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Post by Quint on Dec 10, 2016 17:15:06 GMT -6
Why not just get in the habit of using Tube mics that don't care if phantom power is applied to their power supply? Or just get in the habit of always turning phantom power off when you're done in the studio? A similar solution of mine has been to use an external phantom power supply like the Audio Technica CP8506 And NEVER use phantom power on my preamps. I even considered going so far as to completely disable the phantom power on all of my preamps. Patch away at will....
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 10, 2016 18:09:29 GMT -6
Why not just get in the habit of using Tube mics that don't care if phantom power is applied to their power supply? Or just get in the habit of always turning phantom power off when you're done in the studio? A similar solution of mine has been to use an external phantom power supply like the Audio Technica CP8506 And NEVER use phantom power on my preamps. I even considered going so far as to completely disable the phantom power on all of my preamps. Patch away at will.... Well, some people need to run several phantom powered mics at once sometimes... Really, I don't see what the big deal is - just use standard XLR wall panels - or XLR panels in the rack, if you will. No big deal. And they'll have the right connectors for you mic cables. I mean really, running mic connections through a 1/4" or tt patchbay is really silly, and I don't care what SSL might think about it. You also really don't want a common ground in your patchbays, it's an invitation for ground loops. An exception might be bays installed in the console if the console is the center point of a star ground system.
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Post by Quint on Dec 10, 2016 18:14:04 GMT -6
A similar solution of mine has been to use an external phantom power supply like the Audio Technica CP8506 And NEVER use phantom power on my preamps. I even considered going so far as to completely disable the phantom power on all of my preamps. Patch away at will.... Well, some people need to run sweveral phantom powered mics at once sometimes... I know. The power supply I mentioned powers four mics. Or get two to power eight mics. And to be clear, I don't like running phantom power through a patchbay either. However, if you never use the phantom power on your preamps, it sort of becomes a moot point, hence my exclusive use of external phantom power supplies. An xlr bay is the most "correct" way to address this I suppose but there is more than one way to skin a cat. And my patchbays are completely isolated. No common grounds at all.
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Post by guitfiddler on Dec 10, 2016 18:18:17 GMT -6
Guess I'll have to just get two more dedicated Mic pres Can I suggest a nice pair? RTZ
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 10, 2016 18:22:27 GMT -6
Yeah they're great
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Post by rocinante on Dec 11, 2016 9:19:27 GMT -6
I get both sides of the argument and have seen both sides but why not just use a dedicated xlr patchbay to the mic inputs and send the outs to the patchbay with all the other gear? Its how I have it. I cant envision that many cases where I need to go into the mic line of a mic pre. Line? Sure. I dont know why but options are options. My xlr patchbay is located on my mic pre rack. Its outs go into the patchbays that have my converters and console in/outs. You can buy one from ebay for like $50-$75. You can diy one using the case of an alesis 3630 (cause thats the best use of a 3630 - lol) for $20 (add another $10-15 for 1" stepped drill bit or greenlee punch). The only phantom ribbon problem I have is the xmas gifts I wrapped for my dead aunt. What to do with the gifts now? Rewrap em? Will she be pissed? Bury them? Leave them at her tombstone? I dont need a poltergeist right now especially considering the political climate in the US.
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Post by EmRR on Dec 11, 2016 11:18:59 GMT -6
Here it's XLR bay from live room XLR panel, XLR bay to some pre's, others are direct patch.
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Post by jazznoise on Dec 11, 2016 20:13:20 GMT -6
So have we all agreed that hot plugging is bad?
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Post by jimwilliams on Dec 12, 2016 10:34:29 GMT -6
Guess I'll have to just get two more dedicated Mic pres You won't have any problems if you just remember to always patch before turning on phantom, and turn off phantom before un-patching. People have been doing this for 30 years+. I don't really understand what the problem is. Contact corrosion is the problem. Ever get the crunchies with a patch bay before? That happens with 1.23 volt line level gear. Now try and shove 5~10 mv mic levels through that crap, you get more THD than you would like.
Even hardwired bypass switches show significant THD with my AP analyzer. That's on line level gear. I stopped doing mic line patch bays back in 1983 because of al those problems.
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Post by svart on Dec 12, 2016 12:43:42 GMT -6
So have we all agreed that hot plugging is bad? Nope. I guess all those large console manufacturers and some of the largest and most well-known studios in the world are all doing it wrong by allowing hot plugging in their patch bays. Most phantom supplies have limiting resistors that can take the surge from hot plugging. However, that's not the same as accidentally half-inserting your plug and grounding out the phantom supply though. You'll certainly have a burnt resistor from that.
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Post by jimwilliams on Dec 12, 2016 13:44:49 GMT -6
Convienience has always "Trump-ed" audio quality. That's where normalling came from. Which adds another road block to this concept: Your normal points are also dirty and corroded. Cleaning them is more difficult than the TRS contacts as they are hidden. Even the Charlie Bolis burnishing/cleaning tools have a very hard time with normal points.
Like many, I got tired of that routine. Mic lines were fed to the XLR wall panels, XLR wall panels from the CR side fed the mic preamp XLR's directly, never a problem with that except for lazy-@ss engineers with fat butts that never wanted to leave the chair.
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Post by wiz on Dec 12, 2016 14:26:15 GMT -6
Convienience has always "Trump-ed" audio quality. That's where normalling came from. Which adds another road block to this concept: Your normal points are also dirty and corroded. Cleaning them is more difficult than the TRS contacts as they are hidden. Even the Charlie Bolis burnishing/cleaning tools have a very hard time with normal points. Like many, I got tired of that routine. Mic lines were fed to the XLR wall panels, XLR wall panels from the CR side fed the mic preamp XLR's directly, never a problem with that except for lazy-@ss engineers with fat butts that never wanted to leave the chair. Hey Jim do you use patchy(s) or do you insert the comps you have directly into the Delta? I am staring at mine... wondering............ cheers Wiz
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 12, 2016 15:21:17 GMT -6
Audio snakes and patch bays have always been the weakest point in studios. There hasn't really been a competent console design since the late 1960s.
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Post by Ward on Dec 13, 2016 10:04:36 GMT -6
Guess I'll have to just get two more dedicated Mic pres I think you should get a Helios 69
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Post by EmRR on Dec 13, 2016 10:38:14 GMT -6
Though it's funny the possible solution is more preamps at higher cost versus a proper XLR bay or wall panel at lower cost. : ) GAS, and only sexy GAS.
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Post by jimwilliams on Dec 13, 2016 10:54:03 GMT -6
Convienience has always "Trump-ed" audio quality. That's where normalling came from. Which adds another road block to this concept: Your normal points are also dirty and corroded. Cleaning them is more difficult than the TRS contacts as they are hidden. Even the Charlie Bolis burnishing/cleaning tools have a very hard time with normal points. Like many, I got tired of that routine. Mic lines were fed to the XLR wall panels, XLR wall panels from the CR side fed the mic preamp XLR's directly, never a problem with that except for lazy-@ss engineers with fat butts that never wanted to leave the chair. Hey Jim do you use patchy(s) or do you insert the comps you have directly into the Delta? I am staring at mine... wondering............ cheers Wiz The rear of the Delta IS my patch bay. No need to double up on those contacts. In a perfect world everything would be hard soldered.
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Post by drbill on Dec 13, 2016 12:32:52 GMT -6
Well, in MY perfect world, everything would be wireless... But that's not going to happen. And neither is hard soldering everything. My hard soldered bays were one of the worst things I ever did. Gold plated Elco's and Gold plated XLR's everywhere for me now..... Patch bays are not gold plated, but I stick with good TT bays like ADC, Switchcraft, etc., and Mogami patch cables. No problems, no worries, and it's a very rare occurrence to even have to reseat a patch cable for a bad connection.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 13, 2016 17:42:42 GMT -6
Guess I'll have to just get two more dedicated Mic pres You won't have any problems if you just remember to always patch before turning on phantom, and turn off phantom before un-patching. People have been doing this for 30 years+. I don't really understand what the problem is. I assume you don't own any vintage RCAs or other equally old ribbons?
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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 13, 2016 22:41:12 GMT -6
You won't have any problems if you just remember to always patch before turning on phantom, and turn off phantom before un-patching. People have been doing this for 30 years+. I don't really understand what the problem is. I assume you don't own any vintage RCAs or other equally old ribbons? 2x rca77dx 2x rca44 3x STC 4038 No problems for 10 years except for when somebody decided to put a 4038 a little too close to a kick drum. To be honest it sounded REALLY good until it didn't hah He paid for the re-ribbon on that one.
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Post by EmRR on Dec 13, 2016 22:54:46 GMT -6
I had a Beyer M160 taken out by phantom once.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 13, 2016 23:06:41 GMT -6
I had a Beyer M160 taken out by phantom once. You didn't happen to sell it to me on ebay for $200 last year did you? Haha Took beyer something like 4 months to get it back to me but I got a basically brand new mic for less than half price. Not bad!!
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Post by EmRR on Dec 13, 2016 23:08:41 GMT -6
No, this was 1998ish, it was basically new and an assistant hot-patched it. They traded me a new one since it was under warranty.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 13, 2016 23:13:52 GMT -6
I assume you don't own any vintage RCAs or other equally old ribbons? 2x rca77dx 2x rca44 3x STC 4038 No problems for 10 years except for when somebody decided to put a 4038 a little too close to a kick drum. To be honest it sounded REALLY good until it didn't hah He paid for the re-ribbon on that one. Fooled by that infamous Ken Scott article? If the RCAs are stock they won't tolerate phantom. Center tapped transformer.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 13, 2016 23:32:04 GMT -6
2x rca77dx 2x rca44 3x STC 4038 No problems for 10 years except for when somebody decided to put a 4038 a little too close to a kick drum. To be honest it sounded REALLY good until it didn't hah He paid for the re-ribbon on that one. Fooled by that infamous Ken Scott article? If the RCAs are stock they won't tolerate phantom. Center tapped transformer. I don't know that Ken Scott article - I'll have to look it up The engineer is capable of getting some of the best drum sounds I ( and probably most people here) have heard in about 10 mins. Really fabulous ears and has great gear. He was going for a different sound on a weird 18" bass drum at that point. Like I said - it sounded really really great. Until.... Poof I'm assuming the RCA's have had work done to them. Either way - no hot patching going on here...
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 14, 2016 5:12:27 GMT -6
Fooled by that infamous Ken Scott article? If the RCAs are stock they won't tolerate phantom. Center tapped transformer. I don't know that Ken Scott article - I'll have to look it up The engineer is capable of getting some of the best drum sounds I ( and probably most people here) have heard in about 10 mins. Really fabulous ears and has great gear. He was going for a different sound on a weird 18" bass drum at that point. Like I said - it sounded really really great. Until.... Poof I'm assuming the RCA's have had work done to them. Either way - no hot patching going on here... In his autobiography Ken Scott expresdses remorse about causing people to blow out ribbons in their 4038s due to his pranking an interviewer.
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