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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 14, 2016 11:03:29 GMT -6
A LOT of mix and RE-P interviews were pranked which led to a great deal of mythology about how things should be done.
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Post by Ward on Dec 14, 2016 12:26:39 GMT -6
A LOT of mix and RE-P interviews were pranked which led to a great deal of mythology about how things should be done. I wish there were more pranking still going on, as a tool to separate the chaff from the hay.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,011
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Post by ericn on Dec 14, 2016 12:57:22 GMT -6
A LOT of mix and RE-P interviews were pranked which led to a great deal of mythology about how things should be done. It got serious when interviews became more about pimping gear and new records and less about anything real.
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Post by wiz on Dec 14, 2016 15:34:27 GMT -6
A LOT of mix and RE-P interviews were pranked which led to a great deal of mythology about how things should be done. I wish there were more pranking still going on, as a tool to separate the chaff from the hay. Pull my finger..... cheers Wiz
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Post by EmRR on Dec 14, 2016 15:58:05 GMT -6
the wheat IS separated from the chaff, there's just so much of both you can't get through it all. Those sorts of interviews were done amongst engineers of a much higher level in a much more rarified atmosphere. Today we can find interviews of my neighbors dog if we want.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 14, 2016 16:14:03 GMT -6
A LOT of mix and RE-P interviews were pranked which led to a great deal of mythology about how things should be done. I wish there were more pranking still going on, as a tool to separate the chaff from the hay. What makes you think there isn't? I never believe what I read anymore unless it's collaborated by somebody I know, either in person or on the internet as a person with a verifiable identity - and I never put any stock in stuff like yoo-toob vids, either.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 14, 2016 16:15:33 GMT -6
the wheat IS separated from the chaff, there's just so much of both you can't get through it all. Those sorts of interviews were done amongst engineers of a much higher level in a much more rarified atmosphere. Today we can find interviews of my neighbors dog if we want. So Fido, what do you think of "quantum"?
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,011
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Post by ericn on Dec 14, 2016 17:43:44 GMT -6
I wish there were more pranking still going on, as a tool to separate the chaff from the hay. What makes you think there isn't? I never believe what I read anymore unless it's collaborated by somebody I know, either in person or on the internet as a person with a verifiable identity - and I never put any stock in stuff like yoo-toob vids, either. It's funny how many times I have read.... was used to record..., and I know they are saying they used what ever, even though I was there and what ever being plugged wasn't plugged in , but it all about an endorsement or " dude I don't remember & we like the guys at..." Or I read a story about someone's research and purchase in the latest issue of some mag & " cry Bullshit ! they gave it to you for a blurb in adds and a plug in interviews like this ! " The other thing I have learned having spent way to much of my life in the media for non audio reasons, even the best get 50% of it wrong! The hard part is figuring out what's the stuff they got right!
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 14, 2016 17:48:32 GMT -6
I saw so many articles where somebody I know described something that I know they wouldn't do.
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Post by jazznoise on Dec 14, 2016 20:22:45 GMT -6
Nope. I guess all those large console manufacturers and some of the largest and most well-known studios in the world are all doing it wrong by allowing hot plugging in their patch bays. Most phantom supplies have limiting resistors that can take the surge from hot plugging. However, that's not the same as accidentally half-inserting your plug and grounding out the phantom supply though. You'll certainly have a burnt resistor from that. I meant more for the mics - that moment where the P48 isn't balanced on a dynamic or a ribbon forces a DC current or at least a current spike across the magnet which will cause an excursion. Not good. Wouldn't cry over it happening to a 57, but even my cheap ribbons don't deserve that kind of treatment.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 15, 2016 4:01:12 GMT -6
And yes, any console manufacturer who has hot plugging phantom set up through any sort of phone plug patch bay definitely got it wrong. I imagine that at least some of them know this very well, but subscribe to the idea that "the customer is always right (even when he demonstrably isn't)" to sell more product.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 15, 2016 8:12:21 GMT -6
Typically the blind have been following the blind. Back in the day consoles were assembled in the studio shop or by a contractor according to what the people using the console wanted. Store-bought consoles began with Tascam! MCI was the first "pro" store-bought console and SSL was just an MCI without as much headroom and without all of the cold solder joints. It had automation that actually worked so people put up with its inferior sound quality.
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Post by Ward on Dec 15, 2016 8:13:07 GMT -6
the wheat IS separated from the chaff, there's just so much of both you can't get through it all. Those sorts of interviews were done amongst engineers of a much higher level in a much more rarified atmosphere. Today we can find interviews of my neighbors dog if we want. Yeah, sorry about the difference in expressions or figures of speech. I have owned and spent a lot of time with horses and on the floor of the stables, you often find HAY not wheat... and often the floor also has chaff and sawdust on it to soak up 'stuff'... and the hay gets mixed in with it, which of course is where THAT particular expression comes from. But finding the difference might be like finding a needle in a wheat stack.
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Post by jimwilliams on Dec 15, 2016 10:05:19 GMT -6
When I did product reviews for the extinct REP magazine I used my Audio Precision analyzer to back up my BS. Yes, that did upset a few manufacturers, but that's the way it goes when facts are presented.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Dec 15, 2016 10:29:10 GMT -6
If hot-plugging is so bad, why does the TRS or TS connector still exist? Surely engineering heads would have figured out a better, safer connector that doesn't connect the HOT side first...
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 15, 2016 10:44:37 GMT -6
If hot-plugging is so bad, why does the TRS or TS connector still exist? Surely engineering heads would have figured out a better, safer connector that doesn't connect the HOT side first... It's fine as long as you don't run power through it. And there are safer connectors - xlr for one, which connect ground first, it's just that they're not really normal-friendly. And they tend to be bulky. Mini-xlrs are delicate and would not be easy to use in a patchbay. The thing is, there's no reason except laziness to run phantom through a phone plug patchbay.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 15, 2016 11:31:54 GMT -6
If hot-plugging is so bad, why does the TRS or TS connector still exist? Surely engineering heads would have figured out a better, safer connector that doesn't connect the HOT side first... It's fine as long as you don't run power through it. And there are safer connectors - xlr for one, which connect ground first, it's just that they're not really normal-friendly. And they tend to be bulky. Mini-xlrs are delicate and would not be easy to use in a patchbay. The thing is, there's no reason except laziness to run phantom through a phone plug patchbay. What is the alternative in large studios that are set up this way? I've been working in this method for about 10 years and havent had a detrimental problem. Yes, if you patch while phantom is on, it has the capability of blowing stuff up. But, who patches with phantom on? What is the console you have that you made reference to earlier that didn't come with a patchbay setup with mic lines?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 15, 2016 11:40:01 GMT -6
All of the decent studios that I've worked in had the studio tie lines and preamps available at the TT patchbays. I've never run into an isuse. If you're hot plugging and blowing up your ribbon mics, perhaps you should be more careful.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Dec 15, 2016 11:40:32 GMT -6
Why wasn't the trs jack designed so that the tip is cold and the sleeve is hot?
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Post by EmRR on Dec 15, 2016 12:04:24 GMT -6
Blame Ma Bell. It's her fault. Plus, the sleeve surrounds the +/- because it's the shield. Can't be any other way. Anyway, the problem is the user, not the tool.
The user who hot plugs is usually the new assistant or client who knows just enough to be dangerous, who decides to help.
If anyone bothered to read the AES paper, the danger is present on the preamp side too. That's a relatively new paper, this is stuff that generally works ok enough that the research really hasn't been done.
I agree studios are set up that way not because it's right, but because the (ignorant) customer demanded it, and got what they wanted, then it became a standard. Most other studios I've worked in have had console preamps wired directly to XLR wall panels in the live rooms.
You can go back to Ocean Way doing a patchbay redesign 15-20 years ago, and deciding XLR's were significantly better than any other connector for integrity and sound. Based on measurements, as Jimwilliams mentioned above. They went with all XLR at the time. I've no idea if that bay still exists today.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 15, 2016 13:32:44 GMT -6
It's fine as long as you don't run power through it. And there are safer connectors - xlr for one, which connect ground first, it's just that they're not really normal-friendly. And they tend to be bulky. Mini-xlrs are delicate and would not be easy to use in a patchbay. The thing is, there's no reason except laziness to run phantom through a phone plug patchbay. What is the alternative in large studios that are set up this way? I've been working in this method for about 10 years and havent had a detrimental problem. Yes, if you patch while phantom is on, it has the capability of blowing stuff up. But, who patches with phantom on? What is the console you have that you made reference to earlier that didn't come with a patchbay setup with mic lines? What is the altertnative? That's easy - and has already been mentioned several times in the thread - XLR wall panels (all large studios have them that I've seen) or XLR patch bay in the rack. IMO the only reason you don't see them in consoles is the amount of real estate they'd occupy on the control surface and perhaps the feeling that having XLRs duplicated on the front and back of the console is redundant. What console do I have? A 32 channel Soundcrap DC2020 with the integrated patchbay option. Mid '90s, cost in the neighborhood of 80 grand new, give or take. Was the flagship of their studio line. Inline topography, flying faders and mute automation (which I've never actually used.) Cost me 6 Gs. Has patch points for damn near everything EXCEPT mic inputs. All the I/O except mic ins is on EDACs. It DOES have tie lines, but I don't believe that there's phantom on them - maybe I should check to be sure. I'm pretty certain there's nothing about that in the manual. It's no API, but I couldn't afford one of those these days. Wish I'd had the money when I could have picked one up for around 10 grand back in '78-'79.... EDIT: I actually use the mic preamps on the console very rarely these days - only when I need more than 8 simultaneous inputs, as normally I use the two 4 channel CRS-IND 4412 outboard preamps that are built around Carl Johnson's reworking of the high voltage discrete op-amps in a Quad-Eight console. Those come into the console on the lines out to the Studer.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 6, 2017 11:02:06 GMT -6
Seems like the place to put this pic. Decided to replace the XLR's and mic wire between the live room wall panel and the control room patch panel, as it was probably approaching 30 years old, with connectors starting to show significant blackening and wear. I left the old shells in place on the panels and am swapping the inserts. Wire that the previous occupants put in is some unlabeled mystery stuff, I've been using it nearly 20 years now. Went with some Canare 110 ohm wire. Not saying' I'll hear a difference. But maybe. Another hour later today and it'll be installed, other ends are stripped and tinned. The loom did get wire tie groupings of four for a bit of strain relief after this pic was taken.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 6, 2017 11:05:33 GMT -6
John Eppstein: Founder of Ribbon Protectors of America
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Post by EmRR on Jan 6, 2017 11:26:55 GMT -6
Not just about ribbons. Preamps too.
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Post by jazznoise on Jan 6, 2017 12:22:42 GMT -6
Excellent work EmRR, not to be sniffed at in the least. My rig has XLR 12 XLR ins on the front and 6 on the back, which is a pain I've decided I'm no longer enduring. Going to be getting a 1U panel of aluminium and making a daisy chain from the rear to the front.
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