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Post by wiz on Oct 17, 2016 21:00:09 GMT -6
why are these changes , always positive in outcome?
cheers
Wiz
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Post by drbill on Oct 17, 2016 21:17:35 GMT -6
Since some seem to continue missing the (not so) subtle differences between 120 and 240 volt power paradigms..... There are significant differences that makes power cabling (perhaps) less important in 240v environments. Just saying'.....
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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 18, 2016 0:01:17 GMT -6
Since some seem to continue missing the (not so) subtle differences between 120 and 240 volt power paradigms..... There are significant differences that makes power cabling (perhaps) less important in 240v environments. Just saying'..... Complete can u you please explain to the peanut gallery the difference please re 120v vs 240v ? Thanks Doc
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Post by kilroyrock on Oct 18, 2016 6:27:51 GMT -6
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Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 6:56:25 GMT -6
cats just know stuff .........
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Post by svart on Oct 18, 2016 7:11:14 GMT -6
One thing that I feel the need to address, is the duality I see in threads like this, but thankfully mostly at other sites..
It's all too common to see folks speak of "hearing obvious differences", but when it's mentioned that electrical tests need to be run to verify *actual* differences, those same folks will say things along the lines of "you can't test for these types of things"..
That's plain horseshit.
Physics is physics. If you hear a difference, then there will be a corresponding electrical difference. If you can't prove a difference, either your equipment isn't good enough, you don't have the right equipment, you aren't looking for the right things, or there plain just isn't a difference.
However, I've seen these same folks turn around and tell folks that without proper testing, their opinions aren't worth anything.
Such is the duality of pro-audio. The positions of people's opinions change depending on which side of the criticism they sit on.
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Post by svart on Oct 18, 2016 7:16:42 GMT -6
why are these changes , always positive in outcome? cheers Wiz I think that's part of what the skeptics are saying, that a lot of the "positive" outcomes are either based in "paid" reviews of a product, or confirmation bias. You spent money on something expecting a difference, therefor you heard a difference kinda thing. I hear it all the time in bands who decide to record themselves. They expect that only they could do their own music justice, so therefor the result is "superior" to going to a professional studio.. Even when it really sounds awful to everyone else.
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Post by jin167 on Oct 18, 2016 7:24:35 GMT -6
One thing that I feel the need to address, is the duality I see in threads like this, but thankfully mostly at other sites.. It's all too common to see folks speak of "hearing obvious differences", but when it's mentioned that electrical tests need to be run to verify *actual* differences, those same folks will say things along the lines of "you can't test for these types of things".. That's plain horseshit. Physics is physics. If you hear a difference, then there will be a corresponding electrical difference. If you can't prove a difference, either your equipment isn't good enough, you don't have the right equipment, you aren't looking for the right things, or there plain just isn't a difference. However, I've seen these same folks turn around and tell folks that without proper testing, their opinions aren't worth anything. Such is the duality of pro-audio. The positions of people's opinions change depending on which side of the criticism they sit on. Amen to this. If the differences are so small that they can't be measured even with the of resolution of a modern measuring equipment then isn't it logical to think that something else could be affecting the sound that you are hearing (temperature, humidity, material of the clothing a person is wearing, what he/she had for lunch, and what not).
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Post by svart on Oct 18, 2016 7:34:57 GMT -6
One thing that I feel the need to address, is the duality I see in threads like this, but thankfully mostly at other sites.. It's all too common to see folks speak of "hearing obvious differences", but when it's mentioned that electrical tests need to be run to verify *actual* differences, those same folks will say things along the lines of "you can't test for these types of things".. That's plain horseshit. Physics is physics. If you hear a difference, then there will be a corresponding electrical difference. If you can't prove a difference, either your equipment isn't good enough, you don't have the right equipment, you aren't looking for the right things, or there plain just isn't a difference. However, I've seen these same folks turn around and tell folks that without proper testing, their opinions aren't worth anything. Such is the duality of pro-audio. The positions of people's opinions change depending on which side of the criticism they sit on. Amen to this. If the differences are so small that they can't be measured even with the of resolution of a modern measuring equipment then isn't it logical to think that something else could be affecting the sound that you are hearing (temperature, humidity, material of the clothing a person is wearing, what he/she had for lunch, and what not). I think a lot of "difference" in these unscientific listening tests is actually the human body. People don't sit exactly the same way from moment to moment.. Someone clears their throat and changes the air pressure in their ears.. People move around a little and change the micro-acoustics in the room.. Air pressure of the environment changes slightly, which changes eardrum response.. Etc, etc, etc. It seems that these things are rarely taken into account as uncontrollable variables, and usually brushed aside by those who fancy themselves as expert listeners, because to do so would admit that their skill is completely dependent on outside influences and the whims of the human body in general. I don't have a problem with folks who say they can hear things that others can't. I do think it's more rare than some will have you believe though.. But the majority of my problem is with the fervor that these folks will dismiss any and all critique of their self-proclaimed skill. They will announce that they can detect minute differences, but denigrate those who don't hear any difference.. Who is *right* in this scenario? What if the true "golden ear" is the person who doesn't hear anything? Why is it the person who says they hear things differently always the one that others feel they need to look up to, when the vast majority of people don't hear anything different? Science is all about critique and discovery. To attempt blocking scientific critique is something that folks do when protecting egos.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 18, 2016 8:18:02 GMT -6
svart said,"If you can't prove a difference, either your equipment isn't good enough, you don't have the right equipment, you aren't looking for the right things".
That's quite true. There were some instances I vaguely recall where people were discussing things they noticed, and others didn't, so they vilified those who did. Then some new devices were invented that did in fact measure those differences. It's been so long, please don't ask me for details, I've forgotten. There were people online at audiophile forums who were adamant about digital being "just zeros and ones", until jitter became an accepted specification. So, sometimes what can't be measured today, can be measured tomorrow, that's why I trust my ears.
Me, I didn't have any expectation of a positive result when I first tried some different cabling. In fact, I was heavily biased to think it was pure nonsense, until I did try some things out.
As for the $15 in parts in a $300 cable post, well, there's probably $110 worth of parts in a Neumann microphone, or a $150 worth of parts in a UAD LA2A. That particular cable may have been a hype, but that doesn't mean they all are. Believe me, most of the high end manufacturers have serious engineers at the helm, and frankly, I doubt they're all wrong.
I don't mind people having a different opinion than me. I do mind when they tell me I'm wrong and imagining things. I personally have been in quite a few critical situations, like mixing my band's album when I was signed to Mercury Records, where I've noticed things other engineers missed, not knowing what it was. Things would have been a mess if I didn't notice. These people were legendary producers and engineers, so I've learned not to let those "who know more than I do" intimidate me when it comes to my sensitivities musically.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 18, 2016 8:32:04 GMT -6
Here's a question. Say I'm at home, and I'm comparing speaker wire. I don't believe there will be any difference whatsoever, really, I seriously don't believe there will be any difference, so I'm highly biased against it being so.
They're the same gauge. I don't know which wire is which when listening, a friend is switching when I'm not in the room. I'm listening to a familiar song on a CD. Sometimes I clearly hear some words that were unintelligible previously, and sometimes they're not clear. The cables are switched many times, in all the various orders they can be switched, and I take notes.
The unintelligible speaker wire was the best Radio Shack wire, the intelligible wire was $90 worth of Tributaries wire. So, my conclusion was, the Tributaries wire made vocals more intelligible. Why think more about it, I bought the Tributaries. By the way, I still use that speaker wire in my home stereo system after selling the $700 Harmonic Technology speaker cables I'd been given. Although there were differences, they were differences, but not necessarily an improvement. Better to use the money gained elsewhere.
So, am I imagining the difference between speaker cables?
* other people noticed the exact same thing.
* I think one reason people mostly hear improvements when comparing cables is they're usually comparing the cheap cables the product came with to cables made better.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Oct 18, 2016 8:52:58 GMT -6
Who said the differences aren't measurable?
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Post by svart on Oct 18, 2016 8:57:12 GMT -6
Here's a question. Say I'm at home, and I'm comparing speaker wire. I don't believe there will be any difference whatsoever, really, I seriously don't believe there will be any difference, so I'm highly biased against it being so. They're the same gauge. I don't know which wire is which when listening, a friend is switching when I'm not in the room. I'm listening to a familiar song on a CD. Sometimes I clearly hear some words that were unintelligible previously, and sometimes they're not clear. The cables are switched many times, in all the various orders they can be switched, and I take notes. The unintelligible speaker wire was the best Radio Shack wire, the intelligible wire was a $90 worth of Tributaries wire. So, my conclusion is, the Tributaries wire made vocals more intelligible. Why think more about it, I bought the Tributaries. By the way, I still use that speaker wire in my home stereo system after selling the $700 Harmonic Technology speaker cables I'd been given. Although there were differences, they were differences, but not necessarily an improvement. Better to use the money gained elsewhere. So, am I imagining the difference between speaker cables? * other people noticed the exact same thing.
* I think one reason people mostly hear improvements when comparing cables is they're usually comparing the cheap cables the product came with to cables made better. My first question would be.. If you didn't think there would be a difference, why did you take the time to do a comparison in the first place? Why not spend the time cooking a nice steak on the grill? In the engineering world, it's known that the simple effort of going through the testing, or the order in which you did the tests, could be enough to bias a person. That's why it's extremely rare that a simple opinion-based comparison like this would be allowed in the scientific community, and why such complex testing systems like double-blind are the norm. You'd have separation between those designing the test, those performing the test, those analyzing the numbers, and those doing peer reviews of the results. Again, I don't doubt you might have heard different results, but there MUST be a scientific reason why, and I'd still bet that you were overcoming a deficiency in your system, rather than finding an improvement over a properly working system. With speaker cables and extremely low impedance, parasitics like capacitance is almost a non-existent problem. I'd bet it was a more real-world problem like thicker copper oxide skin on the conductor ends that you plugged into the source or speaker leading to slightly different power transfer between cables. Tinning the ends with silver solder and cleaning them properly would likely get rid of any significant difference in a case like this.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 18, 2016 9:41:47 GMT -6
Oy, I did the comparison because someone I respected suggested I try it, why are you trying for a "gotcha" kind of thing?
I had many experiences before then where salesmen or musicians I knew recommended things like a cartridge upgrade, and I was very pleased with the results. So, although I didn't believe there could be differences, and expected no differences, I tried it just to see, for fun. Remember, I was an audiophile then, and comparing things like that wasn't unusual, it was a hobby after all. Both cables were new.
I don't live in a science lab, so my listening was as careful as one can be. There are ALWAYS issues with how testing is done. When others hear exactly the same thing, I doubt they have exactly the same biases I might. Also, blind tests have been proven to have their own faults and biases, though they have value too. Things I might not be able to notice under the pressure of a blind test, I might notice after listening for say.. a week. At that point, the thing that was noticed became obvious, my ears had become trained to notice, my listening skill had evolved a little. Then, my choice is to live with it, or try something different. That's happened plenty of times to me.
It's a little strange to me that guys whose opinions I've come to respect who sweat bullets over the smallest of details in microphone parts, converters, preamps, same product, different year, plug-ins, EQ, you name it, find it hard to believe that cables too can sound different. Maybe one brand's copper is purer, maybe it's better terminated, maybe it has less RF interference, maybe it's a dozen other things.
I really don't care that much why, I have better things to do with my time. The reason I spend time posting on this topic is I've been helped many times by members here, and I wanted them to have an opinion other than the dogma I keep seeing. Pensado's reaction is actually typical.
My suggestion, just try it, change out a power cord or a cable and listen for yourself, that's all I'm suggesting. People can draw their own conclusions.
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Post by svart on Oct 18, 2016 10:33:55 GMT -6
Oy, I did the comparison because someone I respected suggested I try it, why are you trying for a "gotcha" kind of thing? I had many experiences before then where salesmen or musicians I knew recommended things like a cartridge upgrade, and I was very pleased with the results. So, although I didn't believe there could be differences, and expected no differences, I tried it just to see, for fun. Remember, I was an audiophile then, and comparing things like that wasn't unusual, it was a hobby after all. Both cables were new. I don't live in a science lab, so my listening was as careful as one can be. There are ALWAYS issues with how testing is done. When others hear exactly the same thing, I doubt they have exactly the same biases I might. Also, blind tests have been proven to have their own faults and biases, though they have value too. Things I might not be able to notice under the pressure of a blind test, I might notice after listening for say.. a week. At that point, the thing that was noticed became obvious, my ears had become trained to notice, my listening skill had evolved a little. Then, my choice is to live with it, or try something different. That's happened plenty of times to me. It's a little strange to me that guys whose opinions I've come to respect who sweat bullets over the smallest of details in microphone parts, converters, preamps, same product, different year, plug-ins, EQ, you name it, find it hard to believe that cables too can sound different. Maybe one brand's copper is purer, maybe it's better terminated, maybe it has less RF interference, maybe it's a dozen other things. I really don't care that much why, I have better things to do with my time. The reason I spend time posting on this topic is I've been helped many times by members here, and I wanted them to have an opinion other than the dogma I keep seeing. Pensado's reaction is actually typical. My suggestion, just try it, change out a power cord or a cable and listen for yourself, that's all I'm suggesting. People can draw their own conclusions. No gotcha, an honest question. Knowing why someone does something is part of figuring out where they are coming from in their discussion.
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Post by jazznoise on Oct 18, 2016 10:47:36 GMT -6
His point is that in the world of physics, capacitance is a bigger issue in high impedance (low current) scenarios like a guitar cable than it is in low impedance scenarios like driving an 8 Ohm speaker. This is why you can get one of those varicap guitar cables and it's very noticeable, but as long as a PA speaker's cabling can handle the current neither the amp or speaker really cares what the copper looks like.
So he reckons it was probably not the copper and some sort of fault - old wire having oxidized, a bad contact etc.
It's not a "Gotcha", it's how electronics work.
It's also not like we're anti Hi-Fi. I don't worry about what capacitors are in what, I'm a nickle and dime semi-pro engineer/musician. Last week I recorded a band in a studio, and they had C414's. Great, I threw them up and they sounded cool! Before that it was my Behringer ECM8000's cause I haven't got the $$$ for a good pair of omni's yet. The gig was getting done either way, and I don't feel the mics would have hampered the recording. They'd just require a bit more work. I read about this stuff cause it affects whether or not I can keep the budget for me or the band in anyway feasible, which means I build or fix or learn how to do things if it means we save a few bucks. If it was sour grapes I wouldn't want anyone to use anything expensive or good - but it just seems like these guys fool people into believing they're making ain investment in their future when they're not.
That video at the start is a scam and I think that's a point we've gone off. Trying to get artists, particularly the starting off ones who watch Pensado, to invest that kind of money into something like that is completely immoral.
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Post by BradM on Oct 18, 2016 10:58:13 GMT -6
Gusy, I have an idea. Louder Than Liftoff may be willing to purchase a high end power cord (nothing with too crazy a price) and then send it around to folks on this thread who would like to participate so that they can hear if it makes any difference in their setup. I think when we all have had the experience of having heard the same power cord then this discussion will become more insightful as jimwilliams and Martin John Butler have said. In the spirit of my Gear With Friends program we can call this Power Cords With Friends. I'm going to need some help from folks here to get this started. For those with experience with various power cords I need a recommendation for a cord. Martin John Butler - your advice would be welcome. Something under $200 would be good. But I may be willing to go up to $300. For those with expertise in experimental methods and testing protocol, I'd like some recommendations on how you think the listeners should test this power cord in their system. Should we be hooking up to a mic preamp, a speaker, a converter, etc.? Is there a reference track we should all listen to? Let's have some fun and just listen to this stuff. Brad
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 18, 2016 11:02:45 GMT -6
Gusy, I have an idea. Louder Than Liftoff may be willing to purchase a high end power cord (nothing with too crazy a price) and then send it around to folks on this thread who would like to participate so that they can hear if it makes any difference in their setup. I think when we all have had the experience of having heard the same power cord then this discussion will become more insightful as jimwilliams and Martin John Butler have said. In the spirit of my Gear With Friends program we can call this Power Cords With Friends. I'm going to need some help from folks here to get this started. For those with experience with various power cords I need a recommendation for a cord. Martin John Butler - your advice would be welcome. Something under $200 would be good. But I may be willing to go up to $300. For those with expertise in experimental methods and testing protocol, I'd like some recommendations on how you think the listeners should test this power cord in their system. Should we be hooking up to a mic preamp, a speaker, a converter, etc.? Is there a reference track we should all listen to? Let's have some fun and just listen to this stuff. Brad I'm in.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 18, 2016 11:09:57 GMT -6
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Post by BradM on Oct 18, 2016 11:19:20 GMT -6
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Post by svart on Oct 18, 2016 11:25:35 GMT -6
I could go to the hardware store and build a cable from what I think would be quality materials and we can send that around too. Hell, I can build a couple with slight differences in how they are assembled, etc and people can see if they can hear a difference between them
Or if you guys wanted to be scientific, formulate some tests you want done, and I can perform them here in my work lab. It's mostly higher frequency test equipment though.
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Post by BradM on Oct 18, 2016 11:31:03 GMT -6
I could go to the hardware store and build a cable from what I think would be quality materials and we can send that around too. Hell, I can build a couple with slight differences in how they are assembled, etc and people can see if they can hear a difference between them Or if you guys wanted to be scientific, formulate some tests you want done, and I can perform them here in my work lab. It's mostly higher frequency test equipment though. I'd rather folks compare to a piece of shit $1 cable from Monoprice or whatever their gear comes with stock. The test should be easy and simple. While I appreciate the nerdiness most of us could care less about getting bogged down in the details of this stuff. The question to simply answer is: does a $300 power cord improve the sound over the $3 one? Then we'll collect all the anecdotal experience and see what bubbles up to the surface. What we really need to be concerned with is what kinds of gear are we connecting this power cord to and what music are we listening to? Brad
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 18, 2016 11:41:27 GMT -6
I agree Brad. That's kind of my point, compare an upgrade power cord on things that have the basic cord it came with. That's what was done in Pensado's video. A good thing to compare on are power amps.
That Kimber cable cord looks OK, but years back when I was beta testing a lot of cables, Kimber never outgunned the Harmonic Tech cables or the Acoustic Zen, so I'd say go with the Acoustic Zen, it's the perfect cable to test with. I know it well.
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Post by BradM on Oct 18, 2016 11:44:56 GMT -6
I agree Brad. That's kind of my point, compare an upgrade power cord on things that have the basic cord it came with. That's what was done in Pensado's video. A good thing to compare on are power amps. Would powered studio monitors work? If so, we are going to need two power cords. I'm willing to do that, but I may need a few $$$ donors. At the end of all of this how about we sell the power cords and donate the proceeds to Women's Audio Mission: www.womensaudiomission.org/aboutThen at least we can say some good came out of all of this. Brad
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Post by svart on Oct 18, 2016 11:58:17 GMT -6
I could go to the hardware store and build a cable from what I think would be quality materials and we can send that around too. Hell, I can build a couple with slight differences in how they are assembled, etc and people can see if they can hear a difference between them Or if you guys wanted to be scientific, formulate some tests you want done, and I can perform them here in my work lab. It's mostly higher frequency test equipment though. I'd rather folks compare to a piece of shit $1 cable from Monoprice or whatever their gear comes with stock. The test should be easy and simple. While I appreciate the nerdiness most of us could care less about getting bogged down in the details of this stuff. The question to simply answer is: does a $300 power cord improve the sound over the $3 one? Then we'll collect all the anecdotal experience and see what bubbles up to the surface. What we really need to be concerned with is what kinds of gear are we connecting this power cord to and what music are we listening to? Brad I'd like to make sure that the "Piece of shit" cable has the same gauge conductors as the super-cable, or else you're purposefully adding a known deficit to the POS cable. I think you should have at least two tests, one with a transformer based linear power supply, and one with an SMPS based power supply.
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