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Post by BradM on Aug 6, 2017 14:31:15 GMT -6
Woohoo! You're really on it! Somebody should be paying you to review and test gear. Buy a Chroma and we'll call it even? Ha. Brad
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Post by BradM on Aug 6, 2017 14:31:52 GMT -6
Brad, have a look at the relative shapes at lower levels, like +6dB, etc. See if there's a level at which they seem indistinguishable, and if there's a level at which they begin to visually/audibly deviate from one another. Good call. Will do! Thanks, Doug. Brad
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Post by BradM on Aug 6, 2017 14:48:37 GMT -6
So here's the Warm Audio Pultec which is using a Cinemag inductor: These measurements were taken by a friend using Realtime Analyzer software using a MOTU 16A which has a 10k input impedance. Note the flat response (EQ on) shown by the red trace...which seems more rolled-off in the high end than the KT unit. It's down almost 2 dB at 20 kHz. Now I could be wrong, but it looks to me like Behringer cloned the Warm Audio box (a clone of a clone??), which isn't accurate when comparing to the curves of the Analog Allstars unit or the curves in the vintage EQP-1A manual. Very interesting... Brad
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Post by Guitar on Aug 6, 2017 14:57:45 GMT -6
Ooh, spicy. I did think the Warm sounded darker all along. Got my popcorn ready..
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 6, 2017 15:00:02 GMT -6
I'd love to see similar tests done to the Warm. I bet the high Q is done similarly. How much do you want to bet ๐ซ๐I believe warm is more accurate than KT .. I would love to be wrong considering price point ( not that a stereo pair of pultecs is my next buy but still ) call me a fool but I do believe warm does go the extra mile.. like revising their units to include the gain trim pots when they did not have to.. I was just thinking that KT probably opened up a Warm unit and got their inspiration that way rather than by studying the original.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 6, 2017 15:04:16 GMT -6
Damn!
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Post by EmRR on Aug 6, 2017 15:06:06 GMT -6
Brad, have a look at the relative shapes at lower levels, like +6dB, etc. See if there's a level at which they seem indistinguishable, and if there's a level at which they begin to visually/audibly deviate from one another. Good call. Will do! Thanks, Doug. Brad and.....see if you can make them match Q with the bandwidth control, how close it gets, how convoluted a set of knob turns to hit apples/apples, etc.
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Post by BradM on Aug 6, 2017 15:16:23 GMT -6
I was just thinking that KT probably opened up a Warm unit and got their inspiration that way rather than by studying the original. Looks like some old habits are hard to break at Behringer/Music Group... Brad
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Post by jakeharris on Aug 6, 2017 15:29:25 GMT -6
Or... it just means they cut the same corners. Because taking apart and studying your competition, everyone does it.
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Post by rowmat on Aug 6, 2017 15:29:49 GMT -6
I was just thinking that KT probably opened up a Warm unit and got their inspiration that way rather than by studying the original. Looks like some old habits are hard to break at Behringer/Music Group... Brad What old habits? Oh yeah...
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Post by BradM on Aug 6, 2017 15:36:36 GMT -6
If someone ripped off a Behringer product, do you think they would get sued?
Brad
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Post by EmRR on Aug 6, 2017 16:00:48 GMT -6
I gotta also wonder if the off the shelf Cinemag 7 tap inductor is right. There are comments about it being skewed way back when DIY was the only way you'd get a Pultec of your own.
The Audio Maintenance Pultec uses a Carnhill 7 tap inductor. There's a Sowter 7 tap. There's the Vintage Windings version which claims to be the most accurate overall, and is available as a complete LC network package that contains the majority of the EQ circuit, just needing the amp, PSU, pots and switches. When this was all DIY territory a decade ago, a lot of info came out about how to hand wind your own inductors for the job, and a lot of people did just that.
I guess there's about ZERO reason for anyone to buy a Lindell PEX-500 now.....
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Post by ChaseUTB on Aug 7, 2017 11:05:04 GMT -6
How much do you want to bet ๐ซ๐I believe warm is more accurate than KT .. I would love to be wrong considering price point ( not that a stereo pair of pultecs is my next buy but still ) call me a fool but I do believe warm does go the extra mile.. like revising their units to include the gain trim pots when they did not have to.. I was just thinking that KT probably opened up a Warm unit and got their inspiration that way rather than by studying the original. I agree and was trying to be sarcastic but the internet is written text let me try again ... I guarantee the warm and kt are exactly like vintage originals and I guarantee warm went the extra mile ๐๐๐๐
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 7, 2017 11:25:43 GMT -6
The Warm EQP-1A nails the low end, it seems to help almost everything sent to it, the highs work fine, I just don't use them much and didn't hear anything special there, but didn't hear anything wrong either.
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Post by swurveman on Aug 7, 2017 13:40:30 GMT -6
I gotta also wonder if the off the shelf Cinemag 7 tap inductor is right. There are comments about it being skewed way back when DIY was the only way you'd get a Pultec of your own. The Audio Maintenance Pultec uses a Carnhill 7 tap inductor. There's a Sowter 7 tap. There's the Vintage Windings version which claims to be the most accurate overall, and is available as a complete LC network package that contains the majority of the EQ circuit, just needing the amp, PSU, pots and switches. When this was all DIY territory a decade ago, a lot of info came out about how to hand wind your own inductors for the job, and a lot of people did just that. I don't know much about measurements, but found this on the Vintage Windings site
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Post by Guitar on Aug 7, 2017 14:47:32 GMT -6
Cool site/product! He refers to the original Pultec inductors being 5-taps I quote, "Some customers who don't mind searching for old school capacitors want a coil wound to the actual Pultec 5 tap single toroid specifications. Here they are:
32.0 mH 51.1 mH 84.3 mH 100.2 mH 150.5 mH"
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Post by EmRR on Aug 7, 2017 15:15:57 GMT -6
Note what I've been calling 7 taps is 6 inductances, the 7th tap being the '0' connection. If you go with one of the earlier designs with fewer taps, you limit the ability to get reasonably similar shapes out of multiple frequencies.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 14, 2017 12:34:20 GMT -6
FWIW, I'm out on these. Had 3 come in, spent a little time with them, just sold the 3rd one. Not quite what I was hoping for.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 14, 2017 15:52:34 GMT -6
FWIW, I'm out on these. Had 3 come in, spent a little time with them, just sold the 3rd one. Not quite what I was hoping for. We have to ask: What were you hoping for that wasn't present? What, if any, other Pultec type EQ are you holding as a personal benchmark?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 14, 2017 17:16:05 GMT -6
FWIW, I'm out on these. Had 3 come in, spent a little time with them, just sold the 3rd one. Not quite what I was hoping for. We have to ask: ย What were you hoping for that wasn't present? ย What, if any, other Pultec type EQ are you holding as a personal benchmark? ย I just wanted smoother top end. More like a high shelf with a roll off. Not really a peaking top. Sounded a bit phasey for me. I have the DIYRE option too, that I'm not totally sold on either. I previously owned a Summit, which I loved. Top on that, from memory was much smoother.
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 14, 2017 18:10:04 GMT -6
If someone ripped off a Behringer product, do you think they would get sued? Brad Stop it please, or I die laughing.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,939
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Post by ericn on Aug 14, 2017 21:18:42 GMT -6
If someone ripped off a Behringer product, do you think they would get sued? Brad I'll bet yeah they would. When we were at NAMM I was amazed at all the Presonus digital mixer clones and no Behringer/ Midas clones, that tells me the cloners know who would shut them down!
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,939
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Post by ericn on Aug 14, 2017 21:19:35 GMT -6
Looks like some old habits are hard to break at Behringer/Music Group... ย Brad What old habits? Oh yeah... View AttachmentOnly Behring product I own!
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Post by EmRR on Aug 14, 2017 21:33:23 GMT -6
I was amazed at all the Presonus digital mixer clones Ugh, what a horrible thing to clone. Haven't seen one that didn't freeze mid-event! Reboot during a show, that's fun!
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 14, 2017 22:00:14 GMT -6
If someone ripped off a Behringer product, do you think they would get sued? Brad If a Behringer product falls in the forest...does a Chinese worker get his wings?
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