a pre-punched one space panel.) Why yours isn't working I'd guess something's miswired or something's wonky with the normalling. (There should be NO normalling on that/those channel(s).) But again, I'd advise against doing it. |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 9, 2016 15:42:10 GMT -6
Why is this not working for me? Hyatt want to be able to plug say a small condenser into my patchbay and then Route that to a mic pre-and be able to turn on the phantom power. That way I would have the Mike's plugged in and ready to go. But it ain't working. I have the DBX quarter-inch patchbay. Cheap. You should never run phantom through a phone plug type patch bay. Not only is there the danger of blowing the ribbons in any vintage ribbon mics you might have if you happen to be forgetful (or an inexperienced person uses the studio), it's also not good for the phantom supply to be shorted briefly when the plug is inserted or removed. It may not kill anything immediately but the damage can be cumulative. Some phantom supplies are more susceptable than others. I have a small XLR patch panel going to 8 channels of mic pres to deal with this. (You can build a panel to do this for about $100 or less using a pre-punched one space panel.) Why yours isn't working I'd guess something's miswired or something's wonky with the normalling. (There should be NO normalling on that/those channel(s).) But again, I'd advise against doing it. I've never been in a pro studio where you didn't have to go through a patch bay to use outboard gear and turn the phantom on. Even if you want to use the desk preamps everything is still going through the bay and is normaled... Just habe to know to turn phantom on after everything is patched and before you start unplugging stuff at the end of a session. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 9, 2016 15:42:19 GMT -6
Phantom through TT & 1/4 bays has been done for years in most major studios and how every major console maker has done it for years with included bays. You do need to take care with ribbons l, the problem with generic modular made in China bays is you need to tie the grounds on all the channels with phantom and bays like yours are not set up for this!!
In your case call Redco get a panel with a couple XLR panel mount females wired to XLR Males or get a real bay!
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Post by svart on Dec 9, 2016 16:04:33 GMT -6
I've gone through TT 'bays for more than a decade with phantom, hot plugging like an idiot, but I've never had a failure of anything, mic or preamp or otherwise.
I'd still advise to turn the phantom off first if you can though. Doesn't cost anything to be more careful.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 9, 2016 17:35:46 GMT -6
You should never run phantom through a phone plug type patch bay. Not only is there the danger of blowing the ribbons in any vintage ribbon mics you might have if you happen to be forgetful (or an inexperienced person uses the studio), it's also not good for the phantom supply to be shorted briefly when the plug is inserted or removed. It may not kill anything immediately but the damage can be cumulative. Some phantom supplies are more susceptable than others. I have a small XLR patch panel going to 8 channels of mic pres to deal with this. (You can build a panel to do this for about $100 or less using a pre-punched one space panel.) Why yours isn't working I'd guess something's miswired or something's wonky with the normalling. (There should be NO normalling on that/those channel(s).) But again, I'd advise against doing it. I've never been in a pro studio where you didn't have to go through a patch bay to use outboard gear and turn the phantom on. Even if you want to use the desk preamps everything is still going through the bay and is normaled... Just habe to know to turn phantom on after everything is patched and before you start unplugging stuff at the end of a session. |
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 9, 2016 18:09:17 GMT -6
I've never been in a pro studio where you didn't have to go through a patch bay to use outboard gear and turn the phantom on. Even if you want to use the desk preamps everything is still going through the bay and is normaled... Of course you have to go through a patch bay to use outboard - unless you're crazy and love wasting time grubbing about on your hands and knees in the back of amp racks. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about mic inputs, which is a different thing entirely. Which reminds me - another reason not to run mic inputs through your phone plug bay - you do NOT want to accidentally apply phantom power to an output circuit in a piece of non-transformer coupled outboard gear. Not unless you enjoy down time and supporting your favorite studio tech. Have you EVER seen a piece of outboard that required phantom power applied to the output? I haven't. I haven't even read about such a thing on the Innernutz. Keep patch points and mic ins SEPARATE and differentiated by connector. EDIT: All the PRO studios I've been to have mic line access points built into the wall. Corollary to Murphy's Law #31B: Everybody's an idiot sometimes. Corollary to the corollary: So idiot proof your studio. Save money, time, and grief. And you've only been to sessions where the only patching has been at the beginning and end of the session? Really? C'mon.... Sometiomes patching occurs while the session is in progress. Sometimes this must be done, er, expeditiously. In the heat of the moment things soimetimes get overlooked and misteaks can be grilled. Steaks should not be grilled during sessions. A good deal of my attitude is informed by over 20 years spent as a service tech in various aspects of the audio industry. One of the things I learned is that if there's a way to make a stupid mistake that causes expensive damage somebody will find it. Usually more than once. FWIW my console (a mid level - about $80,00 new - English console from the mid '90s) has a built-in 544 point TT patch bay. There is NO provision for wiring mic inputs through the bay. None. It's bad practice. And there is PB routing for damn near everything else, or at least everything that makes any sense. (There's also an external 96 point bay because 544 wasn't enough, and that's getting pretty full, too. Plus the XLR patch bay to the mic pres.) Why would you even want mic ins on your tt or 1/4" bay"? Mic cables terminate in XLRs. Correction: I was mistaken - it does have mic ins in the bay, I'd just forgottern about them because we don't ever use them and don't even have them labelled... |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 9, 2016 18:38:44 GMT -6
I guess SSL got it wrong then.
I've been on all sorts of sessions, and yes I've patched in the middle of sessions as an assistant and engineer in many studios - that's how sessions work, and the studios have all been wired up the exact same way - which is everything in the 1/4" or tt bay. I know that phantom is off on every piece of gear in the room before I start patching because I check every piece of gear 2 hours before anybody else shows up. I have my input list I made the night before and basically have every piece of gear memorized. If I make a change, it is documented on the input list by myself or an assistant and its copied on a pad that sits on the console to make sure I don't forget. Before I pull a patch, change mics, turn phantom power on or off, there is a checklist of things that go through my brain. It's just what I was taught to do and I couldn't be more thankful that I was taught in that manner.
I can understand wanting to dummy proof a room, but when I was taught, I was "dummy proofed", and I do the same for the assistants that I train.
There are so many wrong patches you can make in a patch bay to blow stuff up and lose the magic smoke - phantom is one that is of concern, but it's at the lower part of my list.
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Post by ericn on Dec 9, 2016 18:51:48 GMT -6
Of course you have to go through a patch bay to use outboard - unless you're crazy and love wasting time grubbing about on your hands and knees in the back of amp racks. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about mic inputs, which is a different thing entirely. Which reminds me - another reason not to run mic inputs through your phone plug bay - you do NOT want to accidentally apply phantom power to an output circuit in a piece of non-transformer coupled outboard gear. Not unless you enjoy down time and supporting your favorite studio tech. Have you EVER seen a piece of outboard that required phantom power applied to the output? I haven't. I haven't even read about such a thing on the Innernutz. Keep patch points and mic ins SEPARATE and differentiated by connector. EDIT: All the PRO studios I've been to have mic line access points built into the wall. Corollary to Murphy's Law #31B: Everybody's an idiot sometimes. Corollary to the corollary: So idiot proof your studio. Save money, time, and grief. And you've only been to sessions where the only patching has been at the beginning and end of the session? Really? C'mon.... Sometiomes patching occurs while the session is in progress. Sometimes this must be done, er, expeditiously. In the heat of the moment things soimetimes get overlooked and misteaks can be grilled. Steaks should not be grilled during sessions. A good deal of my attitude is informed by over 20 years spent as a service tech in various aspects of the audio industry. One of the things I learned is that if there's a way to make a stupid mistake that causes expensive damage somebody will find it. Usually more than once. FWIW my console (a mid level - about $80,00 new - English console from the mid '90s) has a built-in 544 point TT patch bay. There is NO provision for wiring mic inputs through the bay. None. It's bad practice. And there is PB routing for damn near everything else, or at least everything that makes any sense. (There's also an external 96 point bay because 544 wasn't enough, and that's getting pretty full, too. Plus the XLR patch bay to the mic pres.) Why would you even want mic ins on your tt or 1/4" bay"? Mic cables terminate in XLRs. Others have also been doing this just as long or longer as well, I have Only seen one Ribbon ever damaged by it being hot patched and to quote a tech who had over 50 years of working in studios " If a piece of rack gear is damaged because of accidental exposure to phantom power it's doing you a favor because any piece designed That poorly has no place in the studio" The ease of having things norrmalled, and one standard of patch cord Has always won out in every big room I have ever been in, as has the The rule you always turn the channel your doing any patching on's phantom first! I also was in a studio where the phantom supply and switch was on the jack plate, that was the best solution I have ever seen! |
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Post by EmRR on Dec 9, 2016 20:00:55 GMT -6
Just cause everyone does it doesn't mean you should. Consider this: www.thatcorp.com/datashts/AES127-000183.pdfJohn, might not be working because of a lack of ground connection through? With the Neutrik bays ground through is a setting you configure. |
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 9, 2016 21:12:44 GMT -6
Of course you have to go through a patch bay to use outboard - unless you're crazy and love wasting time grubbing about on your hands and knees in the back of amp racks. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about mic inputs, which is a different thing entirely. Which reminds me - another reason not to run mic inputs through your phone plug bay - you do NOT want to accidentally apply phantom power to an output circuit in a piece of non-transformer coupled outboard gear. Not unless you enjoy down time and supporting your favorite studio tech. Have you EVER seen a piece of outboard that required phantom power applied to the output? I haven't. I haven't even read about such a thing on the Innernutz. Keep patch points and mic ins SEPARATE and differentiated by connector. EDIT: All the PRO studios I've been to have mic line access points built into the wall. Corollary to Murphy's Law #31B: Everybody's an idiot sometimes. Corollary to the corollary: So idiot proof your studio. Save money, time, and grief. And you've only been to sessions where the only patching has been at the beginning and end of the session? Really? C'mon.... Sometiomes patching occurs while the session is in progress. Sometimes this must be done, er, expeditiously. In the heat of the moment things soimetimes get overlooked and misteaks can be grilled. Steaks should not be grilled during sessions. A good deal of my attitude is informed by over 20 years spent as a service tech in various aspects of the audio industry. One of the things I learned is that if there's a way to make a stupid mistake that causes expensive damage somebody will find it. Usually more than once. FWIW my console (a mid level - about $80,00 new - English console from the mid '90s) has a built-in 544 point TT patch bay. There is NO provision for wiring mic inputs through the bay. None. It's bad practice. And there is PB routing for damn near everything else, or at least everything that makes any sense. (There's also an external 96 point bay because 544 wasn't enough, and that's getting pretty full, too. Plus the XLR patch bay to the mic pres.) Why would you even want mic ins on your tt or 1/4" bay"? Mic cables terminate in XLRs. Others have also been doing this just as long or longer as well, I have Only seen one Ribbon ever damaged by it being hot patched and to quote a tech who had over 50 years of working in studios " If a piece of rack gear is damaged because of accidental exposure to phantom power it's doing you a favor because any piece designed That poorly has no place in the studio" The ease of having things norrmalled, and one standard of patch cord Has always won out in every big room I have ever been in, as has the The rule you always turn the channel your doing any patching on's phantom first! I also was in a studio where the phantom supply and switch was on the jack plate, that was the best solution I have ever seen! Except that there is not "one standard of patch cord" here. Mic cables use XLR, NOT TRS or TT. Why do you need to "normal" a mic cable No reason. No piece of gear with a transformerless output is protected for a DC voltage across its output. Not just cheap Chinese, ANYTHING. SS amplifier outputs do not like extraneous DC applied to them. Is everyone so perfect that they ALWAYS "follow the rules" My experience would indicate no. A studio where the phantom supply and switch was on the jack plate - that would imply it didn't run through the patch bay. |
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 9, 2016 21:48:19 GMT -6
Phantom through TT & 1/4 bays has been done for years in most major studios and how every major console maker has done it for years with included bays. You do need to take care with ribbons l, the problem with generic modular made in China bays is you need to tie the grounds on all the channels with phantom and bays like yours are not set up for this!! In your case call Redco get a panel with a couple XLR panel mount females wired to XLR Males or get a real bay! There have been lots of commercial studios opened in the last decade or so that are not up to PROFESSIONAL spec. Most, if not all major console makers do not run mic lines through patch bays. Mic pre outputs, yes. Mic inputs, no. Mic pre outputs do not carry phantom. The CONVENIENT way to do it is not always the CORRECT way to do it. Frequently quite the contrary. Do not sacrifice reliability for expediency. Again, you've never worked a session where patchins was done hurriedly "in the heat of the moment"? DEAD WRONG! Solid state (transformerless) amplifier stages are not tolerant of having external power applied to the output of the stage. Anyone with any experience as a service tech knows this. There are protection circuits that can avoid damage but they have a generally detrimental effect on audio quality, which is why you rarely, if ever, see them in quality gear. Tube gear and transformer coupled SS gear is not susceptible, as transformers don't pass DC. And even if the misapplied phantom does cause permanent damage it has a very detrimental effect on audio quality. You DO NOT want to tie the grounds on ANY patch bay - that's an open invitation to ground loops. MORE REALLY BAD PRACTICE! Read the Jensen white papers on grounding - it's in there somewhere, but I'm not going to look it up for you, you need to read the literature for yourself. |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 9, 2016 22:37:08 GMT -6
Every SSL Ive worked on has had the mic lines in the patchbay. Electric Lady and Avatar (power station) are set up like this - as is the desk Ive worked on for 12 years... It IS the norm from what I can tell. These are all professional studios that have been around and had many a record come out of their apparently incorrectly wired rooms.
And yes I've made quick patches in the heat
Of the moment. Like I said - I know where the signal is going on my sessions and I don't start freaking out and pulling cables...
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 9, 2016 22:57:04 GMT -6
Every SSL Ive worked on has had the mic lines in the patchbay. Electric Lady and Avatar (power station) are set up like this - as is the desk Ive worked on for 12 years... It IS the norm from what I can tell. These are all professional studios that have been around and had many a record come out of their apparently incorrectly wired rooms. And yes I've made quick patches in the heat Of the moment. Like I said - I know where the signal is going on my sessions and I don't start freaking out and pulling cables... Most SSL studeios are MIXDOWN studios, not trackiing studios. |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 9, 2016 23:11:05 GMT -6
These are all rooms with large tracking rooms attached. People DO actually use SSL preamps from time to time. I've tracked in all of these rooms...
The desks were purpose built for tracking and mixing. Every J, K, Duality (with their newer harmonic preamp option), AWS, I've used have pres on every channel. They are normalled in the patch bay, and the bay is normalled to the mic lines. You can plug a mic into the panel in the tracking room and push up the fader on the console and you have signal.
Every room at Avatar, Electric Lady, Sony (now gone unfortunately), Hit Factory (also gone), Clinton, Quad, etc was wired like this.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 10, 2016 6:31:24 GMT -6
These are all rooms with large tracking rooms attached. People DO actually use SSL preamps from time to time. I've tracked in all of these rooms... The desks were purpose built for tracking and mixing. Every J, K, Duality (with their newer harmonic preamp option), AWS, I've used have pres on every channel. They are normalled in the patch bay, and the bay is normalled to the mic lines. You can plug a mic into the panel in the tracking room and push up the fader on the console and you have signal. Every room at Avatar, Electric Lady, Sony (now gone unfortunately), Hit Factory (also gone), Clinton, Quad, etc was wired like this. Well, everybody makes mistakes. It's probably less of an issue for studios who only have their gear handled by their own assistant engineers and who have large enough inventories to be able to immediately replace any item that might go up in smoke. |
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Post by EmRR on Dec 10, 2016 10:37:28 GMT -6
Phantom power is designed to distribute a maximum possible current flow of 14mA into a dead short, most mics draw far less than this. The AES paper shows some live patching fault scenarios can cause momentary current flow of several amps, which can damage or destroy preamp input circuitry. OTOH reports do not suggest this happens a lot, though ignorance of the potential problem would contribute to a lack of understanding with regards to when or why equipment was damaged. |
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Post by jimwilliams on Dec 10, 2016 10:51:26 GMT -6
Try patching the phantom mics through the bay in the dark, the sparks are impressive. That ought to tell you it's a bad idea. Besides, don't you have enough contact corrosion already without trying to shove 5 mv though it?
Give mics a chance.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 10, 2016 10:58:07 GMT -6
Guess I'll have to just get two more dedicated Mic pres
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 10, 2016 12:58:18 GMT -6
I blew up an RCA 77DX with a double-plug patch bay! Older ribbons from broadcast stations often also have a grounded center-tap connection which phantom causes death to. This was all explained in the original instructions for Neumann phantom power supplies that almost nobody has ever read.
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Post by EmRR on Dec 10, 2016 14:07:45 GMT -6
Yeah, those center tap grounded old mics are an invitation to disaster, bay or no.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Dec 10, 2016 15:58:42 GMT -6
Why not just get in the habit of using Tube mics that don't care if phantom power is applied to their power supply?
Or just get in the habit of always turning phantom power off when you're done in the studio?
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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 10, 2016 16:06:11 GMT -6
Guess I'll have to just get two more dedicated Mic pres You won't have any problems if you just remember to always patch before turning on phantom, and turn off phantom before un-patching. People have been doing this for 30 years+. I don't really understand what the problem is. |
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