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Post by ragan on Oct 14, 2016 22:46:10 GMT -6
Again, I'm not following. The way a DAW visually represents he audio is irrelevant here, isn't it? It could be a drawing of a kitty representing the audio for all I care as far as a null test. All that matters is the pieces of actual audio you're comparing. That's purely the AD converters concern. Dither! Low level differences are obscured by dither in a null. Dither where? I'm not SRC or dithering when I loop material through various cables and null test.
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Post by jin167 on Oct 14, 2016 22:47:11 GMT -6
science vs. perception/confirmation bias sometimes I wonder why audio engineers are called 'engineers' in the first place. No matter which school of engineering you belong to all engineers share one fundamental principle and it is that they make decisions based on calculations and data collected through experiments where everything is measurable. Personally, I've never seen a professional engineer who makes their decisions based on their 'perception'. Until you can prove your claim with tangible data and able to reproduce the said phenomena you remain silent and admit that you are either wrong or don't know enough about the subject. Audio engineers once had to get a degree in electrical engineering, that's why. which no longer seems to be the case nowadays.
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Post by jin167 on Oct 14, 2016 22:48:06 GMT -6
Personally, I've never seen a professional engineer who makes their decisions based on their 'perception'. Until you can prove your claim with tangible data and able to reproduce the said phenomena you remain silent and admit that you are either wrong or don't know enough about the subject. You can't just decide sound engineers aren't 'engineers', because they don't publish a 15-page report every time they reach for an EQ. Thank you for proving my point.
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Post by ragan on Oct 14, 2016 22:52:50 GMT -6
I agree about the fallibility of testing stuff. But so is measuring gear - there are people who can consistently hear "beyond" the gear. Maybe the gear is crap, or their ears are golden, or the electronic testing flawed, but they CAN hear it. I have been in tests where certain people can consistently hear what others cannot. Doesn't mean they are great engineers or producers, just that they can discern things others can't. Personally, the last person I'd trust is an electrical engineer who is not designing audio gear. (No offense meant to svart who is apparently both...) They are not trained to do and listen for the things we are. - their judgement paradigm is nothing like what we use all the time. As a matter of fact, I have quite a few friends that are electrical engineers, and they notoriously rely on educational bias and listening fail tests that everyday joe audio engineers can consistently hear with little problem. So..... To each his own. So your basic argument here is that the differences between cables that seem to null would be that null testing isn't sensitive enough, or the equipment used to do the null test at least? And also that a 100' run would reveal the HF rolloff of a cheap cable where a 20' run wouldn't? From what, capacitance? That's a measurable trait, yeah? Also, again, genuinely curious (I keep saying that because these kinds of discussions can get really edgy and I am honestly interested in what persuades certain people vs others, myself included, I have no real dog in the fight) do you think that the HF rolloff difference over long lengths (that you believe to be a differentiating factor from one balanced cable to another) is responsible for giving you the impression that one cable sounds 'better' than another? Or is it something else?
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Oct 14, 2016 23:09:27 GMT -6
Dither! Low level differences are obscured by dither in a null. Dither where? I'm not SRC or dithering when I loop material through various cables and null test. Most modern converters have dither no matter what it helps with the Filtering. Dither is our freind in recording but our enemy when trying to Measure! I have found recently playing with semi pro measurement equipment, Some that is even used by reputable manufacturers in fact recently , working on a mixer project where the EE is unavailable because of he finds him self a guest of the state of AZ, that I miss having an AP or TEF I can barrow ! I also find using a DAW or Null tests as true test instrument lacking!. Cables do matter but for the money it's tiny gains and honestly the best bargain for a quality power cable is the Parts express DIY package. I have them on my main monitoring Chain and playback system.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Oct 14, 2016 23:11:52 GMT -6
I do have to admit though I find it funny when I see a $3000 power cord plugged into a $100 outlet and the other end is plugged into the $300 iec jack of a $10000 amp!
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Oct 14, 2016 23:18:52 GMT -6
This has been very civil for a wire discussion , it would be interesting if we could get a manufacturer to lend us some cables that looked the Same one set generic wire the other highend and let us all demo blind Lock in our preferences blind and see the results. I was part of such a program 30 years ago ( I was 18) and nailed the. Higher priced speaker cables !
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Post by jakeharris on Oct 15, 2016 1:57:28 GMT -6
You can't just decide sound engineers aren't 'engineers', because they don't publish a 15-page report every time they reach for an EQ. Thank you for proving my point. Not even close; if you've never seen an engineer from any discipline make a decision based purely on aesthetics or ergonomics, then you haven't seen many. At least, not many good ones.
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Post by jimwilliams on Oct 15, 2016 10:34:34 GMT -6
"A man's got to know his limitations" ~ Dirty Harry
I love my AP, but is it not the end all nor is any other audio test rig. They find errors, sometimes. They won't tell you when something sounds good. You use it to find your design problems, fix them and re-test until you get down to the analyzer residuals (results below the resolution of the test rig). At least that's how I've always used it. Any serious designer will use this stuff. Cost is not an excuse as they can be rented.
No hi res audio test rig will qualify an audio cable. I learned that from the designers at AP and from Ray Kimber. Ray uses much more expensive and techy test rigs, like Agilent network analyzers that run to 50 mhz or more. That stuff will rip a cable design to pieces. Then it's up to the designer to find/fix the missing elements.
Eventually you must realize the limitations of all that stuff and start to listen to stuff. The human ear is capable of 360 degree echo location in real time, no hardware has been able to qualify nor duplicate that. That ear can hear minute differences, if trained to detect them. Modern conversion cannot approach that level of detection, not enough dynamic range yet. That's the flaw of null tests, they only show the limits of your converters.
As I said before, this is icing on the cake stuff. It's only to be explored when everything else is optimized. Otherwise you will chase ghosts forever.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 15, 2016 11:47:21 GMT -6
Again, when I used to test cables, I found that certain qualities became easily apparent only after days and weeks of listening. Once I was able to pinpoint something though, it became annoying all the time. Like a piece of spinach stuck in someone's teeth, you couldn't miss it if you tried.
Jim said: "The human ear is capable of 360 degree echo location in real time, no hardware has been able to qualify nor duplicate that. That ear can hear minute differences, if trained to detect them".
The "if trained to detect them" speaks to my statement above, once you can hear it, you can't unhear it. Sometimes someone has to teach you what to listen for, otherwise you'd swear there's nothing there. 20-30 years back, I used to get the nastiest responses from trolls in the audiophile world who'd swear digital is just 0's and 1's, and it's not possible for something to sound different. I'd argue on and on, and eventually jitter became an accepted factor in digital sound quality. Man, the shit I took for being ten years ahead of their ears was incredible. So, these days I keep my own advice with rare exceptions, like the gang here at Realgear. I still have much to learn, and the people here have been a big part of my growth as a songwriter trying to record decently at home.
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 15, 2016 12:20:53 GMT -6
What difference? Noise? These were just 20' runs. HF rolloff In an AC cable? Really? I think we're getting our subjects somewhat confused here. And FWIW HF rolloff in a 20' mic cable should be totally negligible unless something is seriously wrong. In a HiZ guitar cable, yes. In a LoZ mic cable, no. To get back to the subject, were it to be an actual thing I would expect that HF rolloff would be a desirable thing in an AC power cable. Theoretically line power is a 60Hz sine wave (50 HZ in other countries) There should be no HF to roll off, and any that exists ius interference/noise of one form or another. HF rolloff would work to clean up the waveform.
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Post by ragan on Oct 15, 2016 12:33:07 GMT -6
In an AC cable? Really? I think we're getting our subjects somewhat confused here. And FWIW HF rolloff in a 20' mic cable should be totally negligible unless something is seriously wrong. In a HiZ guitar cable, yes. In a LoZ mic cable, no. We were talking about balanced mic cable and he was saying 100' would reveal the limitations (HF rolloff) of cheaper cable where 20' would not. I don't share his opinion but that's what was being claimed, FYI.
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 15, 2016 13:14:03 GMT -6
In an AC cable? Really? I think we're getting our subjects somewhat confused here. And FWIW HF rolloff in a 20' mic cable should be totally negligible unless something is seriously wrong. In a HiZ guitar cable, yes. In a LoZ mic cable, no. We were talking about balanced mic cable and he was saying 100' would reveal the limitations (HF rolloff) of cheaper cable where 20' would not. I don't share his opinion but that's what was being claimed, FYI. But the thread is about POWER cables, not signal cables. Despite the superficial physical similarities they are totally different devices operating in totally different realms. A power cable is not in the audio path. It has one job - transferring raw line power from the wall outlet to the power supply of the audio equipment. Assuming a well designed and scrupulously implemented power supply the cable should make no difference as long as it is of adequate current capacity and of adequately low resistance. If there's an audible difference between reasonably good cables it would indicate the the power supply in the audio device needs improvement. That being said, it doesn't surprise me at all that there are audible differences between premium AC cables and typical OEM cables supplied with most equipment - because most OEM cables are, in fact, substandard.
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Post by drbill on Oct 15, 2016 13:54:00 GMT -6
Of course. But you know how threads morph.....
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Post by ragan on Oct 15, 2016 13:54:44 GMT -6
We were talking about balanced mic cable and he was saying 100' would reveal the limitations (HF rolloff) of cheaper cable where 20' would not. I don't share his opinion but that's what was being claimed, FYI. But the thread is about POWER cables, not signal cables. Despite the superficial physical siumilarities they are totally different devices operating in totally different realms. A power cable is not in the audio path. It has one job - transferring raw line power from the wall outlet to the power supply of the audio equipment. Assuming a well designed and scrupulously implemented power supply the cable should make no difference as long as it is of adequate current capacity and of adequately low resistance. If there's an audible difference between reasonably good cables it would indicate the the power supply in the audio device needs improvement. That being said, it doesn't surprise me at all that there are audible differences between premium AC cables and typical OEM cables supplied with most equipment - because most OEM cables are, in fact, substandard.Well even a cursory read of the posts leading up to the one you quoted would've shown that the conversation had also started to to include other types of cables. As for most AC lines being substandard, I'm an evidence guy. I don't see evidence for it. But I'm all ears if there is some.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 15, 2016 14:28:54 GMT -6
johneppstein, I know of some seriously knowledgeable folks who have in fact done listening tests of every kind imaginable, using power sources as perfect as can be gotten, and they still hear differences when comparing various brands of power cables.
*I'm honestly not trying to win an argument here, just stating my experience, and mentioning some others I know of.
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 15, 2016 21:44:35 GMT -6
You can't just decide sound engineers aren't 'engineers', because they don't publish a 15-page report every time they reach for an EQ. Thank you for proving my point. They don't teach audio in electrical engineering any more. Haven't since the late '60s.
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 15, 2016 21:49:35 GMT -6
But the thread is about POWER cables, not signal cables. Despite the superficial physical siumilarities they are totally different devices operating in totally different realms. A power cable is not in the audio path. It has one job - transferring raw line power from the wall outlet to the power supply of the audio equipment. Assuming a well designed and scrupulously implemented power supply the cable should make no difference as long as it is of adequate current capacity and of adequately low resistance. If there's an audible difference between reasonably good cables it would indicate the the power supply in the audio device needs improvement. That being said, it doesn't surprise me at all that there are audible differences between premium AC cables and typical OEM cables supplied with most equipment - because most OEM cables are, in fact, substandard.Well even a cursory read of the posts leading up to the one you quoted would've shown that the conversation had also started to to include other types of cables. As for most AC lines being substandard, I'm an evidence guy. I don't see evidence for it. But I'm all ears if there is some. Most of the ones that I've cut up have been made from pretty crappy #16 or even #18. The smallest I accept as adequate* for low power audio is #14 and I prefer #12 whenever possible. * - this isn't to say that I don't use crappy OEM cables, but it's only because I'm on a shoestring budget and can't afford to do everything in #12 with quality connectors.
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 15, 2016 22:16:40 GMT -6
johneppstein, I know of some seriously knowledgeable folks who have in fact done listening tests of every kind imaginable, using power sources as perfect as can be gotten, and they still hear differences when comparing various brands of power cables. * I'm honestly not trying to win an argument here, just stating my experience, and mentioning some others I know of. I'll stipulate to the fact that some people do hear real differences. What I'm questioning is what the actual cause of those differences might be, as a properly designed power supply (not the line supply, the PS in the audio gear*) should filter out anything that might cause an audible effect - nothing should pass the power supply except the specified voltage(s) of DC. In other words I'll stipulate that some cables may reveal deficiencies in power supply design. (Edit: a stiffer line power supply might well contribute to superior transient response on the audio side, which a higher quality power cable might contribute to, up to a point. I doubt that all trhe esoteric geometry stuff (as touted in the video) has much to do with it, just the size and the conductivity of the conductors.) The stuff about "transients" (in the line power itself) strikes me as bogus science - the power supply should not pass transients (which would fall under the definition of "noise"); a quality power supply should filter all that out. Damn, the semantics of this is getting tricky.... A slight aside - perhaps I wasn't paying close enough attention, but it certainly seemed to me that the cable maker in the video was confusing RF and magnetic interference. He was saying something about "interference from magnetic fields" which the shielding in his cable would not do squat about, unless it was Mu metal, which I seriously doubt, as Mu metal is not exactly flexible. The other thing that bothers me about those specific cables is their touting of a molded strain relief. * - I'm inclined to believe that most manufacturers of commercially available audio gear don't think it's worth the money to make a power supply with a totally clean, regulated output.
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Post by jimwilliams on Oct 16, 2016 11:09:14 GMT -6
Some of you really need to step up your game. Cruising through the new Absolute Sound 2017 buyers guide, I see a few gems.
Kimber's PK-10AG P power cable still gets rave reviews, it's a bargain at only $360 for 6'. To quote the review:
"It has a richer, thicker midrange with an emphasis on soundstage depth not unlike the top flight Paladin although not as open on vocals. Nicely detailed and uncompressed with only vague remnents of treble peak-iness, the PK10AG exempliflies an open, colorful, high density sound that places it near the top of any survey". This was the cable I reviewed at my shop, it was fantastic.
For those in the first class seats, the Crystal Cable Absolute Dream power cable will be hard to beat. Made from monocrystal silver, the 1.5 meter IEC power cable retails for only $11,000. Every rock star should own one, or two.
Benchmark, Bryston and Mytek both made the DAC lists, the Mytek Brooklyn was rated a best buy at $2000. The biggest seller for that is the MQA capability plus all the extra stuff, phono preamp, line preamps and a headphone amp that drives single ended and balanced cans. Keep in mind this is a home stereo mag, not pro audio.
Top of the list is the impressive Berkley Audio Design Alpha DAC Reference Series 2. You will not find a better DAC anywhere. At $19,500, it ought to slay the rest and it does. Any top notch studio or mastering room should have one.
Perhaps the largest factor one can take away from all this stuff is that high end audio design has transitioned from following pro audio design to leading it. The better designers are now doing high end consumer audio as there isn't the financial reward from pro audio design anymore. As long as there are enough one percenters to keep these folks employed, it will continue that way.
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Post by ragan on Oct 16, 2016 11:33:01 GMT -6
Wait, is the J. Peterman catalogue selling audiophile stuff now?
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Post by jimwilliams on Oct 16, 2016 12:33:11 GMT -6
I doubt they could keep up. You really need a nice power amp like the CH Precision M1 mono blocks. Those are only $98,750 per pair. Quality speakers are needed to match that amp like the Raido D-5.1 at $225,000 or the MBL 101 X-treme at only $263,000. You will of course need a nice preamp to feed that like the Constellation Altair II, a reasonable $78,000.
If you ever get a chance to listen to some of that stuff, don't do it. You will hate everything in your studio if you do.
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Post by jdc on Oct 16, 2016 13:26:31 GMT -6
How much do pieces like that actually cost to make? What's the markup on something like that?
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Post by drbill on Oct 16, 2016 13:34:56 GMT -6
If you ever get a chance to listen to some of that stuff, don't do it. You will hate everything in your studio if you do. I have had the chance - unfortunately. I have personally embraced a selective memory, cause as a musician, I will never own any of it, and I prefer to move forward and make music instead of crying in a small dark room, bitter about my lack of high end audiophile gear....
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Post by rowmat on Oct 16, 2016 13:35:30 GMT -6
"...For those in the first class seats, the Crystal Cable Absolute Dream power cable will be hard to beat. Made from monocrystal silver, the 1.5 meter IEC power cable retails for only $11,000..." Sounds like a dream alright... because you'd have to be asleep to believe it!
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