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Post by wiz on Dec 8, 2016 15:06:59 GMT -6
Well, some people doing large recording projects don't use quantize panels and hit detection at all. But, see what I mean--it didn't change for the negative. I wish they'd implement my "let me play in free time, detect my tempo, and create a map that's not functionally retarded automagically have the integrated virtual drummer play along". That, I would buy. But, no app seems to want to implement those things. I mean, I can dream up apps--I wish they'd support multitouch that's been available at OS level since Win. With 8 they made the entire everything in GUI resizable for no real reason OTHER than being able to set yourself up to use a Surface type unit....I mean, I can dream up stuff that would be useful all day, if they don't implement it I'll be pissed at them? I've been doing this too long for that. You'd be in a constant state of pissed off. I feel you on waking up in a dystopian shithole...but, for different reasons. ....sorry you feel that way. I do this all the time... 8P You can do it with logic.. but if you use the FREE app called music memos that apple put out.. yes thats right FREE... 8) I sit with my guitar and my iPhone...I hit record on MUSIC MEMOS and I play the song on acoustic. Then I send it to the cloud. Then I open Logic on my iMac and create a project and import that MUSIC MEMO i just put in the cloud. Then I enable FLEX TIME SLICING on the track, and then a open the TEMPO TRACK and flatten out the tempo markers it has created, it creates markers on 1/4 notes... you could skip this step if you wanted to keep the free time you just played. Then using the ARRANGEMENT MARKERS in LOGIC I create the song arrangement that I want. Easy as pie. This usually means I can be experimental with arrangement really early on quickly.. super important. That whole process takes 15 minutes from start to finish. Biggest productive jump I have made in the last 25 years... the FREE apple MUSIC MEMOS. You can also do this with just logic.. but its easier for me using the app.. and it means where ever I am with a guitar and my iPhone I can put an idea down. OH ... I forgot to mention, the MUSIC MEMOS app does drums and bass if you want it as well.. and all that imports into LOGIC PRO... as a one man writing and playing scenario.. its near perfect popmann if you want I can give you a call to chat about it.. rather than type out ... cheers Wiz
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Post by lpedrum on Dec 8, 2016 16:25:28 GMT -6
I have Cubase 8 and will upgrade to 9 now. As someone who never sprang for a high priced EQ plugin, the updated one in 9 appears to be a major upgrade over the old stock Cubase EQ. I don't get the anti Cubase rant. I've been using it on Mac and PC since version 4 and it's a very important piece of gear to my career.
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Post by popmann on Dec 8, 2016 16:54:13 GMT -6
Might take you up on that at some point, wiz....I see they've put the autodrummer into Garageband10, too....
The quarter note thing is troubling....as I'm not going to have it "flatten" anything--that would sorta defeat my purpose in playing it free time....but, still...I really wanted to play around when I heard it had a "follow" that you could effectively side chain from an audio track....really going where virtual drumming needs to go--where it reacts to what you play....not the opposite.
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Cubase 9
Dec 8, 2016 17:23:15 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by wiz on Dec 8, 2016 17:23:15 GMT -6
Might take you up on that at some point, wiz....I see they've put the autodrummer into Garageband10, too.... The quarter note thing is troubling....as I'm not going to have it "flatten" anything--that would sorta defeat my purpose in playing it free time....but, still...I really wanted to play around when I heard it had a "follow" that you could effectively side chain from an audio track....really going where virtual drumming needs to go--where it reacts to what you play....not the opposite. Actually the quarter note thing is genius. It creates a great accurate tempo map. You don't have to flatten it. It's brilliant ... Once you use it it will be clear. Cheers Wiz
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 8, 2016 19:49:26 GMT -6
So you guys want to play out of time?
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Post by popmann on Dec 8, 2016 22:05:24 GMT -6
If you wanna call it that....but, Wiz isn't actually doing that. He's playing without a click and then having it time stretch him into "computer time". I'm redefining the where the click is. Want a click? I can turn on on for you....it clicks right along with me when I'm done.
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Post by wiz on Dec 8, 2016 22:13:46 GMT -6
If you wanna call it that....but, Wiz isn't actually doing that. He's playing without a click and then having it time stretch him into "computer time". I'm redefining the where the click is. Want a click? I can turn on on for you....it clicks right along with me when I'm done. Remember this is my scratch arrangement track. It's just a guide. it immediately gets replaced . I track drums against it, then bass, then I replace that guitar part. cheers Wiz
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Post by popmann on Dec 8, 2016 23:56:31 GMT -6
Yeah--me too, only without the "flattening". I don't KEEP the original track. Hell--often I'm playing it kind of....well, an intentionally overly funky feeling--as best I can represent the desired groove on a guitar....not playing what I would ever play as the guitar part....
You know--when I map it out, there's usually a span of a solid 3-4bpm throughout. Max. I mean now....being an old as fuck musician....but, back in the day, for perspective I recognized this was "the issue" with drum machines which is why at like I dunno 17 or 18 I moved to Performer--it was the ONLY MIDI sequencer that could linearly map tempo to a multitrack's SMPTE reference. ONLY one....decision made. Not like today, where you can kinda coax them all into it, albeit various ways. I mean immature stuff like Reaper or something doesn't....but, the big ones--Cubase, Logic, Sonar, DP (now dual platform, yo!)...they'll all do it.
I'm amazed at the crazy "default" that everyone uses a click now. I never saw that growing up...unless it was stylistically appropriate to use a drum machine, which is obviously the same CompuTempo. But, a real drummer playing to a click? How shitty IS the band? And now people play to a click SO THAT they can further quantize? Even though the ability is right there to bend the bar lines around the music that was played sans click?
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Post by wiz on Dec 9, 2016 0:19:06 GMT -6
Yeah--me too, only without the "flattening". I don't KEEP the original track. Hell--often I'm playing it kind of....well, an intentionally overly funky feeling--as best I can represent the desired groove on a guitar....not playing what I would ever play as the guitar part.... You know--when I map it out, there's usually a span of a solid 3-4bpm throughout. Max. I mean now....being an old as fuck musician....but, back in the day, for perspective I recognized this was "the issue" with drum machines which is why at like I dunno 17 or 18 I moved to Performer--it was the ONLY MIDI sequencer that could linearly map tempo to a multitrack's SMPTE reference. ONLY one....decision made. Not like today, where you can kinda coax them all into it, albeit various ways. I mean immature stuff like Reaper or something doesn't....but, the big ones--Cubase, Logic, Sonar, DP (now dual platform, yo!)...they'll all do it. I'm amazed at the crazy "default" that everyone uses a click now. I never saw that growing up...unless it was stylistically appropriate to use a drum machine, which is obviously the same CompuTempo. But, a real drummer playing to a click? How shitty IS the band? And now people play to a click SO THAT they can further quantize? Even though the ability is right there to bend the bar lines around the music that was played sans click? I hear ya... I do , and nothing I write is intended to be contrary... I been doing this a long time too.... right back to the mid 80s.... I have spent thousands of hours playing around with midi, fake drums... I smiled the other day when you mentioned the D4... a nostalgic smile... I had one, built a midi drum kit out of it.. Piezo triggers and remo practice pads... in some ways it was better than whats available today for 10 grand.. and in a lot of ways... not 8) I also hear you when you say you pick one drum kit. I have experimented a lot with, trying to get "fake drums" to sound like real drums, in the context of a song/performance.... and trying to make one guy.... sound like a band. I have owned most of the top of the line drum software packages and I think I know most of the tricks to getting fake drums, to sound real. Its painful.. and certainly not fun.. but it is better now than it ever was. The "drummer" in Logic.. is nothing short of amazing what it can do... but I also hear you when you talk about "arranger" keyboards.. those all in one ecosystems work really well, within the limitations of what they are. Hell, I remember getting a sound font library on the EMU card to sound absolutely killer, in the context of a song...I will see If I can find it... Whats my point... dunno... 8) After doing all that... including making albums with real drums, virtual drums, no drums, drummers in the same room, drummers on the other side of the planet, using snail mail and dial up....8) (Thats something I don't want to do again) In the end...I learned to play and record drums myself, to the standard you hear on the music I post up here. Which is not going to spin a lot of peoples wheels.... but it makes me happy.... and thats where I have ended up all these years later.... I tried to free-er tempo things.. and it can work really great.... even a 2bpm shift in a chorus can make a difference... but for me nowadays... its not worth the trouble.. there are such larger fish to fry for me.... I feel I have made my bones with midi and real drums.... cheers Wiz
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Post by popmann on Dec 9, 2016 9:43:38 GMT -6
The Kronos isn't an arranger board. FWIW. It just has a drum machine built in. Korg makes some...PA something or other....I mean, it's a workstation--does 24/48 audio along side the midi sequencing....but, not like their autoarranger boards. Soundfont....Sonic Implants BlueJay drums? I used that in Gigastudio for a period. But, yes--working this way adds a big load and destructive decision making at the beginning of the process. You know--like used to happen...."was that the take?" Only now, with a DAW doing the consolidated work, it's less so because you can still BE non linear in terms of maybe the second verse the tempo stumbled a little too much, so what? Copy paste the entire first verse of tempo mapping. Or if I fuck up, it's usually more like one measure in the tune I dragged....once the tempo is mapped, and you get ot dragging measure, change it. The audio bends to fixing it. If there are side effects--doesn't matter, since this is a scratch track to build the drums with anyway.
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Post by swurveman on Dec 9, 2016 12:44:17 GMT -6
Might take you up on that at some point, wiz....I see they've put the autodrummer into Garageband10, too.... The quarter note thing is troubling....as I'm not going to have it "flatten" anything--that would sorta defeat my purpose in playing it free time....but, still...I really wanted to play around when I heard it had a "follow" that you could effectively side chain from an audio track....really going where virtual drumming needs to go--where it reacts to what you play....not the opposite. Actually the quarter note thing is genius. It creates a great accurate tempo map. You don't have to flatten it. It's brilliant ... Once you use it it will be clear. Cheers Wiz Couldn't you also do the tempo map after recording to a click and/or drum guide track? Or, do you just like the freedom of not having any timing guides?
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Post by popmann on Dec 9, 2016 12:49:54 GMT -6
Of course you can....but, why? If you played to a click, you are following the click's map. All you would have to do, worst case is find the "1".
Yes--I like the freedom of having my "timing guide" be my heartbeat and grey matter.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2016 13:37:50 GMT -6
6) Inexplicably poor performance on Mac OS, I can get logic to record an entire session off the floor but somedays Cubase can't handle a single audio track regardless of settings. Just curious: What audio interface are you using? Antelope Zen, computer is a mid 2012 MBP with 16GB of Ram, upgraded the internal drive to a 500GB SSD. i5 processor is really the only thing on it that I could see holding me back. It's weird because if I track into logic I can do so with any sort of hiccups but Cubase drops out
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2016 13:53:05 GMT -6
I'm going to guess there's a few guys in here who are completely ignorant to the radio ready polish my customer's expect from a recording and that's fine. If you are doing drum quantizing however, I would not recommend doing that by hand in Cubase, I used to do that before 6 and it was a huge drain on my time and productivity. A good drummer I can quantize to the nearest 1/8th and see all the fills that need to be gone over, the whole thing takes me about two minutes. When I used to do large album projects without the quantize panel I would budget an extra day for editing drum takes. If you haven't looked at it and are doing this kind of work you should take a look.
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Post by swurveman on Dec 9, 2016 15:05:35 GMT -6
Just curious: What audio interface are you using? Antelope Zen, computer is a mid 2012 MBP with 16GB of Ram, upgraded the internal drive to a 500GB SSD. i5 processor is really the only thing on it that I could see holding me back. It's weird because if I track into logic I can do so with any sort of hiccups but Cubase drops out I would contact Steinberg if for some reason you prefer mixing in Cubase. It's unacceptable imo that you're having that kind of trouble tracking. FYI: Cubase was weird with my Graphics Card. I was having all kinds of problems with mixdowns not completing and other spiking while my i7 CPU was hardly being taxed. When I updated my Graphics Card driver- an ATI Ratdeon HD 5450- those problems went away.
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Post by wiz on Dec 9, 2016 17:28:07 GMT -6
Actually the quarter note thing is genius. It creates a great accurate tempo map. You don't have to flatten it. It's brilliant ... Once you use it it will be clear. Cheers Wiz Couldn't you also do the tempo map after recording to a click and/or drum guide track? Or, do you just like the freedom of not having any timing guides? I will try and explain this a bit better. It used to be you really only had two choice. You tracked to a click or you didn't. The hard part was if you wanted to take an existing recording, tracked without a click and add stuff to it.. that needed a timebase... like say , MIDI. Now, in the past I had done all sorts of things... like over dubbing snare hits, using them as a timing reference etc... there were a million things you could try to get something that had no timing reference... a timing reference. The rub was.. it always sounded... off.... never tight. Everything I reference here, is for me... not Steve Gadd OK 8) I just couldnt play tight enough to the original recording.... It always sounded a bit like the band was having an off night.. The band being me overdubbing drums, bass, other guitars etc. A few years back, Logic and other DAWS allowed you to created a TEMPO MAP off of audio . In logic they call it Beatmapping. It consisted of detecting transients in an audio file, and creating TEMPO MAP points to match up. You would do say a Tempo map point on each bar. Or subdivision of a bar if you liked. It took for ever. It also was really easy to screw up, and just sucked the F*#(Ing life out of the creative process... it just blew. It made for a better fun experience and end result, by just tracking to a click. You got there faster. LOGIC MUSIC MEMOS does this TEMPO MAPPING for you. You play your acoustic guitar part with all the feel you want, and it will analyse it in a heartbeat and provide you a tempo map, when you import the MEMO into a LOGIC PROJECT that is accurate to the 1/4 note. This means, you could, if you wish, keep that as your time base, should you so desire.. and it means any MIDI PARTS, or QUANTIZATION you wish to do will be accurate to the 1/4 note... simply amazing. What would take hours.. takes seconds. It does not interfere with my creative process one iota. Now, I find, for me.. that lets say my tempo varies 2-3 bpm over the course of the song... after a shit load of experimenting doing this.. I find the end result better ... to just flatten the tempo... Lets say I was playing between 93 and 96bpm... I might decide 95 is the go... more importantly I might decide 110 is better. This allows me to experiment quickly with the raw idea I had at varying tempos. And with LOGICs superb ARRANGEMENT MARKERS I can cut up the idea I just tracked.... into it's appropriate sections and move the song structure around, tempo etc willy nilly, and just be creative. Its meant freedom when I am creating...I play the original idea in.. and do maybe 2 different bridge Ideas, long chorus, short chorus... then sit there and experiment with tempo and structure whilst singing along with the acoustic guitar part I had recorded. I don't care if its a bit warberly from the timing correction its not going to survive. Then I cut the drums, then the bass, then i put in a guitar part. Then I sing. The whole process has stopped the infinite stopping and starting songs for me.... it allows me to stay in creative mode longer which is awesome and fun cheers Wiz
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Post by wiz on Dec 9, 2016 17:31:46 GMT -6
I meant to add...I did some tests a couple of years back with a song... where I did two versions one timed to absolute and one timed to free.. with much MANUAL editing of the timing to match up.
Everyone, chose the one tracked and timed to click. Without exception, including some of the best recording engineers in Australia, one of the best drummers there is.. and every "normal" person I played it to.
I had been agonising about the "artistry" being lost by being click track guy... after that I didn't worry about it any more.
There is so much more to worry about when you are a one man show, The arrangement , pitch of the vocal, all these things matter more...
Of course, thats just my story, and it will absolutely not resonate with others..
When I track acoustic material without percussion or drums, I do it without a click.. if there are going to be drums, and more importantly IF I AM THE ONE WHO IS GOING TO PLAY ON IT ... there must be click.... I can't produce a professional result without it.
cheers
Wiz
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 9, 2016 20:07:06 GMT -6
I'm going to guess there's a few guys in here who are completely ignorant to the radio ready polish my customer's expect from a recording and that's fine. What the fuck is that supposed to mean?
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Post by popmann on Dec 9, 2016 20:11:59 GMT -6
That he's young. I remember when I knew it all, too. Man....good times....
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 9, 2016 20:50:26 GMT -6
Maybe he can tell us what he has on the radio.
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Post by drsax on Dec 9, 2016 22:46:58 GMT -6
I'm going to guess there's a few guys in here who are completely ignorant to the radio ready polish my customer's expect from a recording and that's fine. If you are doing drum quantizing however, I would not recommend doing that by hand in Cubase, I used to do that before 6 and it was a huge drain on my time and productivity. A good drummer I can quantize to the nearest 1/8th and see all the fills that need to be gone over, the whole thing takes me about two minutes. When I used to do large album projects without the quantize panel I would budget an extra day for editing drum takes. If you haven't looked at it and are doing this kind of work you should take a look. Hmmm... not my experience at all. I suspect there are many cats on this forum who know a lot about making music that is "radio ready." Personally, I have done a fair amount of radio ready music. More than 25 number one hits in Cubase (around 15 of those were #1 on Billboard) and I have not experienced any Major issues with Cubase - whether relating to drum quantizing or otherwise. If you are needing something "radio ready" then you should be prepared to put any time necessary to get it right. Whether that means having a rock solid drummer who can get it right without editing, or whether you need to edit like crazy when a session guy can't lock well enough. To each his own... your list of complaints about Cubase leads me to believe you should use a different DAW that gives you what you want. Enjoy Pro Tools... it works ok here - but I'm not satisfied with it. As for me, I am happy as a pig in mud with Cubase. It's crazy powerful. The new features in version 9 seem very useful to me. And I've tried all the major DAW's.... Cubase is by far my favorite.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 10, 2016 0:37:28 GMT -6
Hey @jordanvoth, you child. I like your work and understand where you're coming from.
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Post by lcr on Dec 10, 2016 7:29:51 GMT -6
I'm not a Cubase user, however I do use the Dunlop 65 Guitar Polish and Cleaner, not sure if it's radio ready..
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Post by popmann on Dec 10, 2016 11:40:36 GMT -6
Dunlop is so yesterday. You need Planet Waves "Shiny and Moist" for Apple Music level polishing.
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Cubase 9
Dec 10, 2016 12:08:11 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by lcr on Dec 10, 2016 12:08:11 GMT -6
Dunlop is so yesterday. You need Planet Waves "Shiny and Moist" for Apple Music level polishing. Thank you for this! That's why all of my mixes sound dated!
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