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Post by bluegrassdan on Oct 15, 2016 11:00:14 GMT -6
I love KM84s for acoustic instruments. Has anyone compared the new Soyuz SU-11 to a KM84? Can anyone describe the tonal characteristics compared to the KM84 (or anything else for that matter)?
Thanks in advance.
Dan
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Post by chasmanian on Oct 15, 2016 11:32:02 GMT -6
Just wanted to say welcome bluegrassdan. I know nothing about those mics. But, best of luck.  |
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Post by drbill on Oct 15, 2016 11:53:49 GMT -6
I have now (mostly) given up on KM84's in favor of KM86's, and KM53's. Maybe or maybe not an option for you, but worth checking out. I love the KM84, but I REALLY love my KM86's as they are more balanced and "connected" in a way my 84's aren't, and the KM53's are another magnatude of detail and elegance - if you want / need that. (not always appropriate)
Have not tried the SU-11's, but I'm finally done with my SDC searching....
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 15, 2016 12:09:38 GMT -6
I sold my km84 for a Gefell M300. I'm telling you, the difference was negligible. Never thought I would say that, either. M300 has a little more too, but I found myself adding top to the 84's with acoustics. drbill, where do you get km86's these days that isn't the ridiculous price that VK is asking? |
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 15, 2016 12:27:02 GMT -6
Pretty certain Martin had the soyuz and his buddy's 84:thought he posted clips 6 months ago ?
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Post by drbill on Oct 15, 2016 14:51:22 GMT -6
I sold my km84 for a Gefell M300. I'm telling you, the difference was negligible. Never thought I would say that, either. M300 has a little more too, but I found myself adding top to the 84's with acoustics. drbill , where do you get km86's these days that isn't the ridiculous price that VK is asking? How much is VK asking? I got a pair of fantastic mint conditioned ones for $2200 a pair. Killer price. Got em from a scoring engineer buddy who was/is selling off his HUGE mic collection. I lucked out and got a bunch of Neumann SDC's....(2) KM86, (2) KM53, (2) KM140, and a bunch of other mics too. I've got Gefell's too - mv692's with M7 caps - which I like a bit better than the M300's, and you're right - they are brighter. But I still prefer the Neumann KM's.... Personal preference. I could see people liking a brighter sound. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 15, 2016 14:54:26 GMT -6
Well, they were asking $1750 for a mint 84...ridiculous. If you see a KM86 anywhere, let me know!
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Post by Guitar on Oct 20, 2016 17:11:08 GMT -6
I think a pair of modded Oktava MK 012 might be my next move. Does that even enter into this equation? I think maybe it could for me...
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Post by tasteliketape on Oct 20, 2016 17:20:11 GMT -6
Rick Sutton is talking about selling 4 km84 consecutive serial numbers , he retiring . On the other sit there 's a thread in high end .
Suttonsoundstudios.com
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Post by bluegrassdan on Oct 20, 2016 19:02:31 GMT -6
Rick Sutton is talking about selling 4 km84 consecutive serial numbers , he retiring . On the other sit there 's a thread in high end . Suttonsoundstudios.com Very interested and tempted. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 20, 2016 21:39:51 GMT -6
Don't feel pressured or rush to buy bluegrassdan. I've used them both. The KM-84 is about the easiest mic I've ever encountered to record with. You basically point it at something, move it around an inch or two, and you're good to go. It's tone simply gets instruments to sit perfectly in a track. It has all the detail you'd probably ever want or need. My buddy has a pair, and I can borrow them whenever I want to.
I had the beautiful new Soyuz 0-17 mic here for a little over a week, and they sent along a pair of their SU-11's for me to try too. I also had the Neumann K84's here at the same time. One thing you have to like about SDC's is they typically sound a little thinner than the big mics, so they're easier to sit in a mix. But there's also a hint of a nasal quality about them.
The Soyuz 0-11 had all the good qualities the Neumann had, but was a little smoother and more pleasing. Not softer, not attenuated in the highs, just smoother and richer. There's a signature Soyuz sound. There's something smoother about them, but whatever frequencies or harmonics they're accentuating, it's the most pleasant ones to the human ear. The quality people look for in a real U47 or U67 are there in the Soyuz 0-17 too.
So.. if you stuck a Soyuz 0-11 and a Neumann K-84 in front of me and said you can have only one, I'd take the Soyuz, really, and I've used the K84's a lot, so I'm very familiar with them. They're very similar mics, but the Soyuz is like the prettier sister, undeniable.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 22, 2016 2:41:53 GMT -6
Martin I liked the first half of your post but before I could finish you turned into a Soyuz salesman again Consecutive meticulously maintained km84's are a better investment than Soyuz sdc, not too mention resale value and the km84's are classics, that sound amazing every time... |
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Post by rowmat on Oct 22, 2016 3:10:34 GMT -6
Haven't heard a Soyuz but have three KM84's and a KMS84i.
Out of all of our SDC's (KM184's, Josephson C42's, Oktava MK-012's, AKG C60, Neumann KM54) the KM84's get used the most and almost never sound wrong.
Occasionally something like the KM54 will win out say on a mandolin, banjo, Autoharp etc. but for shear versatility the KM84 just works.
Apart from its near flat frequency response and midrange focus the way KM84's handle transients on acoustic instruments is near perfect IMO.
If I was going to get another SDC it would be a pair of KM86's but they seem hard to come by these days.
Not sure how a Soyuz would make me smile more than a KM84 as there's nothing much about a KM84 that I feel is lacking to justify something that would be different and well... not a KM84.
Still if there was a Soyuz floating about I would give it a shot.
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Post by rowmat on Oct 22, 2016 3:31:24 GMT -6
I think a pair of modded Oktava MK 012 might be my next move. Does that even enter into this equation? I think maybe it could for me... We have a pair of MK-012's with cardioid, omni and hyper cardioid capsules. I often use them for overheads. Although they are transformerless like KM184's, they are warmer than the KM184's and to my ears are tonally a little closer to KM84's. The main issue is they are extremely sensitive to rumble and air turbulence. I've used one fitted with the hyper capsule on a boom for some indoor film sound work and you must have very good shock mounting and wind protection. I have a pair of Bill Sitler mod kits that I still haven't got around to installing but it's on the 'to do' list and I'll mod just the one first so I can compare it with the unmodded one. |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Oct 22, 2016 9:12:33 GMT -6
I was biased against the LDC Soyez before I heard it simply because it was being compared to all sorts of high end mics and I didn't want to believe it. When I finally heard it I was a believer.
I can't wait to get my hands on the 0-11 to give it a try. We have a pair of 84's, a pair of 184's (don't like them), 54's(my favorite), 56's, etc.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 22, 2016 9:48:47 GMT -6
Martin I liked the first half of your post but before I could finish you turned into a Soyuz salesman again Consecutive meticulously maintained km84's are a better investment than Soyuz sdc, not too mention resale value and the km84's are classics, that sound amazing every time... I don't disagree at all with those statements Chase. Remember, I've used K84's a lot, and I think they're a minor miracle. My tracks went up to a completely new level, just because of the acoustic guitar sound the K84's gave me. I was speaking only about the tone of the mics, not thinking about resale value at all. The 0-11 and K84 are quite similar, so it's not like I'm comparing something very different, where you might find one mic's good for one thing, the other good for something else. You would use the 0-11's for exactly the same thing's you'd use the K84's for. The 0-11 is kind of like a K84 that's just a little sweeter. I wouldn't be looking at it the same way a small studio might. I'd only be concerned how it worked for me, and I liked that it sounded just a little different. That slight sweetness may not be for every taste, but once I used it in tracks, it had all I could ask for. It sort of EQ's itself, where I didn't have to use as much compression to get transients to sit right in a track with a lot of strumming. |
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Post by drbill on Oct 22, 2016 10:43:07 GMT -6
Beyond it's almost perfect tone for stringed instruments, one of the most coveted and beautiful things about a KM84 is it's polar pattern and it's "reach". It works wonderfully in somewhat less than perfect environments.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 22, 2016 12:54:22 GMT -6
Funny thing you wouldn't expect, if you put a pop screen on, the K84's a damn good vocal mic. Way better than most of the under 1k Chinese capsule LDC's. It wouldn't be a mistake if someone decided to use it as an all arounder until they could afford something else to compliment it.
I suppose the Soyuz would work much the same way, but I didn't try it for vocals.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 22, 2016 13:07:11 GMT -6
While I haven't missed my 84 after selling and getting the M300....you guys aren't helping my irrational lust.
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 22, 2016 13:15:31 GMT -6
Wait I thought the m300 was like 400% better: no ? |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 22, 2016 13:19:10 GMT -6
Since you don't have the K84 anymore John, you should demo the 0-11 if you can.
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Post by indiehouse on Oct 22, 2016 14:14:58 GMT -6
Someone touched in this earlier, but the thing about the Soyuz is the depreciation factor. It's priced pretty much on par with a KM84. And you say they are pretty equal, tonally, more or less. I plop down some greenbacks for a KM84, and I'll never lose money on it. Same can't be said for the Soyuz. If they were priced just a tad lower, they might have more appeal, to me, anyways.
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Post by Ward on Oct 22, 2016 14:48:44 GMT -6
While I haven't missed my 84 after selling and getting the M300....you guys aren't helping my irrational lust. Well, apart from the Neumann KM54 and KM56, the best acoustic microphone in the world is the old Neumann-Gefell M582 with the cardioid capsule. Ever heard "Russian Hill" by Jellyfish? That kind of acoustic sound. Like Dan Timinski's acoustic sound too, on the AKUS records. And the best part? Tube and under $900 all day long. |
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Post by rowmat on Oct 22, 2016 15:24:32 GMT -6
I know many here covet the KM54/KM56.
I have a KM54 and think it is great... but not all the time.
Most of the time I will still use a KM84.
To my ears the KM54 often provides too much transient information.
It can sound almost hyper-real when the instrument using it is very exposed in the track.
I find it does excel on many double stringed instruments such as mandolins, 12 strings etc. and especially in a busy mix where the detail of the KM54 really lets you know what instrument is playing.
However most of the time just the 'real' KM84 is enough.
Although I can imagine the first time back in the 1950's when a KM54/56 was first tracked to tape it would have put a smile on many a face.
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Post by wiz on Oct 22, 2016 16:34:10 GMT -6
Honestly.. the KM84 was one of the only "game changers" I have ever come across....
When I got it, a lot of worry left my brain permanently...
I have gotten stellar results with it on
Acoustic Guitar
Vocals
Snare
Tambourine
Shaker
Overhead
On acoustic guitar, its just a no brainer...
I can't really say the above about any other mic.. though my U87 is close.
Those two mics... U87 and a Km84 thats really all you need....
oh wait, I also can't get by without my 1073, and this SM57, I need this SM57.. now thats all I need...
wait... I need that LA2A
(joke referencing "The Jerk" by Steve Martin.... 8) )
cheers
Wiz
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