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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 16, 2016 14:31:07 GMT -6
It's really interesting to hear some of Jim's impressions. I'm a recovered audiophile. I haven't bothered much with it all for more than a decade, although I keep my Stereophile subscription because a friend of mine is the Senior Editor. Much like our quest for the best sound possible for our recording system, audiophiles at all levels were constantly selling and buying gear, trying to reach a plateau they almost never reached. Sound familiar? I began to meet people in the industry at trade shows, got to know some respected reviewers, beta tested a few products, and had a jolly good time listening to some wonderful gear. The things I learned from those days inform my work now greatly. People were learning to discern the most subtle things and enjoyed the process, assuming they could afford at least some level of good gear. I had a great friend who was quite wealthy. He wasn't a conspicuous consumer at all, his only indulgence was a good stereo, as he was an avid music lover. He had two systems, one cost around $55,000, one around $85,000. I preferred the $55,000 system. We tried a few different brand power cords and cables on his systems, and at that level of quality and resolution, you most certainly could hear differences, despite his having his own power supply. Without knowing cost, he auditioned some cables and settled on Synergistic Research cables. Believe me, if all things were equal, you'd hear the differences between cables blind. I listened to those to those systems so often, they became my benchmark. I know our monitors are for monitoring, but once you've listened through a pair of Avalon speakers for of couple of years, you know what it's supposed to sound like. My much less expensive stereo system gives me almost 98% as much pleasure, because I knew what I was aiming for. A Peachtree Audio amp, Sonus Faber's "Toy" speakers with a Rel subwoofer. A nice turntable, some decent cables, and I'm good to go. The whole system probably totals less than $6,000. I have Harmonic Technology and Acoustic Zen's middle of the line power cords and cabling. I approach my recording system the same way. I get familiar with the really high end, then try to get as close to that at a price I can afford. I haven't completed my recording system yet, but I bet it'll be like my home system, incredible for the money invested, and cabling will be a part. On my recording system, I plan to use a combination of PS Audio and Harmonic Tech power cords, costing between $100 and $175, so nothing esoteric about that. I haven't figured out which power conditioner to use yet, (my home stereo has a $500 Furutech). Here's one thing I recommend, it might open yet another can of worms, but I never plug into any standard house outlet, I change the receptacles. I'm sure the engineers here might know of less expensive high quality options, but I was given two of these as a gift, and liked them so much, I can't be bothered to compare or look for a less expensive ones. At $50 each, they just worked as described. www.psaudio.com/products/power-port-premier/Attachments:
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Post by swurveman on Oct 16, 2016 15:56:31 GMT -6
Audio engineers once had to get a degree in electrical engineering, that's why. which no longer seems to be the case nowadays. I'm genuinely curious to know which audio engineers that engineered hit records had degrees in electrical engineering, starting with the Geoff Emerick era (1966) and going forward?
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Post by jazznoise on Oct 16, 2016 16:54:25 GMT -6
Thankfully the generations of cowboys who bought a console and a tape machine made them redundant, so we no longer have to have any meaningful information to digest before we learn to record and we can avoid ugly topics like the projection pattern of instruments, stereo recording angles or psychoacoustic phenomena like pitch vs. loudness or temporal masking and instead focus on what extension cable to use for best 808 kick sound.
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Post by M57 on Oct 16, 2016 17:02:39 GMT -6
Thankfully the generations of cowboys who bought a console and a tape machine made them redundant, so we no longer have to have any meaningful information to digest before we learn to record and we can avoid ugly topics like the projection pattern of instruments, stereo recording angles or psychoacoustic phenomena like pitch vs. loudness or temporal masking and instead focus on what extension cable to use for best 808 kick sound. ..or you're just jealous because you just unloaded your vintage 808. >>ducks behind piano<< I notice no one has broached the subject of the lowly MIDI cable. I swear the white ones capture performances better.
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Post by jin167 on Oct 16, 2016 17:27:15 GMT -6
which no longer seems to be the case nowadays. I'm genuinely curious to know which audio engineers that engineered hit records had degrees in electrical engineering, starting with the Geoff Emerick era (1966) and going forward? I don't care to know. My point is still valid. Modern audio 'engineers' can call themselves whatever they want but what they do has nothing in common with other schools of engineering.
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Post by drbill on Oct 16, 2016 18:00:58 GMT -6
Train drivers call themselves engineers. My trash collector calls himself a sanitation engineer. Guys who make beats call themselves composers. My favorite chef calls himself a culinary diviner. Every kid with a laptop and a keyboard calls himself a producer. Who cares other than people with low self esteem or something to prove? Are we really arguing about the long standing tradition of calling those who control a session with hundreds if not thousands of critical switches, pots. converters, compressors, EQ, decisions being made an audio engineer? Geez.... If you really want to get on your high horse, go after the morons who kidnapped the moniker of R&B (real R&B) and hung it on hip hop. OK. I'm done now.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Oct 16, 2016 19:51:55 GMT -6
The traditional term meant one who could fix the engine if it broke down. Back in the tube era, recording engineers were expected to be able to keep the studio running since studios were expected to pay the musicians' salaries if anything went wrong.
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Post by jazznoise on Oct 17, 2016 8:26:52 GMT -6
To paraphrase myself: I'm not being elitist in what I say, I fully support people who do home recording or whatever cause I was in that boat for a long time too. But I also think anti-intellectualism is bad, and in railing against the dogma of the first generations of engineers we have created a new dogma where knowing things is bad and you should constantly go by instinct or rules of thumb that you receive through the internet meat grinder. And some of those guys are just full of shit - I wouldn't leave Dave Pensado or Graham Cochrane in charge of the family dog. They've been bluffing so hard, for so long it seems like they default to this fundamental dishonesty with just enough common knowledge and positive thinking to get people comfortable. Sorry, you'd learn more in an hour from the website of the late Ebhard Sengpiel: www.sengpielaudio.com/And they'll never tell you that. Or any other great resource, cause they need you to stay dependant for their own financial security.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Oct 17, 2016 8:33:11 GMT -6
Anti-intellectualism is the result of people ignorantly accusing others of ignorance aka blaming the messenger.
None of this stuff is nearly as black and white as self-styled audio skeptics would have people believe. When people hear something that doesn't make sense, it most likely means something is broken as opposed to the messenger being deaf.
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Post by schmalzy on Oct 17, 2016 10:16:43 GMT -6
Oh, man. I truly wish I could be a part of these conversations. I'm SO far outside this world.
Some of you cats are buying Retro 176s or C12 clones to try out because you think you might like 'em or use them on one source. Those are probably more expensive than my entire recording setup (save the computer).
I hear "$175 power cord" and it makes me feel a bit sick. I just scrapped together the $84 to get a mic stand and I wasn't sure if I wanted to spend the extra $18 for a Telescoping Posi-lock.
What a weird world audio is...
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 17, 2016 11:05:27 GMT -6
We've all been at different plateaus at different times schmalzy, so don't feel so bad. Many times just imagining what I'd get if I could afford it helped me stay positive when things were bad. I haven't bought a new power cord for more than 5 years or longer. The ones I mentioned, I had left over from when I downsized my stereo system. I just sold my lovely Blackspade UM-17R mic, and one of the finest vintage ES-335's I've ever seen, just to pay my bills, and it was painful.
Stay with us, it's fun to read about these things. By the time you can afford some new gear, you'll know more about what you want and make better decisions. I'm still paying off the last piece I bought, but I'm lusting for two more things already.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 17, 2016 11:55:06 GMT -6
Well it all depends doesn't it. In every hobby, there's a high end. Boating might as well be called money pitting, fine automobiles, Rolex watches, etc. So, there's a high end in audio, so what? There's value there for those able to afford it. A $350,000 home stereo system just might reveal an improvement with an expensive cable, and it may not, but those in that realm want to be sure there's no weak link it the chain, and go for it. Are there some hyped up rip offs, probably, but when I had $11,000 worth of high end home theater cables given to me, you'd think the explosion on screen was in your house. I sold those, and have a modest in comparison $300 digital cable and a couple of $150 power cords.
Why scoff? Is the Rolex buyer a wacko because he didn't buy a Timex that keeps perfect time too? If you've spent some time around these systems with knowledgable people, you might notice things you don't expect. Just for the record, a long time back, I was the most skeptical listener you could imagine. I absolutely did not believe a cable could make any difference, it wasn't possible in my mind. A salesman I trusted recommended some $90 Tributaries speaker wire. I bought it to replace my Radio Shack special. Two things blew my mind, one, there was a Tom Waits song that I'd always wondered what the hell he was saying, and now it was perfectly clear. There was also a string part in a song that I now could tell was a synthesizer, previously, I thought it was a string section. My skepticism was banished for good, and I've kept an open mind ever since.
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Post by drbill on Oct 17, 2016 12:36:19 GMT -6
Maybe if everyone bought high end monitoring, amps and cables we could all hear the differences in the 251 shootouts better!!!!
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Post by svart on Oct 17, 2016 13:38:37 GMT -6
Maybe if everyone bought high end monitoring, amps and cables we could all hear the differences in the 251 shootouts better!!!! Maybe, but the swig of water, or the throat clearing or the way the singer stands or the temperature/humidity of the room can make singers sound drastically different from hour to hour. Does it really matter that there might be 1% difference between 251 clones when the 5% difference from take to take would make them all sound different anyway? I know that I've had singers come in, sing into the U47/312 and it sound strange, only for them to try again a few hours later and it sounds divine. Nothing changed in the hardware setup, but their voices sure did. I'm just saying. It's hard to nail down hard metrics when there are other uncontrollable factors.
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Post by jakeharris on Oct 17, 2016 15:45:44 GMT -6
Maybe if everyone bought high end monitoring, amps and cables we could all hear the differences in the 251 shootouts better!!!! Maybe, but the swig of water, or the throat clearing or the way the singer stands or the temperature/humidity of the room can make singers sound drastically different from hour to hour. Not just the singers, the gear is constantly changing too.
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Post by explorer on Oct 17, 2016 16:37:55 GMT -6
I think of this sort of thing as the final 0.5%. I'm more worried about getting the other 99.5% right. Law of diminishing returns etc.
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Post by drbill on Oct 17, 2016 16:49:10 GMT -6
Maybe if everyone bought high end monitoring, amps and cables we could all hear the differences in the 251 shootouts better!!!! Maybe, but the swig of water, or the throat clearing or the way the singer stands or the temperature/humidity of the room can make singers sound drastically different from hour to hour. Does it really matter that there might be 1% difference between 251 clones when the 5% difference from take to take would make them all sound different anyway? I know that I've had singers come in, sing into the U47/312 and it sound strange, only for them to try again a few hours later and it sounds divine. Nothing changed in the hardware setup, but their voices sure did. I'm just saying. It's hard to nail down hard metrics when there are other uncontrollable factors. I guess I should have used a smiley......
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,943
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Post by ericn on Oct 17, 2016 17:05:11 GMT -6
Maybe if everyone bought high end monitoring, amps and cables we could all hear the differences in the 251 shootouts better!!!! I do think there is something to this, I am always surprised by what passes for a " pro monitor" system, we have gotten to the point where it's all about compact package rather than sonics !
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Post by rowmat on Oct 17, 2016 17:08:26 GMT -6
Okay let's put this in perspective.
Suppose we have a one gallon bucket of water with a 1/2" diameter outlet at the bottom.
This bucket is being constantly filled from a water pipe entering the bucket at the top.
The fill pipe is 6 ft long and 3/4" in diameter and poses no restriction in order to keep the bucket full and can maintain an inward flow rate that is never exceeded by the water flowing out of the bucket.
So the bucket will not run dry.
The fill pipe is a standard new length of clean steel water pipe containing no imperfections or contaminants.
This pipe is attached to a water main which in turn is part of the cities municipal water supply.
We then replace the standard steel pipe with an expensive pipe constructed of some hi tech material and had been meticulously polished inside and out etc. etc.
This expensive pipe is 1" in diameter and 6 ft long and is connected to the same municipal water main that the standard steel pipe was.
Question: Will the water flowing out of the bottom outlet of the bucket be effected differently depending on which filler pipe is being used?
ie. will is taste different, be softer, wash your clothes better, make you feel more refreshed?
If so why? If not, why not?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 17, 2016 17:25:11 GMT -6
Man, do I know what you mean svart. We've all used the same mic, same pre, same settings, same exact spot, same song, same distance, different day, totally different sound, aarrgghh!
I get what you're trying to say Rowmat, but they're false equivalencies. If you haven't already, try this my friend, do just what Jim Williams recommended, try it first.
Jim Williams said, "What I have found to be consistent is this: those that have done the tests hear the differences. Those that have not done the tests claim it's all BS. If you have done these tests properly and extensively and have never detected any differences, we want to hear from you. If you have not, stick to writing works of fiction".
BradMcGowen mentioned earlier that the difference you might hear when comparing power cords is similar to the difference you might hear with different converters. I think that's a fairly accurate way to put it, except it's often even greater.
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Post by rowmat on Oct 17, 2016 17:39:05 GMT -6
Man, do I know what you mean svart. We've all used the same mic, same pre, same settings, same exact spot, same song, same distance, different day, totally different sound, aarrgghh! I get what you're trying to say Rowmat, but they're false equivalencies. If you haven't already, try this my friend, do just what Jim Williams recommended, try it first. Jim Williams said, "What I have found to be consistent is this: those that have done the tests hear the differences. Those that have not done the tests claim it's all BS. If you have done these tests properly and extensively and have never detected any differences, we want to hear from you. If you have not, stick to writing works of fiction". BradMcGowen mentioned earlier that the difference you might hear when comparing power cords is similar to the difference you might hear with different converters. I think that's a fairly accurate way to put it, except it's often even greater. Have been there with power cable testing. You didn't answer my questions and while we're at it I'll look forward to hearing from Mr Williams.
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 17, 2016 17:50:50 GMT -6
The traditional term meant one who could fix the engine if it broke down. Back in the tube era, recording engineers were expected to be able to keep the studio running since studios were expected to pay the musicians' salaries if anything went wrong. Well then, as a former sound company and music store service tech I must be about half a real engineer, huh?
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Oct 17, 2016 18:07:30 GMT -6
At least!😀
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Post by jakeharris on Oct 17, 2016 19:02:18 GMT -6
Have been there with power cable testing. You didn't answer my questions and while we're at it I'll look forward to hearing from Mr Williams. You've already covered this: you're in Australia with 230-240V. These guys are in the US with 110-115V (actual can probably be anywhere between 100-130V). Your experiences aren't relevant to each other. Why bother restarting the loop? PS: to answer your question, no, it won't make f-all worth of difference since water flow is dictated by the narrowest point, your 1/2" pipe. In terms of power cables, that 1/2" pipe is the cable. Compared to what's inside the wall, the IEC cable and the wires connecting the transformer primaries are the bottleneck.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 17, 2016 19:50:07 GMT -6
Rowboat, I did answer your question. To me, that's a false equivalency. The water flowing through your pipe is essentially just touching the edge of the pipe, but the majority of the water flows through without touching the pipe. Correct me if I'm I wrong, but doesn't electricity go through the metal, not just be surrounded by it? If so, they're not the same thing at all.
I just watched the video, I didn't have time to watch before. Pensado's "aw shucks" act, tempering his response is so typical. He doesn't want to be ridiculed about his discovery by people who just like he was, are so sure there won't be any difference, they're condescending about it. (not referring to the good company here).
He's acting as if upgraded power cords just happened. Perhaps for him it did, but I've had this exact same discussion over 25 years ago, and when one or two of the dozens of skeptics finally simply gave it a try, their jaw dropped, because they were CERTAIN it would make no difference, just like Pensado's did. He's not faking or imagining the improvements he hears.
I'm done with trying to argue a point. I say if you want your system to be its best, don't forget to look at your outlets, power cords and cables. A $50 outlet might just snap your head back. And if you're sure I'm wrong, and it really doesn't matter which cable you use, don't bother, keep those $3 cords your gear came with and be happy, really.
Good luck guys.
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