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Post by BradM on Jul 19, 2017 16:36:10 GMT -6
Well, I can't think of a single company that started out as a small boutique operation that got bought out by a manufacturing behemoth where the quality didn't take a nosedive after the takeover. Sometimes it takes a little while. Sometimes it doesn't. The best cases are the rare ones where the new parent decides after a bit of time that the takeover might not have been such a good idea and sells the company on to someone with a more sympathetic attitude. I do recognize that is sometimes the case. But it doesn't have to be that way. You can still manufacture smartly and have a sonically high quality product. Rupert Neve Designs does this effectively. Brad
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 19, 2017 16:55:17 GMT -6
Fairly easy to answer - I'm more inclined to be more interested in a clone made by a smaller company under the supervision/control of one or two designers who take a real interest in making their product as true to the famous original as can possibly be done, rather than a huge manufacturing behemoth owned by a guy with a track record of cranking out cheap copies of anything he thinks will sell a million or two units. It's a quality thing. The presence of a switching power supply is, to me, a red flag. It means he's cutting corners wherever he can. He's certainly not going to spend more money on parts that might be closer to the original if he can get parts that are "just as good" for a lot cheaper since his target market probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference, anyway. Thjey want a "Pultec" style EQ because they're read about it a lot in the gear mags, not because they've ever been in the same room with one, let alone used one - and because they're all looking for a "$300 U47". Uli knows this and capitalizes on it. And his blatant exploitation of the KT name doesn't impress me, it just pisses me off. I will admit that the rock bottom price is tempting, but I can resist that temptation, absent confirmation from one of my short list of experienced people whose taste and advice I trust that the thing really does what made the original famous. And I seriously doubt that's gonna happen I gave up wasting money on wishful thinking and cheap substitutes some years ago. Ended up with too much junk I didn't want to use and would be embarressed to try to sell. Frankly I'm rather surprised that a site where guys like Shannon are celebrated would even be having this discussion. Have you used one of Shannon's mics? Not yet, but I sure am interested. I probbly would have by now if my financial situation hadn't suffered catastrophe during the last year. I haven't been able to make any gear purchases at all except some parts for my console and I really couldn't afford that, I had to put them on a card which I'm paying off slowly over time.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 19, 2017 17:06:12 GMT -6
Well, I can't think of a single company that started out as a small boutique operation that got bought out by a manufacturing behemoth where the quality didn't take a nosedive after the takeover. Sometimes it takes a little while. Sometimes it doesn't. The best cases are the rare ones where the new parent decides after a bit of time that the takeover might not have been such a good idea and sells the company on to someone with a more sympathetic attitude. I do recognize that is sometimes the case. But it doesn't have to be that way. You can still manufacture smartly and have a sonically high quality product. Rupert Neve Designs does this effectively. Brad Well, yes, but that company is owned and run by Rupert Neve, not Uli Behringer.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 19, 2017 17:07:50 GMT -6
I do recognize that is sometimes the case. But it doesn't have to be that way. You can still manufacture smartly and have a sonically high quality product. Rupert Neve Designs does this effectively. Brad Well, yes, but that company is owned and run by Rupert Neve, not Uli Behringer. So let me get this straight, you're not a fan of Uli? Is that right?
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 19, 2017 17:13:12 GMT -6
Well, yes, but that company is owned and run by Rupert Neve, not Uli Behringer. So let me get this straight, you're not a fan of Uli? Is that right? Not much. I don't really have anything against him personally, he seems like a nice enough guy when I've encountered him on the forums, but I don't care for his way of doing business. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt when he bought Midas, KT, etc, but it's looking like he's reverting to type. He sure as hell ain't no Rupert Neve.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 19, 2017 17:20:33 GMT -6
So let me get this straight, you're not a fan of Uli? Is that right? Not much. I don't really have anything against him personally, he seems like a nice enough guy when I've encountered him on the forums, but I don't care for his way of doing business. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt when he bought Midas, KT, etc, but it's looking like he's reverting to type. He sure as hell ain't no Rupert Neve. I was kidding. We got it. Anyway, if you're rooting for the little guy who isn't straight cloning, check out the Locomotive stuff.
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Post by Guitar on Jul 19, 2017 17:29:58 GMT -6
I am curious what makes some 'clones' more acceptable to some people. CAPI vs API, all the 1176, certain ELAM 251's, the Retro Sta Level-- these copies seem to be fairly well received with open minds. Other stuff, like the U47, and apparently the Pultec, people seem to take huge beef with. At least on this website. I'm wondering why some stuff easily gets the nod, and other inspired-by designs don't. I don't think I've heard anyone say, for example, the Warm Audio WA76 is "Not an 1176." That seems like a pretty hard-line judgement, to phrase it that way. Fairly easy to answer - I'm more inclined to be more interested in a clone made by a smaller company under the supervision/control of one or two designers who take a real interest in making their product as true to the famous original as can possibly be done, rather than a huge manufacturing behemoth owned by a guy with a track record of cranking out cheap copies of anything he thinks will sell a million or two units. It's a quality thing. The presence of a switching power supply is, to me, a red flag. It means he's cutting corners wherever he can. He's certainly not going to spend more money on parts that might be closer to the original if he can get parts that are "just as good" for a lot cheaper since his target market probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference, anyway. Thjey want a "Pultec" style EQ because they're read about it a lot in the gear mags, not because they've ever been in the same room with one, let alone used one - and because they're all looking for a "$300 U47". Uli knows this and capitalizes on it. And his blatant exploitation of the KT name doesn't impress me, it just pisses me off. I will admit that the rock bottom price is tempting, but I can resist that temptation, absent confirmation from one of my short list of experienced people whose taste and advice I trust that the thing really does what made the original famous. And I seriously doubt that's gonna happen I gave up wasting money on wishful thinking and cheap substitutes some years ago. Ended up with too much junk I didn't want to use and would be embarressed to try to sell. Frankly I'm rather surprised that a site where guys like Shannon are celebrated would even be having this discussion. Regarding the switchmode power supply, I believe we discussed that in another thread, and it's not as clear cut as "dat iz bad" in fact a well-designed one has a lot of positive attributes for audio. Even the Pro Replica version, in the ad-copy, says they basically ditched the tube rectified PSU because the solid state one is objectively better. And yes, cheaper. In this case, the original design has modern flaws. Regarding the $300 U47 I don't think Behringer / Music Group has gone there, but that is a good analogy for their "appeal." As well as the disdain for the brand. But to be fair, they are one of many companies with similar 'give em what they want' tactics. The really interesting thing to me is that Behringer gear does not always seek to 100% emulate the sound and function of what they are supposedly ripping off. My Behringer MDX 2100 Composer has a sound that I have never heard anywhere else. The Ye-Olden-Days Composer "may have been" a rip of the Drawmer DL whatever, but I think they have gotten better at going their own way--which you have specifically wished for in one of your posts. I think the reams of riotous feedback must have trickled through to the company bosses. Or maybe it was the lawsuits, I don't know. Regarding boutique gear, I wish I could afford more of it. I love the little guy just as much as anybody, but the economy of scale is a huge swing for certain products. I personally find a balance between hand-wired whatever and machine-pressed whatever else. If there is any legal or moral issue with a company it will be dealt with in the court system. Of course you can buy or not buy whatever you want. Also there is a lot of in-between the extremes. Chinese manufacturing is used by a lot of well respected "boutique" operations like Peluso, ADK, on and on. Not to mention Chinese-manufactured parts. They are literally everywhere. I used to hear "China - bad" a lot, so Music Group is a really easy target basically being 100% what that is. I'm still not sure that's a sentiment I agree with. And I'm not sure if that's part of what you're talking about. I sort of embrace the 'gear for every man' philosophy, that this KT EQP sort of exemplifies for me. Klark Teknik was/is a failed company so they are lucky to even be around in 2017, with England offices and all that being paid for. If you want a boutique EQP, go ahead and buy one, no one is stopping you. They do exist. If you want a KT for $300, why not? It's not exactly a life-altering decision.
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Post by BradM on Jul 19, 2017 18:58:16 GMT -6
Regarding boutique gear, I wish I could afford more of it. I love the little guy just as much as anybody, but the economy of scale is a huge swing for certain products. I personally find a balance between hand-wired whatever and machine-pressed whatever else. If there is any legal or moral issue with a company it will be dealt with in the court system. Of course you can buy or not buy whatever you want. Also there is a lot of in-between the extremes. Chinese manufacturing is used by a lot of well respected "boutique" operations like Peluso, ADK, on and on. Not to mention Chinese-manufactured parts. They are literally everywhere. I used to hear "China - bad" a lot, so Music Group is a really easy target basically being 100% what that is. I'm still not sure that's a sentiment I agree with. You bring up a good point. So here's a philosophical question for you guys. My company's products are largely manufactured by a company located in the San Francisco Bay Area (PCB assembly and some mechanical assembly...I also personally do mechanical assembly and testing/QC/boxing). This company is owned by and operated by family that happens to be Chinese American. Almost everyone that works in their facility is Chinese and speaks Chinese. I assume many of these technicians are first generation immigrants. Does this count as Chinese manufacturing? Or American manufacturing? Does it matter what continent on which the factory is located, or what ethnicity the workers are if at the end of the day you have a good working relationship and are proud of the quality that you are delivering to your customers? Brad
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Post by EmRR on Jul 19, 2017 19:02:31 GMT -6
I don't care who makes it, so long as they know what they're doing and are paid a fair wage.
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Post by Guitar on Jul 19, 2017 19:19:15 GMT -6
More power to 'em, I say.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 19, 2017 21:39:43 GMT -6
Regarding boutique gear, I wish I could afford more of it. I love the little guy just as much as anybody, but the economy of scale is a huge swing for certain products. I personally find a balance between hand-wired whatever and machine-pressed whatever else. If there is any legal or moral issue with a company it will be dealt with in the court system. Of course you can buy or not buy whatever you want. Also there is a lot of in-between the extremes. Chinese manufacturing is used by a lot of well respected "boutique" operations like Peluso, ADK, on and on. Not to mention Chinese-manufactured parts. They are literally everywhere. I used to hear "China - bad" a lot, so Music Group is a really easy target basically being 100% what that is. I'm still not sure that's a sentiment I agree with. You bring up a good point. So here's a philosophical question for you guys. My company's products are largely manufactured by a company located in the San Francisco Bay Area (PCB assembly and some mechanical assembly...I also personally do mechanical assembly and testing/QC/boxing). This company is owned by and operated by family that happens to be Chinese American. Almost everyone that works in their facility is Chinese and speaks Chinese. I assume many of these technicians are first generation immigrants. Does this count as Chinese manufacturing? Or American manufacturing? Does it matter what continent on which the factory is located, or what ethnicity the workers are if at the end of the day you have a good working relationship and are proud of the quality that you are delivering to your customers? Brad I could care about ethnicity - but I don't. I do care about manufacturing ethic, especially as it might be influenced by government and possibly cultural attitude. The Chinese in SF are (for the most part) a tight knit and somewhat insular community, but are also definitely as American as they are Chinese. As some of you probably know I've spent the greater part of my life in and around SF. The thing about China is that, large as they may be, they are still a developing nation in some ways and are evolving quite rapidly. There is still a part of Chinese culture that has a definite attitude toward outsiders and are more than willing to take advantage, as illustrated by the big scandal about the faking of fossils some years ago. Hopefully that is on the wane. Concerning Music Group, I'm not sure that I'd regard it as being a particularly Chinese thing - Uli was up to the same stuff when he was centered in Europe, doing blatant ripoffs of other companies' products. You brought up the matter of pride in the products your company makes. I think this is very important, regardless of who you are and where you're located, but hand in hand with that is the standard of quality you regard as being worthy of that pride. It's never static - I remember when I was a kid "Made in Japan" was regarded as a mark of low quality, cheap junk. They sure turned that around!
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Post by drbill on Jul 19, 2017 21:55:31 GMT -6
He sure as hell ain't no Rupert Neve. That's it!!!!!!! I can't take it anymore. John - you made me order a 2nd unit. Congrats!!!
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 19, 2017 22:01:47 GMT -6
He sure as hell ain't no Rupert Neve. That's it!!!!!!! I can't take it anymore. John - you made me order a 2nd unit. Congrats!!! Whatever floats your boat!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 19, 2017 22:08:10 GMT -6
Regarding boutique gear, I wish I could afford more of it. I love the little guy just as much as anybody, but the economy of scale is a huge swing for certain products. I personally find a balance between hand-wired whatever and machine-pressed whatever else. If there is any legal or moral issue with a company it will be dealt with in the court system. Of course you can buy or not buy whatever you want. Also there is a lot of in-between the extremes. Chinese manufacturing is used by a lot of well respected "boutique" operations like Peluso, ADK, on and on. Not to mention Chinese-manufactured parts. They are literally everywhere. I used to hear "China - bad" a lot, so Music Group is a really easy target basically being 100% what that is. I'm still not sure that's a sentiment I agree with. You bring up a good point. So here's a philosophical question for you guys. My company's products are largely manufactured by a company located in the San Francisco Bay Area (PCB assembly and some mechanical assembly...I also personally do mechanical assembly and testing/QC/boxing). This company is owned by and operated by family that happens to be Chinese American. Almost everyone that works in their facility is Chinese and speaks Chinese. I assume many of these technicians are first generation immigrants. Does this count as Chinese manufacturing? Or American manufacturing? Does it matter what continent on which the factory is located, or what ethnicity the workers are if at the end of the day you have a good working relationship and are proud of the quality that you are delivering to your customers? Brad Don't care who or where something is made, consumerism is the worst enemy of Comunism! All I care is that it's made safely, this should mean me giving up DIY, but let's just call it the exception to my own rule!😁
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Post by timcampbell on Jul 20, 2017 2:46:54 GMT -6
It's a little funny to think all these Pultec and 1176 clones can be traced directly back to Jakob Erland's Gyraf Audio DIY page that was posted more than 20 years ago and refined over the years through groupdiy. www.gyraf.dk/gy_pd/gyraf_diy.html
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Post by jakeharris on Jul 20, 2017 3:19:27 GMT -6
Not sure about the Pultec, but Purple Audio was the first to clone a 1176.
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Post by timcampbell on Jul 20, 2017 3:34:46 GMT -6
jakeharris the Gyraf 1176 page was up in 1994. Purple Audio started shipping their MC76 in 1997. Tube Tech /Lydkraft has been doing the Pultec for many years.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 20, 2017 9:57:29 GMT -6
jakeharris the Gyraf 1176 page was up in 1994. Purple Audio started shipping their MC76 in 1997. Tube Tech /Lydkraft has been doing the Pultec for many years. While the timeline is interesting Im not sure Andrew ever saw Jacobs pages, I know Andrew was rebuilding 1176's long before the MC76.
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Post by drbill on Jul 20, 2017 13:59:35 GMT -6
FYI - for those who ordered from Sweetwater, it's looking like early September......
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2017 14:10:53 GMT -6
So major manufacturer using small guy timelines to undercut the small guys and put the squeeze on them. Something stinks here. I wouldn't buy one of these from KTBehringer if they were $50.
Really glad I bought Warm products.
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Post by BradM on Jul 20, 2017 14:22:58 GMT -6
So major manufacturer using small guy timelines to undercut the small guys and put the squeeze on them. Something stinks here. Is this not capitalism in action?
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Post by EmRR on Jul 20, 2017 14:30:59 GMT -6
Big guy just caught on that people have been prepaying for DIY short runs that have been undercutting official manufacturing.....
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 20, 2017 14:33:57 GMT -6
FYI - for those who ordered from Sweetwater, it's looking like early September...... Mine have shipped from Sweetwater.
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Post by Guitar on Jul 20, 2017 14:34:57 GMT -6
Well they wouldn't be undercutting anybody if they were of low quality. The price/performance, at least on paper, seems outrageously high. There's plenty of other cheap EQs that don't post that kind of threat because they also have a lower performance.
I think the real innovation, could be, the audio transformers. You have to bet the Midas transformers are much, much cheaper than ordering from Cinemag, which swings the price point drastically.
It does seem like they are taking cues from Warm's successful products, but that could just be circumstantial. Who doesn't want a Pultec-style EQ and an 1176-style compressor? Sounds like a killer vocal, bass, snare, kick chain to me.
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Post by ragan on Jul 20, 2017 14:42:07 GMT -6
Yeah I would guess the main thing they're doing with this stunt and the price lowering on the 1176 is trying to put the squeeze on Warm. After the shakeup Warm has caused in the marketplace, it seems inevitable that one of the "big guys" would hit back.
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