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Post by jin167 on Oct 13, 2016 21:52:30 GMT -6
Hmm.... I can't tell if he is genuinely excited about this product or just got paid to do this little advertisement.. www.essentialsound.com/power-cable-technology.htm had a look through their website but nothing special about the 'design' of their product and I am a little sceptical of their reasonings behind how their product 'works'. Graphs without much information. Oh and a degree in mechanical engineering... Err.. I will pass.
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Post by jakeharris on Oct 13, 2016 22:56:57 GMT -6
I can believe cables have an effect on sound. Which ones specifically, by how much, where and why, no-one seems to know. They're either too expensive for anyone to try, or those who do get them, nobody believes a word they say (expectation bias, choice supportive bias etc.)
On a personal note, was forced to test Mogami 2549 vs Gotham GAC-3 because of a problem we couldn't isolate to anything else... Found the problem followed cable type. 3x Mogami's vs 3x Gotham's, they all had a group sound. Won't get into which one did what, but they were definitely not the same.
Then comes my favourite, cable length...
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Post by jin167 on Oct 13, 2016 23:29:16 GMT -6
Depends on the context. From a circuit point of view, audio cables can be seen as filters as they are not purely resistive so depending on how it's built it could affect the signal passing through it (although unlikely given the bandwidth of the signal) but the power cable is an entirely different matter.
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 14, 2016 0:31:44 GMT -6
I can believe cables have an effect on sound. Which ones specifically, by how much, where and why, no-one seems to know. They're either too expensive for anyone to try, or those who do get them, nobody believes a word they say (expectation bias, choice supportive bias etc.) On a personal note, was forced to test Mogami 2549 vs Gotham GAC-3 because of a problem we couldn't isolate to anything else... Found the problem followed cable type. 3x Mogami's vs 3x Gotham's, they all had a group sound. Won't get into which one did what, but they were definitely not the same. Then comes my favourite, cable length... Power cables are power cables - as long as they're heavy enough for the current running through them and are in good condition there shouldn't be any real difference. What really cracks me up is the nuts claiming amazing improvements from their absurdly exspensive power cables - which are plugged into the same typically crappy building wiring (and power) as everything else.
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Post by rowmat on Oct 14, 2016 2:07:23 GMT -6
Of course 'snake oil' dipped power cables are far more euphonic than run of the mill power cables!
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Post by wiz on Oct 14, 2016 2:43:31 GMT -6
What about the wire that runs from the back of the IEC connector to the PCB of the power supply....
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by pope on Oct 14, 2016 2:56:24 GMT -6
What about the wire that runs from the back of the IEC connector to the PCB of the power supply.... Cheers Wiz After travelling through such a power cable, the electrons are much more relaxed and uplifted.
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Post by rob61 on Oct 14, 2016 6:28:19 GMT -6
In other words, Power Cables Matter
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Post by kilroyrock on Oct 14, 2016 7:29:40 GMT -6
well the difference is small enough that I can't hear it through my apple headphones, and since that's what matters, I can save 200 dollars for their entry level pro-sumer cable.
To me it was explained as if they are litz wiring the power cable?
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Post by jimwilliams on Oct 14, 2016 9:32:07 GMT -6
I did all these sort of "tests" 20 odd years ago in my old Van Nuys shop. Everyone in the room easily heard the differences. It wasn't even close like some converters. I found Ray Kimber's stuff to be the best (not suprizing as he makes great stuff and has the lab to confirm it).
His $400 IEC cable did open up the tops and low end. It was feeding a custom preamp/playback rack I used to send to my DAC's. I was also using his $400 S/PDIF cable to the DAC. Ray also sent me a IEC cable with what looked like a rat stuck in a snake's body. That one did tilt the playback response, it lowered the top and and raised the low end. I asked Ray about it's construction, but it's "super secret stuff". I did get him to admit it was some sort of polymer stuck inside that cable creating that lump.
I didn't like it so I sent it back, it's a recording studio app here, not a home playback system attempting to make a modern CD listenable.
I have some of those IEC cables around here and use them for mic preamps, etc. They help but they are the icing on the cake, you better get all the other ducks in a row first.
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Post by BradM on Oct 14, 2016 10:07:53 GMT -6
I'm with Jim on this one. I find the difference between some power cables to be on par with some converter differences. Which can be on par with swapping transformers, or op amps (discrete or IC). Heck, listening to the differences between some power cables can be much less of a mindf*ck than trying to listen to the difference between individual transistors in a discrete op amp design. Everything makes some contribution to the sound. It all comes down whether you and your wallet care about the magnitude of those difference vs. the cost. In the end I tried to balance performance and cost. I personally don't find it fun to spend $400 on a power cable. This is what I've used for power cables for critical items in my studio like my console, tape decks, monitors, and converters: emotiva.com/products/interconnects/x-iecTo connect my main power strip (PS Audio Dectet) to the wall outlet I use this beefy mofo: signalcable.com/magicpower.htmlBrad
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Post by drbill on Oct 14, 2016 10:32:07 GMT -6
I"m with Jim & Brad, although I'll say that IMO the difference is just sprinkles o the frosting of the cake. Personally, I care more about making music and other than on my console or PT rack, normal gear just gets a "decent" low cost / good quality cable. But there's no doubt that differences can be heard on some of these different designs.
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Post by rowmat on Oct 14, 2016 10:42:26 GMT -6
Sorry guys but unless you are comparing an electrically subpar cable this is a classic case of bias expectation up there with placing speakers cables on little pyramid supports aligned with Pluto.
At the risk of sounding ridiculously obvious the IEC cable carries AC mains from the wall outlet to the amplifier/gear, it doesn't carry audio signals.
On the other side of the wall socket is miles of cabling, junction boxes, transformers etc.
Now if you don't mind I'm off to spend the weekend sitting under my pyramid listening to the Alan Parsons Project.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Oct 14, 2016 10:45:27 GMT -6
The fact that they can make a shocking difference, in some cases the biggest of all wire, is really an indictment of power supplies and the quality of building wiring.
Just using a shielded power cable can make a huge difference. My all time favorite audiophile tweak is simply tightening up all of the AC connections which often haven't been touched in decades. I've also run into situations where the power company needed to tighten the transformer connections.
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Post by rowmat on Oct 14, 2016 10:45:50 GMT -6
Let's see how many would be able to consistently pick a particular IEC power cable in a double blind test?
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Oct 14, 2016 10:47:49 GMT -6
Depends entirely on the building and gear being used.
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Post by rowmat on Oct 14, 2016 11:02:55 GMT -6
Depends entirely on the building and gear being used. Which bring me right back to my 'subpar' statement. Let's assume that there are no issues with the existing AC supply such as grounding, poor connections etc and the cable is of sufficient gauge not to limit the current required by the equipment it is supplying. The claim is being made that a length, lets call it 3 feet, of AC mains cable inserted between the wall outlet and the equipment can, in many cases according to some, dramatically improve the sound of an audio system. I say this is a classic case of bias expectation and is not 'grounded' in any logic and I'm not aware of anyone EVER who was prepared to carry out double blind testing of IEC power cables. EDIT: Actually I did some 30 years ago in a Hi-Fi store I worked in. The results were so close to 50% right / 50% wrong that the test confirmed no one could consistantly pick which cable was which.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Oct 14, 2016 11:13:01 GMT -6
Why bother when it's a complete obvious no-brainer?
You can't assume it in my experience. Poor connections are everywhere as are cheezy power supplies that can't block RFI. Shielded power cables run around $10. I'm not talking about exotica. Shielded power cables can reduce the effects of RFI coming in on the power line. This is simple physics and engineering, not audiopfool mysticism.
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Post by jimwilliams on Oct 14, 2016 11:27:10 GMT -6
Building wiring does make a difference too. Contact Ray Kimber www.kimberkable.comfor his brands/recommentations for AC in the wall wiring, he has done the research and tests. As far as that old "expectation bias" stuff, that was well covered at my shop. I used many different "subjects" to evaluate and always swapped stuff without letting anyone know what I chose. I also did the "I didn't change a thing" trick several times to confirm the responses. The fact that an 8 foot run of AC cable from the wall to a piece of rack gear does make a difference doesn't dismiss the several hundred miles of cable and numerous step-down transformers the AC grid has to deliver that current to you from Hoover Dam (our AC source here in So. Cal ever since they shutt down the San Onofre nuke site). When everyone in the room turns to each other and says the same thing after hearing the same thing, that's not expectation bias, it's a response to a change. What I have found to be consistant is this: those that have done the tests hear the differences. Those that have not done the tests claim it's all BS. If you have done these tests properly and extensivly and have never detected any differences, we want to hear from you. If you have not, stick to writing works of fiction.
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Post by BradM on Oct 14, 2016 11:31:38 GMT -6
I personally would never use the word "dramatically" or "shocking". Just like I wouldn't use that word to describe the difference converters, or preamps, or DOA's make. I probably should have clarified when I said "I'm with Jim on this one." The point I personally was trying to make was that power cables can make a difference on par with other things we often concern ourselves with tweaking. I think when you are being honest it's all shades of subtle (does your wife hear the same differences you do for most things?). But our brains sometimes still respond to those subtle differences. Sometimes we care about the differences and sometimes we don't. How many of you use Hosa cables with molded connectors to plug into your microphones? Look in the mirror and you are probably scrunching your face as you read that. I think most folks at least opt for Mogami or Canare or Gotham with Neutrik connectors, right? My attitude towards power cables is the same. I at least want to use something made with quality components. There is an affordable middle ground between cheap Asian sweatshop produced and ridiculous audiophile insanity. rowmat - You are right, the AC power cord does not carry audio. But the audio that flows through your gear probably goes through active electronics that modulate electrons, which originate in the power supply. Quality audio is a function of clean power in my experience. A good power cord can keep noise from being injected into the power supply through the AC mains as Bob alluded. A good shielded Volex 17604 cable is about $12. Chop off the molded connectors and use some nice hospital grade Marinco connectors and you have yourself a really nice power cord for like $40. How much did that Mogami microphone cable cost? How many of you guys wire your studio with 99 cent outlets vs. hospital grade or contractor grade ones? Brad
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Post by svart on Oct 14, 2016 11:41:29 GMT -6
There's been plenty of double blind studies on all kinds of opinions that learned people have put forth as fact..
Wine experts can't tell the difference between 2$ and 200$ wines.
Golden ears can't tell the difference between 1000$ cables and coathangers.
Food critics gave fast-food high ratings for flavor when they didn't know it was fast food.
And as for cables.. As an engineer who specializes in power supplies and transmission lines.. Once you satisfy the requirements of the system to work properly, no further "improvement" can be expected from the system.
In no other design realm in the world is there so much subjectivity to what is "correct" than there is in the audio world. One could say that no design is actually working 100%, there is only steps leading up to "perfect" that people stop on when they've grown tired of spending money.
It's also not coincidence that the perceived increase in performance tends to diminish right around the point where people can't afford to spend more..
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Post by drbill on Oct 14, 2016 11:51:34 GMT -6
Sorry guys but unless you are comparing an electrically subpar cable this is a classic case of bias expectation up there with placing speakers cables on little pyramid supports aligned with Pluto. At the risk of sounding ridiculously obvious the IEC cable carries AC mains from the wall outlet to the amplifier/gear, it doesn't carry audio signals. If you can't hear it, then I guess it doesn't matter -- for you. But I've found that like Brad mentioned, most everything makes SOME difference. I even have an buddy with VERY good ears who pulls his outlets out of the wall once a year and uses Flitz on them to clean em up, and he swears he can hear a difference, and I 100% believe him. Once you get into these rabbit holes, how much difference, and how much it costs is what drives my decisions. Like I mentioned, other than heavy draw items, I don't really care about the IEC cable. But I DO care enough to run 10ga wire, use high quality outlets, junction boxes or power strips with quality heavy gauge wire and quality (not uber expensive) IEC power cables. Lest you think my buddy is crazy, here's a story for you. In addition to spending time polishing his audio outlets, ( ) this guy makes VERY expensive mono bloc power amps used in some of the best studios in LA. We borrowed a pair for a trade show once. He came by the booth, listened for about 15 seconds and said "WTF did you do to my power amps?". Of course, I said "nothing", and then he told me categorically that we put the wrong IEC cables on them, didn't we. Well....all the stuff was just thrown in a box and we grabbed whatever we could find. So he rummaged around, found where we had put his cables, and we proceeded too swap them out. Back and forth a few times. Each time he could tell. And this is at a freakin' trade show on the floor of AES. The worst power you could possibly imagine for audio, and one of the worst listening environments possible. And he could tell. Every time we swapped - or didn't. So....there's a difference even if you can't hear it. It's the reason after the show he went back to non-removable power cables. Too many people didn't take the time to care and would put the wrong cables on his power amps, and to him, they are works of art, and he wants them presented in their best light.... As a side note, like Jim, he prefers Kimber cables in almost any application - power or audio - if affordable.
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Post by svart on Oct 14, 2016 11:53:35 GMT -6
How many of you use Hosa cables with molded connectors to plug into your microphones? Look in the mirror and you are probably scrunching your face as you read that. I think most folks at least opt for Mogami or Canare or Gotham with Neutrik connectors, right? My attitude towards power cables is the same. I at least want to use something made with quality components. There is an affordable middle ground between cheap Asian sweatshop produced and ridiculous audiophile insanity. rowmat - You are right, the AC power cord does not carry audio. But the audio that flows through your gear probably goes through active electronics that modulate electrons, which originate in the power supply. Quality audio is a function of clean power in my experience. A good power cord can keep noise from being injected into the power supply through the AC mains as Bob alluded. A good shielded Volex 17604 cable is about $12. Chop off the molded connectors and use some nice hospital grade Marinco connectors and you have yourself a really nice power cord for like $40. How much did that Mogami microphone cable cost? How many of you guys wire your studio with 99 cent outlets vs. hospital grade or contractor grade ones? Brad I still use hosa for things. They aren't bad cables for the cost. I find that they just don't hold up around the molded ends, thats the only problem I have with them. I have 99 cent outlets in places. The rack gear goes through 6ft power strips that are wired directly to the line drops though. It's infinitely more important to keep the contacts clean on the plugs going into the outlets than it is to worry about contact pressure. Most gear uses switch mode supplies. Those rectify to DC at a higher voltage and then "chop" the DC into PWM through an isolating transformer. If you think line noise gets through that, you're not understanding the magnitude of the PWM hash compared to the noise on an AC input. You're much more likely to get ground noise onto a system than get line noise through a SMPS. The fact is, if your cable makes a difference, you probably have grounding issues, rather than power issues. Remember, ground is just another conductor for power, in this case it's conducting return currents shared with the neutral (US wiring).
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Post by BradM on Oct 14, 2016 12:02:42 GMT -6
I still use hosa for things. They aren't bad cables for the cost. I find that they just don't hold up around the molded ends, thats the only problem I have with them. I have 99 cent outlets in places. The rack gear goes through 6ft power strips that are wired directly to the line drops though. It's infinitely more important to keep the contacts clean on the plugs going into the outlets than it is to worry about contact pressure. Most gear uses switch mode supplies. Those rectify to DC at a higher voltage and then "chop" the DC into PWM through an isolating transformer. If you think line noise gets through that, you're not understanding the magnitude of the PWM hash compared to the noise on an AC input. You're much more likely to get ground noise onto a system than get line noise through a SMPS. The fact is, if your cable makes a difference, you probably have grounding issues, rather than power issues. Remember, ground is just another conductor for power, in this case it's conducting return currents shared with the neutral (US wiring). I was thinking more about linear power supplies when I made my comment, which seem to dominate in my studio filled with pre-90's gear. Maybe most newer gear uses switch mode supplies, but a lot of of stuff more than 15 years old is seems to have linear supplies. You are right--PWM hash is a much bigger deal. I took great care in the Silver Bullet design to address this so I had noise-free power rails. Brad
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Post by jeremygillespie on Oct 14, 2016 12:11:55 GMT -6
If it was really that big of a deal, why not directly wire gear straight to the panel? Would be MUCH cheaper to do, and you wouldn't have to spend $50 per cable coming from something as inferior as a wall outlet? On a new build out of course.
I feel like Gaucho sounds pretty good. I wonder what power cables they were using...
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